6.5 has made obsolete my rifles

[LNF150]

I get the creedmoor. Owned one for a year, shot the hell out of it, killed one deer w/ one shot and sold the gun no regrets. To me it is a very good round with excellent factory ammo offerings and it also reloads very well. These days, I pay zero attention to all the hype. It's a 'been there, done that' type of thing.

That said, I went back to a cartridge I really enjoy which is the 7mm-08.

I believe the 6.5 creedmoor is here to stay. It is a very shootable cartridge at an affordable price (as opposed to ultra magnums) and Hornady has done an excellent job marketing it.

 

[Legionnaire]

I shot a 6.5 Creedmoor for the first time today, from a friend's Ruger American Predator. I liked it. Then I shot my .308 Remington 700 LTR. I liked the .308 better. Granted, we were limited to 160 yards. Both guns/cartridges are stupid accurate at that range. But the RAP is no comparison to the LTR.

However, as my friend is new to bolt action rifles, I think his choice of a 6.5 Creedmoor is spot on. It will serve him extremely well for a long time. And when I eventually shoot the barrel out of the LTR, I might rebarrel it in 6.5 Creedmoor. We'll see.

 

[jmorris]

The 6.5cm just like the chevy LS engines have a firm hold on the market and will only continue to grow in popularity.

But now the LS is the old one and the LT is the new and improved.

There is a huge difference in management, lots of improvement in cylinder head technology, dynamic cam timing and such with all of the “new” engines vs their older counterparts. Not as drastic as comparing Orville and Wilbur’s plane to a G500 but the same kind of analogy.

We are talking about different shapes of a brass case and diameters of projectiles with everything else being more or less the same, why it’s not magical and not going to be the death of every other round out there.

A more proper analogy would be why didn’t the Phillips, Allen, Robinson, Torx headed screws put an end to flathead screws? As they are all better designs in otherwise the same thing.

 

[someguy2800]

A more proper analogy would be why didn’t the Phillips, Allen, Robinson, Torx headed screws put an end to flathead screws? As they are all better designs in otherwise the same thing.

I sure wish they had lol.

 

[someguy2800]

But now the LS is the old one and the LT is the new and improved.

There is a huge difference in management, lots of improvement in cylinder head technology, dynamic cam timing and such with all of the “new” engines vs their older counterparts.

Even all the technology on the LT is not new. The motor I drag race with has used cam phasing since 1992. Works great, spools the turbo like you wouldn’t believe. The DI and DOD are of course also borrowed from elsewhere. I know you know that but in any case again I’m not trying to draw a technical parralel, the parralel is in how people view it and either reject or adopt it. There are still racers I know that think the LS motors are pointless.

 

[Llama Bob]

The 6.5CM is far from being done in terms of popularity. It's just in the last year or so becoming available in most hunting type arms and it's replacing a lot of sales in the low-SD calibers around it - .243, 257, and .277. This is as it should be - fast twist and high SD are simply advantages for a hunter just as much as a long range shooter.

We can talk all we want about WHY the surrounding calibers were crippled with slow twists and light bullets, but the reality is they were, and 6.5CM is sweeping the field as a result.

 

[Bushpilot]

it's [the 6.5CM] replacing a lot of sales in the low-SD calibers around it - .243, 257, and .277. This is as it should be - fast twist and high SD are simply advantages for a hunter just as much as a long range shooter.

There are no "low-SD [sectional density] calibers." A lot of guys think that some bore diameters just shoot flatter than others. There are no magic bore diameters.. You can make high-SD bullets in any of the bore diameters that you mentioned without driving bullet weights up to the point that they kick too much to shoot well and STILL shoot flatter than your 6.5 CM all the way to 1000 yards and beyond. That's because the 6.5 CM is a little soft on power.. Even shooting much lower B.C. bullets these guns can shoot flatter than the 6.5 CM at any practical hunting range...

 

[Llama Bob]

There are no "low-SD [sectional density] calibers."
View attachment 802807

False.

Look at the SDs of the hunting bullets in .257 vs those in .264 and get back to me.

 

[Llama Bob]

Oh, and no one gives a darn about how flat something shoots anymore. Everyone under 50 bought a range finder already

 

[someguy2800]

False.

Look at the SDs of the hunting bullets in .257 vs those in .264 and get back to me. Or don't bother, because I'm just right.

Now if only sectional density actually meant something

 

[Llama Bob]

Now if only sectional density actually meant something

Sectional density drives penetration. It's not the ONLY thing that matters, but it is one of the major factors. And there's no question whatsoever that something like the 160gr weldcore or 140 A-Frame in .264 will out-penetrate ANY hunting bullet commercially available in .257. For those who primarly hunt larger game, that matters. Combined with the higher ballistic coefficients that come with higher sectional density, and it's easy to see why the 6.5mm are sweeping the floor with their competitors.

 

[Coal Dragger]

Oh, and no one gives a darn about how flat something shoots anymore. Everyone under 50 bought a range finder already

Strangely enough I agree. The laser range finder and the modern high end scope with accurate repeatable turrets, ballistic reticles, or both have made getting elevation calls right easier than ever. Still have to dope wind, but those long high BC bullets that retain velocity not only drop less but time of flight is shorter and the wind has less time to drift the round.

So what you need for smacking targets at long distances isn’t raw velocity, you need enough to stay supersonic out to distance and extreme repeatability. So low standard deviations on velocity, combined with good quality high BC bullets put through a good barrel mounted to a properly bedded action with high quality glass.

Not that raw hot dirty speed is a bad thing, but it’s not as mandatory as once thought.

The 6.5 Creedmoor delivers on repeatability, the short case gives a consistent combustion chamber making I easy to achieve low standard deviations in velocity. The case has a nice neck with enough length to achieve consistent neck tension and seat the bullet without intruding into the case where powder needs to combust. As designed it’s short enough to load those long high BC bullets and still fit in a standard short action magazine. All of that makes for a nice turn key solution for non reloaders, and a pretty nice platform for a guy or gal who wants to reload.

The same can all be said for the also excellent 6.5X47 Lapua. Really the two are ballistic twins.

The 6.5 Creedmoor isn’t hype, nor is th 6.5X47 Lapua. They’re just very refined purpose driven cartridge designs that happen to offer a lot of versatility. They benefit from modern computer aided design and modeling.

I won’t claim they’re 800 yard game cartridges, because they don’t carry that kind of raw power downrange. Plus that kind of “hunting” is questionable from an ethics standpoint in my mind. As a sniper rifle round, or long range target round both are great. As a reasonable distance game round they work great too.

 

[Bushpilot]

Look at the SDs of the hunting bullets in .257 vs those in .264 and get back to me. Or don't bother, because I'm just right.

What you are is just wrong....... As I said , there are no magic bore diameters, "You can make high-SD bullets in any of the bore diameters that you mentioned." Make an ELD for the 25/06 at about 130 grains, or the 270 at about 155 and their BC's and SD would be just as high as the 143gr 6.5CM's...... Sure, the example I copied and pasted show the 6.5 as having a higher BC because of current bullet mainstream availability, NOT BECAUSE THE 6.5mm BORE DIAMETER IS AERODYNAMICALLY OR PHYSICALLY SPECIAL IN ANY WAY... Nevertheless, even with the handicap of less VLD/ELD bullet selection they still shot flatter and beat the 6.5CM's trajectory out past 600 yards, beyond which the 6.5CM doesn't have enough energy to do much anyway......

Oh, and no one gives a darn about how flat something shoots anymore. Everyone under 50 bought a range finder already

You wanna bet that no one cares about how flat a rifle shoots??? That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard anyone say on here in quite some time.... Most smart hunters would agree that the greater the maximum point blank range and the less hold over required, either by optical adjustment or sighting holdover, the better.....

 

[someguy2800]

Sectional density only describes a projectile before it expands.

You wanna bet that no one cares about how flat a rifle shoots??? That's one of the silliest things I've ever heard anyone say on here in quite some time.... Most smart hunters would agree that the greater the maximum point blank range and the less hold over required, either by optical adjustment or sighting holdover, the better.....

I have a rangefinder, tricky thing is to get the coyotes to stand still a minute so I can range them and consult my chart, so yes I care about flat shooting.

 

[CraigC]

IMHO, people are awfully weird about what they think is being "hyped". New stuff comes along, fact of life. New stuff needs to be marketed to be successful, fact of life. You don't have to buy one, fact of life. However, there are very real, tangible things the 6.5CM and Grendel have going for them. The CM shoots as flat as the .300WinMag out to 1000yds with less recoil than the .308. Long range precision shooting is what it's designed for. So it has very little taper, a sharp shoulder and long neck. This coupled with a fast twist for 140gr bullets makes it better at the job than the 6.5x55 or .260Rem. Maybe marginally so but the market was there for such an incremental increase in performance. It also happens to be a great hunting cartridge that is capable of taking the same game as any of the .308 class of cartridges with less recoil than the .308 and much greater capability than the .243, just as the .260, 6.5x55 and 6.5x54MS that came before it. That's not hype. Does that mean you should trade your tried & true deer rifle for a 6.5CM? That's a personal choice. It's another option and that is never a bad thing.

The Grendel simply puts similar performance into the standard AR15 platform. Which makes it infinitely better for deer sized game than the .223, with greater effective range than the .300BO, .450 or .458. That's not hype either.

What I don't get is how people are always so goofy about new stuff. Our way of life is in a constant battle with the lunatic left so ANYTHING that gets more people interested in what we do is a good thing.

 

[CraigC]

Sectional density is critical in determining penetration. A 140gr 6.5 and a 140gr .308 is not going to behave the same way in live tissue.

There are absolutely low sectional density calibers and that boils down to twist rate. If SAAMI specs call for a twist rate that is not compatible with heavier bullets, then the result is a low SD cartridge. Like the .243. If the .243 had a faster twist, there would be little need for the 6mmCM. Same with most of the .25's.The history of the 6.5's is one of heavy for caliber bullets.

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that the 6.5CM is not a long range hunting cartridge. It's a long range target cartridge. Its effective range on game would be similar to any .308 class cartridge. So I'm not sure why so many are talking about its long range capability on game.

 

[Garandimal]

The 6.5 CM...?

6.5 Creedmoor Versus 270 Winchester​

Not on my watch.




GR

 

[Bushpilot]

The CM shoots as flat as the .300WinMag out to 1000yds with less recoil than the .308.

So do a lot of other cartridges if the right bullets and ROT barrels are used...

There are absolutely low sectional density calibers and that boils down to twist rate. If SAAMI specs call for a twist rate that is not compatible with heavier bullets, then the result is a low SD cartridge. Like the .243. If the .243 had a faster twist, there would be little need for the 6mmCM. Same with most of the .25's.The history of the 6.5's is one of heavy for caliber bullets.

So, would you call a 5.56/223 a "low sectional density caliber," of course not, it's more variable. My point is that anybody can build a 243, 25/06 or 270 along with others that will shoot flatter than a 6.5CM ever could at long range and some factories are already offering ROT options on their rifles. Yet to hear the way people talk about about the 6.5 CM you would think it's some miraculous new break through and the "perfect cartridge for all of North America's game".... Hardly, in reality as far as hunting is concerned, it's just another cartridge in the 25-30 caliber pack... ... Actually, what has really changed is the shooting sport. More people are shooting at longer ranges than ever before and all of the other great, flat shooting cartridges just haven't been optimized for the longer distances by the major factories yet... Did you see the link I posted about the guy winning 1000 yard gold with a 243?

Sectional density is critical in determining penetration. A 140gr 6.5 and a 140gr .308 is not going to behave the same way in live tissue.

Once expansion starts, if it does, then it's every bit as much about bullet construction as SD. You can't really compare a 140 6.5 with a 140 .308.... It's more likely that whatever your shooting with a 140 6.5 you would be shooting with a 165 or 180gr 308... Then take into consideration over penetration. If both the bullets in question go zipping through the game from side to side I'll take the slightly bigger hole the 180 gr 308 makes along the way......

IMHO, people are awfully weird about what they think is being "hyped". New stuff comes along, fact of life. New stuff needs to be marketed to be successful, fact of life. You don't have to buy one,

No, you don't have to buy one, you just have to listen to all the noise all the time.... As I said before in an earlier post, I think the 6.5CM is a good long range target round and a good hunting round at normal hunting ranges. I've actually shot several quite a lot although I don't own one. I just get tired of the hype that surrounds it and thats what it is too, hype. -to promote or publicize (a product or idea) intensively, often exaggerating its importance or benefits

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that the 6.5CM is not a long range hunting cartridge. It's a long range target cartridge. Its effective range on game would be similar to any .308 class cartridge. So I'm not sure why so many are talking about its long range capability on game.

That's part of the hype... Didn't you know that the 6.5 CM is the latest and greatest 600 or 700 yard Elk cartridge? Yeah, I didn't either and I still don't..

 

[someguy2800]

The 6.5 CM...?

6.5 Creedmoor Versus 270 Winchester​

Not on my watch.




GR

That’s a good objective article and I think it really boils down what the all the hoopla really is about for the non long range shooters, the recoil. Here in Minnesota typical hunting ranges for deer are less than 200 yards, often less than 50, and even people hunting on bean fields are rarely shooting past 300. I occasionally get shot at yotes out to 500 but that’s not typical. In spite of that I’ve been recommending the 6.5 to a lot of people for deer because it’s such a good balance of recoil and delivering a decent bullet weight on game at these distances. If your not recoil sensitive a 270 or 06 are awsome, but for the recoil sensitive we always used to recommend 243’s. I really like the 120+ grain bullet weight for deer so I’ve never like 243 for deer. Yes a 260 would also be great but I can’t recommend that to someone because rifles in that clambering are uncommon and Ammo is near nonexistent locally. 6.5 creedmore is chambered in pretty much every rifle now and the ammo selection is awsome so it really makes the perfect whitetail cartridge for those not wanting 270 or 06 recoil levels.

 

[Llama Bob]

One thing that needs to be pointed out is that the 6.5CM is not a long range hunting cartridge. It's a long range target cartridge. Its effective range on game would be similar to any .308 class cartridge. So I'm not sure why so many are talking about its long range capability on game.

It certainly offers some additional practical hunting range compared to the .308 - especially the 1:12" twist. I'd say probably an additional 100y vs. 1:12" and maybe 50y vs. 1:10" averaging across commonly used bullets. The higher BC bullets get there faster and drift less, and those are the most important factors in pushing out farther ethically since wind and animal movement are enemy #1.

 

[Llama Bob]

What you are is just wrong....... As I said , there are no magic bore diameters,

Nope, I'm exactly right. Show me the high-SD .257 bullets. You can't. When you understand why you can't (and there's a very simple reason), you'll understand why I'm right

 

[Llama Bob]

The 6.5 CM...?

6.5 Creedmoor Versus 270 Winchester​

Not on my watch.




GR

Ron's wrong. The 145 ELD-X won't achieve it's advertised BC out of the 1:10" twist .270. The .270 looks a lot worse when checked on radar.

 

[Bushpilot]

Nope, I'm exactly right. Show me the high-SD .257 bullets. You can't. When you understand why you can't (and there's a very simple reason), you'll understand why I'm right

Well Bob, Richard Graves made 130gr,142 (700 B.C.)and 150's in .257
Wildcatt Bullets makes 125 130 and a 156gr .257 with a B.C. of about 800
Matrix still produces 165gr (.738 BC) and 175gr (.782 BC) .277 bullets.
Matrix Ballistics is coming out with 135gr ULD .257
Berger makes a 180 gr .277 bullet for the 270 Win
How much higher do you need Bob?

 

[Dibbs]

Ever since just after WWI, cartridge "developers" have been creating new calibers which were all supposed to make obsolete the 30.06.
Help me out here, what's the most popular hunting cartridge on the shelves at the sporting goods store, with the greatest selection of bullet weights
and tips?

 

[Eagle103]

6.5 creedmore is chambered in pretty much every rifle now and the ammo selection is awsome so it really makes the perfect whitetail cartridge for those not wanting 270 or 06 recoil levels.

Don't forget the 7mm-08. It could also be considered the perfect Minnesota whitetail round.