The 6.5 Grendel has intrigued me lately with its very good ballistics, long’ish range, low recoil and cheap to feed from a bolt gun (something like a Howa Mini Action 1500). The one negative I’ve found is that if one wants to get further out than 600 or so yards, it starts to lose steam with heavier pills such as the SMK 123 gr. bullets which can be pushed to around 2500 – 2600 fps in a Grendel. If you wanted to get a little more oomph to get to 1000 yards, couldn’t you download a 6.5 Creedmoor using a powder like H4895 which you can use to make reduced power loads to push those bullets to a solid 2600-2700 fps to get out a little further and always have the option of pushing them to full 6.5 Creedmoor speeds (and also have to option of using heavier bullets)? You could still enjoy a low recoil round and not using a lot of powder? Thoughts?
6.5 Grendel vs. 6.5 Creedmoor
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someguy2800
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A starting load of just about any powder should be in the 2600-2700 fps range. There will be more recoil with the creedmoor than the grendel at the same velocity just due to having to burn about 10 grains more powder in the larger case. I would get the creedmoor myself. More useful cartridge and available in more interesting rifles.
Dr T
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I recently went through this and came down on the side of the 6.5 CM. The issue was not trajectory or recoil, however. It was overall versatility
First, I consider (and in particular, my shoulder) consider the 6.5 CM to be a low-recoiling round. Also, since my primary use for this rifle was hunting, the trajectory out past 300 yards does factor into it.
What does matter to me is terminal ballistic performance. Heavier bullet means higher sectional density and better penetration. Whereas, where you put the bullet is more important that how fast the bullet is traveling, faster tends to be a bit better whenever there may be some mesquite tree with with a death wish in the way.
First, I consider (and in particular, my shoulder) consider the 6.5 CM to be a low-recoiling round. Also, since my primary use for this rifle was hunting, the trajectory out past 300 yards does factor into it.
What does matter to me is terminal ballistic performance. Heavier bullet means higher sectional density and better penetration. Whereas, where you put the bullet is more important that how fast the bullet is traveling, faster tends to be a bit better whenever there may be some mesquite tree with with a death wish in the way.
CoalTrain49
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You need to decide if you want economy or range. I don't shoot past 200 so .223 works for me. If I were shooting out to 500 I would have a Grendel, beyond that a Creedmoor. Downloading rifle cartridges probably isn't a good idea to save money on powder. Rule of thumb is the minimum powder charge listed in your reloading manual.
I can tell you one thing. If you shoot a lot, powder for a rifle cartridge will go pretty fast. I can go thru a lb of powder in about 2 months. A Creedmoor seems excessive unless you frequently shoot past 500 yds. BTJM.
I can tell you one thing. If you shoot a lot, powder for a rifle cartridge will go pretty fast. I can go thru a lb of powder in about 2 months. A Creedmoor seems excessive unless you frequently shoot past 500 yds. BTJM.
someguy2800
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Get into 30-06 and larger size cases and you burn a pound of powder in one sitting.
CoalTrain49
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Varminterror
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You're correct in saying a guy could light load a 6.5 Creed to Grendel specs, but I'd REALLY question why you'd want to? I personally don't think a guy gains enough by having a reduced velocity, light bullet load, rather than running the 140/147's at full speed. It's not much powder savings - you're talking about ~35grn H4895 vs. ~41grn H4350, whereas you're talking only ~28grn Benchmark or Varget under the Grendel...
To follow: I think it's very popular, albeit also very cliche' to claim a round "loses steam" or "drops like a brick" past XXX yards. It makes me laugh when I see guys regurgitate this kind of "advice," because typically, it's blatantly incorrect, and believing such nonsense stops a lot of guys from ever experiencing fantastic rounds. 600yrds is a warm up for the Grendel - I start at 500yrds whenever I take mine out, and usually end up 800-1000. Most Grendel loads meant for long range shooting will stay supersonic past 1,000, typically somewhere in the 1,100 to 1,200yrd mark. If a guy knows his load, owns a suitable ballistic calculator app, and has a laser rangefinder, the only hard parts are accurately reading the wind and pulling the trigger.
Slower rounds drop more per range than faster rounds. More aerodynamic bullets lose velocity slower than less aerodynamic bullets. The 6.5 Grendel can't run as fast and can't handle bullets as heavy and aerodynamic as the Creedmoor case. Does that mean the Grendel can't be used at long range? Nope. Does it mean the Creedmoor has a more long-range-friendly trajectory? Yup. But that flatter trajectory comes at a cost - I run more powder and lower barrel life in 6.5 Creedmoor, and considerably more recoil. What I get for that price is less drop and wind drift.
While it's not a 6.5 creed vs. Grendel, here's an example of "Creed vs. Grendel" from a couple weeks ago. Below is a side by side comparison in impact between a 6mm Creedmoor and 6.5 Grendel, at 875yrds (NOTE: The 3 on the bottom of the 6 Creed target were sighters, first time having it at this range, followed by a 0.2mil elevation correction, then the group). Target is 12"x20" 66% IPSC. Note - the 6 Creed load is a light load, running 2916fps with an SD of 6 and ES of 24 with the 105 Berger Hybrid, while the 6.5 Grendel is factory Hornady Black with an ES of 78 and the 123 ELD-M, pushed to 2562 avg. The relative splatter size is indicative of how hard we're hitting, and the plate swing response and audible "DING" are equally different between the two. Both of these rifles are sub-moa at 100yrds, somewhere 0.4-0.7MOA on most outings from a bipod and bag, prone - but you can see how the ES starts contributing more vertical dispersion into the group. My job as the shooter was more difficult with the Grendel, because I had to pick my shots more closely to match the selected wind condition, but you can see, despite considerably more drift, I didn't have much more drift dispersion with the Grendel than the Creed. It's not impossible to manage, just easier with a faster, more aerodynamic round.
The 6.5 Grendel is a fun little round, and I happen to really LOVE the idea of a 6mm AR/Turbo/FatRat to get even more range out of the x39/Grendel case. I've used Grendel AR's for a few PRS type and "Sniperggedon" type long range matches (prone troop, hit to advance to next 100yrds). I readily admit, running a 6.5 Creedmoor or 6 creed, or even a 6 dasher puts me at an advantage over the Grendel, but the Grendel can hang - it just puts more burden on the shooter. If I miss a 1MOA target out to 800-1000yrds with either of my Grendel AR's, it's because I pooched it, not any fault of the rifle or cartridge.
To follow: I think it's very popular, albeit also very cliche' to claim a round "loses steam" or "drops like a brick" past XXX yards. It makes me laugh when I see guys regurgitate this kind of "advice," because typically, it's blatantly incorrect, and believing such nonsense stops a lot of guys from ever experiencing fantastic rounds. 600yrds is a warm up for the Grendel - I start at 500yrds whenever I take mine out, and usually end up 800-1000. Most Grendel loads meant for long range shooting will stay supersonic past 1,000, typically somewhere in the 1,100 to 1,200yrd mark. If a guy knows his load, owns a suitable ballistic calculator app, and has a laser rangefinder, the only hard parts are accurately reading the wind and pulling the trigger.
Slower rounds drop more per range than faster rounds. More aerodynamic bullets lose velocity slower than less aerodynamic bullets. The 6.5 Grendel can't run as fast and can't handle bullets as heavy and aerodynamic as the Creedmoor case. Does that mean the Grendel can't be used at long range? Nope. Does it mean the Creedmoor has a more long-range-friendly trajectory? Yup. But that flatter trajectory comes at a cost - I run more powder and lower barrel life in 6.5 Creedmoor, and considerably more recoil. What I get for that price is less drop and wind drift.
While it's not a 6.5 creed vs. Grendel, here's an example of "Creed vs. Grendel" from a couple weeks ago. Below is a side by side comparison in impact between a 6mm Creedmoor and 6.5 Grendel, at 875yrds (NOTE: The 3 on the bottom of the 6 Creed target were sighters, first time having it at this range, followed by a 0.2mil elevation correction, then the group). Target is 12"x20" 66% IPSC. Note - the 6 Creed load is a light load, running 2916fps with an SD of 6 and ES of 24 with the 105 Berger Hybrid, while the 6.5 Grendel is factory Hornady Black with an ES of 78 and the 123 ELD-M, pushed to 2562 avg. The relative splatter size is indicative of how hard we're hitting, and the plate swing response and audible "DING" are equally different between the two. Both of these rifles are sub-moa at 100yrds, somewhere 0.4-0.7MOA on most outings from a bipod and bag, prone - but you can see how the ES starts contributing more vertical dispersion into the group. My job as the shooter was more difficult with the Grendel, because I had to pick my shots more closely to match the selected wind condition, but you can see, despite considerably more drift, I didn't have much more drift dispersion with the Grendel than the Creed. It's not impossible to manage, just easier with a faster, more aerodynamic round.
The 6.5 Grendel is a fun little round, and I happen to really LOVE the idea of a 6mm AR/Turbo/FatRat to get even more range out of the x39/Grendel case. I've used Grendel AR's for a few PRS type and "Sniperggedon" type long range matches (prone troop, hit to advance to next 100yrds). I readily admit, running a 6.5 Creedmoor or 6 creed, or even a 6 dasher puts me at an advantage over the Grendel, but the Grendel can hang - it just puts more burden on the shooter. If I miss a 1MOA target out to 800-1000yrds with either of my Grendel AR's, it's because I pooched it, not any fault of the rifle or cartridge.
Agree with most of what was said. I do realize that the bullet doesn't fall out of the air past 600 in the Grendel - didn't mean to imply that (thanks to things like JBM ballistic programs). The range I go to weekly in the summer in 20 min. away and has target holders out to 200 yds and steel out to about 230yds. My Rem 700 SPS Tac in .223 (shooting 75 gr. BTHP's in a 1:9 twist barrel) works wonderfully there and there's a 300 yd. range a little further. No need for a larger caliber (can shoot 1/2 MOA at both ranges if I'm doing my part). There is a 600 yd range I'd like to try this year 2 hrs away and I know the .223 gets close to transonic around 600 yds. so I was thinking a larger caliber. There is also a 1200 yd. range a few hours away I've never been to and might like to try, and my .223 isn't ideal for that, hence larger calibers (and an excuse to purchase a new stick!).
Lastly, recoil isn't that big a deal. My .223 obviously has almost no recoil, and I can shoot my 1895 45-70 all day with 300gr. handloads at 1200 fps. A .308 has more recoil than I'd like from a bench shooting a reasonable amount of rounds in a day (I only target shoot, no hunting). Thanks for all the opinions!
p.s. not thinking of either 6.5 in an AR platform. Would get it in a bolt action.
p.p.s. Varminterror, the left swinger is the 6mm Creed, right is the Grendel?
Lastly, recoil isn't that big a deal. My .223 obviously has almost no recoil, and I can shoot my 1895 45-70 all day with 300gr. handloads at 1200 fps. A .308 has more recoil than I'd like from a bench shooting a reasonable amount of rounds in a day (I only target shoot, no hunting). Thanks for all the opinions!
p.s. not thinking of either 6.5 in an AR platform. Would get it in a bolt action.
p.p.s. Varminterror, the left swinger is the 6mm Creed, right is the Grendel?
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In a bolt gun 6.5 Creedoor 10 times out of 10. I don't see any reason to shoot anything lighter than 130 gr and prefer 140+ in the Creedmoor. If I want to shoot lighter bullets then I'd go with a 243/6mm rifle of some type. If I wanna shoot cheap out to 300-500 yards 223/5.56 is hard to beat.
In an AR-15 platform the 6.5 Grendel is the only option that I'd consider instead of 223/5.56. I think the 6.5 Grendel turns the AR into a legitimate big game rifle out to ranges farther than most will shoot. It's not that the Grendel is a bad choice in a bolt gun. But I can't figure out what it does better than the Creedmoor in a bolt gun.
In an AR-15 platform the 6.5 Grendel is the only option that I'd consider instead of 223/5.56. I think the 6.5 Grendel turns the AR into a legitimate big game rifle out to ranges farther than most will shoot. It's not that the Grendel is a bad choice in a bolt gun. But I can't figure out what it does better than the Creedmoor in a bolt gun.
adcoch1
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As much as I like mini actions, if I was pushing range at the bench, I'd probably opt for the 6.5 creedmoor. Even though it burns more powder and has more recoil, both are manageable differences, and the heavies in the creedmoor have amazing flight paths. I want a Grendel in an ar, but for a bench gun I'd go creedmoor and never have to wish I had more oomph on steel or paper. Just my thoughts though.
Varminterror
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??? Either bad info or a really bad load. ???
My 73 ELD load is supersonic to 1,000; 900 with a 77SMK from 20” barrel. Even my lowly 50 Vmax plinking/Coyote load is supersonic to just under 800. I shoot 223/5.56 at 600-900 about once a month; the 69 or 77 SMK, or 73 ELD get there with a smile on their face. Same discussion as above, however, the steel impacts aren’t big, and the ding and swing aren’t very prounounced. The recoil is low enough to spot for yourself, but it’s nice to have a spotter on a higher zoom to pick up the smaller signature. But it’s still fantastic practice to run the 223/5.56 out long. My newest 5.56 20” AR has only ever been fired shorter than 500yrds once, only when sighting in.
Yes, the left target with larger impact splatters is the 6 creed; the right, as in our right, with smaller impact splatters is the 6.5 Grendel.
The Grendel in a mini-action bolt gun would be a hoot. I just happen to have mine in AR’s. There are other boutique cartridges I would pick first for a bolt gun, but none are really as readily available for ammo, brass, or dies as the Grendel. 6mm BR, PPC, XC, and Dasher all come to mind for me. But for a non-wildcatter, non-competitor, the Grendel in the Howa mini-action is very, very nice.
If you own a 223rem, and have the range access you describe, and have no other purpose for the rifle, then skip the Grendel. If you were coyote hunting and occasionally going out to 1200, the Grendel is ok. But your 223rem should do just fine to 600yrds, even in a 1:9” barrel, so you’re really just buying a 1,200yrd rifle... the Grendel is OK there, but the Creedmoor is better (and cartridges in its class).
Varminterror, I don't know what was going on in my brain that translated to the keyboard, but you are absolutely right, my Hornady 75 gr. BTHP reloads will stay above 1000 fps just past 1K yds. They'll get blown around by the wind alot, but will make it there. I know they shoot F class at 600 yds with .223's. I imagine it is difficult to see hits with a .223 at 600 yds., but I will try before spending $'s on a new rifle. Thanks for the responses!
cdb1
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I wasn’t interested in the Grendel for a long time. I was then interested in it for about six months but recently I lost interest in it again. It is too much of a tweener to me. Is does a number of things well but is great at nothing in my mind. I’d much rather have an AR in 5.56 and one in 6.5 Creedmoor.
Varminterror
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I forgot to address this earlier, noticed again on revisiting this thread:
Neither the Creedmoor or Grendel will have as much recoil as a .308win, but you might be using the wrong scale for recoil. We aren’t talking about a scale of, “I can take it,” it’s a scale of, “I never lose sight of the target so I can spot trace, splash, and impact.” The 6.5 creed is incredibly mild in terms of recoil tolerance, but for some shooters, it does cross a line for spotting your own shots. I usually don’t have any trouble spotting with 6.5 (sans brake or can) once I get to about 700, where my recoil impulse is over before my bullet reaches the target. Super easy at 1,000. At 400 and under, my muzzle jump is usually enough to rattle my view just enough to not spot for myself. It does hit hard enough to elicit a lot of target response, so that helps. The 6.5 Grendel, I can watch in the scope at any range. With a 308win, fuggedabowdit, I’m calling a spotter if I need to shoot less than 1,000, other than a heavy rifle.
Newtosavage
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outstanding points and I love the honesty.
Damon555
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I chose the 6.5 Grendel for 3 reasons......(of course your interests might vary but hey, we're here so I might as well give some input)
First of all I wanted a round that would fit in an AR15 platform and hit much harder than the 223. I've been through the AR10 phase and found the rifles just too big for my purposes....Mainly shooting predators, varmints and 600+/- yard target shooting. The Grendel fit the bill......even better than the 6.8 SPC which is a fine round too but I wanted a much shorter case to be able to load the long 6.5mm and 6mm bullets to mag length and not eat into case capacity as much....Plus the bullet selection is huge for those two compared to the .277 caliber offerings.
Next I'm already heavy into a very accurate, long range 6mm caliber that I shoot from a bolt action rifle...the 6XC, which is very similar to the CM version.....and I have lots of 6mm bullets....which lead me to purchase a 6mmAR upper at the same time as the Grendel. I figured, heck, it's so simple to form the 6mmAR brass I might as well get one of those too!
Then there is always the possibility of a 22AR....which is the 6mmAR necked down to 224 caliber. It has just as much oomph as the Valkyrie and guess what? I've already got most of the stuff to load it too.....
Hey, if you want the 6.5 CM go for it....If I was shooting it exclusively from a bolt gun there'd really be no need to even consider the Grendel. But as I mentioned, I wanted it on the AR15 platform.
Here's a little comparison of a few of my not so common rounds....(that 6mmAR is just plain cool IMO)
P.S. If you reload you're options are limitless. There are a lot of great new cartridges out there just begging to be formed this way, that way or any other way you like for that matter!
First of all I wanted a round that would fit in an AR15 platform and hit much harder than the 223. I've been through the AR10 phase and found the rifles just too big for my purposes....Mainly shooting predators, varmints and 600+/- yard target shooting. The Grendel fit the bill......even better than the 6.8 SPC which is a fine round too but I wanted a much shorter case to be able to load the long 6.5mm and 6mm bullets to mag length and not eat into case capacity as much....Plus the bullet selection is huge for those two compared to the .277 caliber offerings.
Next I'm already heavy into a very accurate, long range 6mm caliber that I shoot from a bolt action rifle...the 6XC, which is very similar to the CM version.....and I have lots of 6mm bullets....which lead me to purchase a 6mmAR upper at the same time as the Grendel. I figured, heck, it's so simple to form the 6mmAR brass I might as well get one of those too!
Then there is always the possibility of a 22AR....which is the 6mmAR necked down to 224 caliber. It has just as much oomph as the Valkyrie and guess what? I've already got most of the stuff to load it too.....
Hey, if you want the 6.5 CM go for it....If I was shooting it exclusively from a bolt gun there'd really be no need to even consider the Grendel. But as I mentioned, I wanted it on the AR15 platform.
Here's a little comparison of a few of my not so common rounds....(that 6mmAR is just plain cool IMO)
P.S. If you reload you're options are limitless. There are a lot of great new cartridges out there just begging to be formed this way, that way or any other way you like for that matter!
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Varminterror
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I do agree with Damon, the 6mm Grendel variants are slick as gooseshit. I’m leaning towards a 6 FatRat myself.
WelshShooter
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I believe that the 6.5mm Grendel is short enough to work in an AR-15, whereas 6.5mm Creedmoor will not. The difference in OAL using the same calibre bullet means less powder capacity and therefore less velocity. If you're looking at a bolt action rifle with no size constraints, why would you not consider the 6.5mm Creedmoor?
Varminterror
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Following this logic - why would you consider a 6.5 creedmoor? A 6.5 Swede will do more from a bolt gun than the Creed.
No wait - same logic - a 6.5-284 will do more than the Swede. Why consider the Swede?
No wait, not the 284, the 6.5-06 does more... No wait, 6.5 PRC, no... the RSAUM... wait, why mess with low BC 6.5mm bullets? Go up to a 300 Rum and spank any of the 6.5’s... wait, a 338 PEdge is better still... ooh, the 375 Lethal!
Where do you draw the line for enough “more?”
fireman 9731
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The ability to enjoy a mini action is the draw towards the Grendel for me. I like guns built around the cartridge they are chambered for.
WelshShooter
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A very valid point, but let me explain why I replied the way I did. But also re-read the OP's post and think about what they are actually asking.
First of all, the OP has specifically asked for a comparison between two calibres, so I will assume that the OP already has a plan to incorporate these calibres into their build.
Secondly, the OP has mentioned the Howa mini action. I don't know the specifics for what cartridges are suitable for this action, so to hazard a guess I would assume its something akin to the mini Mauser action of the CZ 527 or a small action Remington 700. Therefore, suggesting an alternative calibre, such as 6.5x55, would not be practical for such an action as it is a large round and may not fit the Howa mini action.
And to answer your question, I would draw the line at "whatever the OP has suggested." I often hear people buying a rifle that's par for the course, and sometimes saying "I wish it had a bit more power" or something along the lines. I don't often hear "this rifle is too powerful, I wish I went for something with less power", therefore my suggestion was to go for the bigger one
(Whatever relevance it is, but I'm a 6.5x47 Lapua guy)
Varminterror
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Yes to the former, no to the latter, as the 700 is not a mini, it's a short action.
The CZ527 "Mini Mauser" and the Howa Mini action are capable only of ~2.26" cartridges, so they won't even swallow the 6.5 Creed's 2.80" coal. The 6.5 Creed has to be fed into a true short action, not a "mini" action. So the OP wasn't considering only the Mini Howa. Including a true short action gives access to a lot more "more" than the Creedmoor (accidental pun), but if the Grendel is enough, then more is just more.
The entirety of long range sport shooting, save the ELR guys, have been going with less powerful rounds - aka lower recoil rounds - for decades, hence the advent of rounds like your x47. US military did the same almost 60yrs ago, and the Soviet's followed suit over 40yrs ago. I met a pro-shooter at a recent PRS club match who had gone from an x47 to a 6 Fat Rat, for that very reason. One of our other pro's ran a 6 creed last season, built a 6.5 PRC this season, but has been shooting his 6 Dasher so far, only because he's wanting a lighter, faster rifle with less recoil. I've been a big Dasher fan, which I do use as a practice rifle, but my match rifle is a 6 creed. Low recoil, and enough power. 6.5 PRC is "more," and would fit the same action (interchangeable bolt heads in the Havak action), but it's a lot more recoil than I need too.
WelshShooter
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Ah, thanks for the clarification, I didn't realise the mini action cut off for OAL's was lower than the Creedmoor's OAL. It would make sense then that if the OP desires only a mini action that the Grendel would better fit the bill. I have the CZ 527 and know about its cutoff length, but I always thought that was specific to 223 and not to the rifle itself (ie different length magazines).
I am aware of the trend to use lower recoiling calibres, as I did quite a bit of reading up 2 years ago when I was deciding which calibre I should select for my custom rifle build. I find the 6.5x47 cartridge in my setup to be an almost perfect balance between recoil and long range performance. Off topic I know, but curious all the same.
I went back and read your post about your experience with the Grendel (overlooked during my above posts), and this is interesting (regarding velocity). I've never really thought of it in the way you've put it, but I guess that has come with your real world experience of the two calibres side by side. I will take this opportunity to disregard my opinion as you have provided facts to back your opinion. Ps no sarcasm is intended in this post.
I am aware of the trend to use lower recoiling calibres, as I did quite a bit of reading up 2 years ago when I was deciding which calibre I should select for my custom rifle build. I find the 6.5x47 cartridge in my setup to be an almost perfect balance between recoil and long range performance. Off topic I know, but curious all the same.
I went back and read your post about your experience with the Grendel (overlooked during my above posts), and this is interesting (regarding velocity). I've never really thought of it in the way you've put it, but I guess that has come with your real world experience of the two calibres side by side. I will take this opportunity to disregard my opinion as you have provided facts to back your opinion. Ps no sarcasm is intended in this post.
horsemen61
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Ttrl I want one of both have the Creedmoor already
Varminterror
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Same here - but with a 6mm grendel variant. I LOVE the idea of the Mini Mauser or Howa Mini, but I just can't get myself to buy one. I know I'd want a mid weight, maybe a little heavier barrel, and I'd drop it into a chassis or a McMillan or Manners stock, kitted for long range positional shooting... basically ruining the allure of a short, light, fast action... Maybe an MDT LSS with a Proof barrel, to keep the weight down?
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