7mm Rem v Wby

[ExAgoradzo]

Quote from Terminal balistics Research on the WBY cartridge:
"The 7mm Weatherby has almost identical case capacity to the 7mm Remington Magnum. The major difference between the two, is the design of the rifle chambers. The Weatherby rifle chamber features a long free bore while the Remington is quite the opposite, in some instances almost strangling its loads."

So, If I had a quality rifle (WBY is famous for making quality rifles!), and took said Rem 700 (for example) to extend the factory freebore) I would be that much closer to the WBY improvement over the Rem and have the far more widely available and cheaper ammo.

This is a question, not an assertion: input on it would be greatly appreciated!

Greg

 

[.308 Norma]

So, If I had a quality rifle (WBY is famous for making quality rifles!), and took said Rem 700 (for example) to extend the factory freebore) I would be that much closer to the WBY improvement over the Rem and have the far more widely available and cheaper ammo.

Sorry ExAgoradzo, I'm a little confused about the "far more widely available and cheaper ammo" part. If a person could have a 7mm Rem Mag's chamber worked over so that it would have as much freebore as a 7mm Wby Mag's chamber, thus making the 7mm Rem Mag perform like a 7mm Wby Mag (and I'm not saying it's possible, or even practical) the gain in performance would only happen with handloaded ammo - not "far more widely available and cheaper" factory ammo.
At least that's the way I see it. But maybe I'm wrong. I've been wrong once before.

 

[LoonWulf]

I agree, and it would be rifle specific. If you took a 700 7mm gave it a longer throat, you might actually see a loss im velocity with factory ammo, as the initial pressure spike and possibly peak pressure, would not be the same as with a shorter throated barrel.
Also If you worked up loads in a rifle with a long throat and freebore, especially with heavy bullets, you would likely end up with rounds too long to function in another rifle. They might generate enough overpressure to cause some serious problems as well.

That said, if your willing to deal with those issues, and you have the magazine space to load bullets out to get every little bit of case capacity possible, you might be able to make some noticeable gains.

Im seriously thinking about that approach with the .264 im considering building.

 

[Sunray]

Somebody(Here, I think. Brilliant, wherever it was.) coined the term, 'The Wal-Mart Test'. If Wally World doesn't have it, don't buy it.
The chances of finding anything with the word Weatherby in its name in some place like Pop's Gun Shop in Frozen Boot, ND are slim at best. And just having 'Weatherby' on the box increases the price. 7mm Remington Mag, on the other hand, is far more wide spread. Cabela's lists 1 brand of Weatherby ammo. Weatherby oddly enough at $39.99 per 20. 27 brands for the Remington Mag. That starts at $21.99 per 20.
No need for either of 'em(or any magnum) in North America anyway.
"...WBY is famous for making quality rifles..." If they actually make it themselves. Mind you, Howa, who has been churning out Vanguards for eons, do it well.

 

[LoonWulf]

Somebody(Here, I think. Brilliant, wherever it was.) coined the term, 'The Wal-Mart Test'. If Wally World doesn't have it, don't buy it.
The chances of finding anything with the word Weatherby in its name in some place like Pop's Gun Shop in Frozen Boot, ND are slim at best. And just having 'Weatherby' on the box increases the price. 7mm Remington Mag, on the other hand, is far more wide spread. Cabela's lists 1 brand of Weatherby ammo. Weatherby oddly enough at $39.99 per 20. 27 brands for the Remington Mag. That starts at $21.99 per 20.
No need for either of 'em(or any magnum) in North America anyway.
"...WBY is famous for making quality rifles..." If they actually make it themselves. Mind you, Howa, who has been churning out Vanguards for eons, do it well.

Great deal of truth in the Walyworld test...
That might bring us to another advantage to the long freebored 7rem, much like the AI rounds you can still shoot normal ammo through it. If you happen to loose your superspecial hot loads, you can still buy a box of cheap over the counter ammo, then re-sight and hunt.

As odd as it may sound coming from someone in hawaii, I have no issue getting any of the Weatherby cartridges here, even the .240. Again tho theres still 45-75, and 30-40 Krag on the shelves too......

One thing i didnt think about till now.
Execution on the chambering and throating (as youll likely need to use a separate throater), will likely be more critical than with a short throated barrel. I dont think id do it with a stock chambered barrel.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I didn't think there was any question about the assertion that 7Rem is more widely available and cheaper than the 7WBY... though, as to your point, If I am loading hot/long Rems then it is moot whether it is Rem or WBY. Agreed.

I just keep trying to talk myself into a WBY or STW or now a Nosler. But I keep coming back to, 'how much real world advantage is there when the cost is figured into the equation'... Probabky not much. I met an AK guide and he told me in 30 years he never used anything but a 7mm Rem with 175 core locks. Seems pretty good recommendation.

Greg

 

[horsey300]

I didn't think there was any question about the assertion that 7Rem is more widely available and cheaper than the 7WBY... though, as to your point, If I am loading hot/long Rems then it is moot whether it is Rem or WBY. Agreed.

I just keep trying to talk myself into a WBY or STW or now a Nosler. But I keep coming back to, 'how much real world advantage is there when the cost is figured into the equation'... Probabky not much. I met an AK guide and he told me in 30 years he never used anything but a 7mm Rem with 175 core locks. Seems pretty good recommendation.

Greg

The nosler gets you 200 fps more than the other two with 175 gr bullets, on paper that comes out to maybe another 100 yds farther.......I can't say I hate dad's ol stw, but any of the 3 at practical distances won't be distinguishable and honestly, the weatherby is getting you stw performance with just a little less powder the rem Mag is doing it with even less powder and still putting the 175s out there within 60fps of the weatherby.....soooooo really, between the 3 older cartridges, there's just not enough difference to spit at. That does NOT mean you don't need a new rifle.... in fact, I'm pretty sure you DO need a 7weatherby so that you can set a whole new set of weatherby worthy goals that all the other lesser chambering would wilt away from.

 

[mshootnit]

If there is anything in my safe also available at Wal mart it is purely coincidence, and if I am ever short of any cartridge or component in the field it is due solely to my own lack of preparation and forethought, not what might be available on a local shelf. This is America. You have an excellent and varied marketplace to get whatever you want. You can preserve it by exercising that privilege instead of resorting to the laziest lowest common denominator of just getting what is available at one local big store. Get what YOU want. For me that means getting and stocking up on what I think is the best or coolest. And since I stock up, I dont care who has it on a shelf.
I do not want either of those cartridges, but I do generally like Weatherby, especially since they are both long and have a belt.

 

[FN in MT]

Wally World test....WHY limit yourself?

Ridiculous in my opinion.

 

[Dr T]

Ummmm...I bought 5 or 6 boxes of Reminton 300 WBY Mag cartridges with 180 gr Corelok bullets at the Walmart in Rockwall, Texas, back in the mid-90's. Just sayin'...

 

[LoonWulf]

If there is anything in my safe also available at Wal mart it is purely coincidence, and if I am ever short of any cartridge or component in the field it is due solely to my own lack of preparation and forethought, not what might be available on a local shelf. This is America. You have an excellent and varied marketplace to get whatever you want. You can preserve it by exercising that privilege instead of resorting to the laziest lowest common denominator of just getting what is available at one local big store. Get what YOU want. For me that means getting and stocking up on what I think is the best or coolest. And since I stock up, I dont care who has it on a shelf.
I do not want either of those cartridges, but I do generally like Weatherby, especially since they are both long and have a belt.

I agree, and Ive always bought or built what interested me with little regard to what was available, I handload after all. But If i hunt anywhere away from home, Ill likely take my 06 or 7Rem just because if my ammo gets lost, damaged, dropped etc i can still get something that will work without a whole lot of trouble.

But now that I know the purpose of the original question. I say theres no PRACTICAL reason to get one of the other 7s if you already have a rem......But, i own an STW not because its practical, hell i form cases from 300wby, but because i wanted to try it. If you want to try one of the other 7s i say scratch the itch!
As to which one, Id go with whose ever rifle you like better.

 

[cdb1]

Wally World test....WHY limit yourself?

Ridiculous in my opinion.

I agree. Plus Walmart is ALWAYS out of something they do carry and you never know what it's going to be.

 

[FN in MT]

I've taken rifles chambered in oddball rds to South Africa, TWICE. A .338-06, and a .280 AI . You break up a few boxes of the oddball ammo into your luggage. As long as one bag makes it, so does at least a box of ammo. No issues either time. ALL luggage showed up. SAA is not like flying one of our US carriers. A bit more professional.

On the 2nd trip I sent a few boxes over by UPS. So I knew I had ammo before I even left.

I had a .375 H&H as a backup, a common ctg over there.

 

[cdb1]

On the 2nd trip I sent a few boxes over by UPS. So I knew I had ammo before I even left.

How long ago did you do it? UPS and FEDEX will not do it currently.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

I don't own any 7 at all at the moment. I was reading the TBR site and found that quote and was wondering what would happen if you lengthened the free bore on the Rem. I was thinking, perhaps this little addition will make the two closer in reality. The same question could be asked of the AI I suppose: you'll get some added performance, is it 'worth' it.... well that is an individual decision. I just wanted to see what you thought about that guy's quote re: freebore.

Thanks again,
Greg

 

[FN in MT]

How long ago did you do it? UPS and FEDEX will not do it currently.

Last trip was back in 2000. NO issues sending a few boxes of ammo over along with some clothing I wanted to give to a friend over there.

Things probably have changed, but using your noodle a little will allow one to get the ammo there without too many issues.
Like I said... South African Airlines, IS NOT Delta or United. They seem to be a bit more professional. Your bags go ON in Miami...get taken off in Capetown or JoBurg. There are no connections.

 

[cdb1]

Cool beans.

 

[MistWolf]

How do you make more velocity without increasing pressures to dangerous levels? Increase powder capacity and use more powder. It's as simple as that.

I agree, and it would be rifle specific. If you took a 700 7mm gave it a longer throat, you might actually see a loss im velocity with factory ammo, as the initial pressure spike and possibly peak pressure, would not be the same as with a shorter throated barrel.

There will be a loss in velocity. Using a longer throat increases effective case capacity. This is how the 5.56 makes more velocity compared to the SAAMI spec 223 Remington. This is why 223 ammo makes less velocity in a 5.56 NATO or 223 Wylde chamber compared to a SAMMI spec 223 Remington chamber. It's also why firing 5.56 NATO spec ammo in a SAAMI spec 223 Remington chamber.

Note: There is anecdotal evidence to suggest makers no longer use a SAAMI spec 223 Remington chamber. It also makes sense. Using chambers with longer throats is simply safer

Also If you worked up loads in a rifle with a long throat and freebore, especially with heavy bullets, you would likely end up with rounds too long to function in another rifle. They might generate enough overpressure to cause some serious problems as well.

If you load the bullets out to meet the lands, you lose part of the advantage of using a longer throat. Part of the secret is that the longer throat gives the bullet more of a running start before it engages the rifling. The extra momentum makes it easier for the rifle to start engraving the bullet which means the pressure spike is lower and less steep. But, if you seat the bullets closer to the rifling, the bullet speed is less and it take more push to get the bullet started. The pressure spikes right where the bullet has the greatest resistance right when it hits the rifling.

You can increase the the throat of the 7mm Remington Magnum to increase velocity without excessive pressure, but you have to load the ammo right to take advantage of it. Factory ammo will have less velocity because the longer throat effectively increases case capacity which will lower pressure

 

[LoonWulf]

Last trip was back in 2000. NO issues sending a few boxes of ammo over along with some clothing I wanted to give to a friend over there.

Things probably have changed, but using your noodle a little will allow one to get the ammo there without too many issues.
Like I said... South African Airlines, IS NOT Delta or United. They seem to be a bit more professional. Your bags go ON in Miami...get taken off in Capetown or JoBurg. There are no connections.

That sounds much nicer than here, ive had my coolers get lost flying home before. This was a 30min flight from maui, my bow case made it, but my coolers ended up in Kauai. Took a couple days to get them back, so all the meat i had in them was rotten.

 

[ants]

ExAdgorazdo, I think you might be missing a technical point here.

Weatherby cartridges run higher pressure. 7mm RM is 61,000 max where Wby is 65,000 max.
Also, Wby case capacity is larger, allowing larger charges of slower powder.

The technique Weatherby uses to mitigate the extra pressure is to cut the chamber leade longer.
Since the bullet travels a bit longer before engaging rifling lands, the extra pressure is delivered
over a longer period of time avoiding a dramatic and sudden increase within the chamber.
So the Weatherby chamber is cut differently to accommodate that cartridge's special characteristics.

Simply cutting a 7mm Remington Mag chamber longer doesn't automatically make
the Remington cartridge the same as Weatherby, it won't automatically achieve the Wby result.

I own both, and find the 7mm Rem Mag cartridge very effective with less recoil.
But the Weatherby gets higher velocity for every bullet weight, if that's what you need.

Select a cartridge to meet your needs. Figure your needs first, then the cartridge.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

Thanks guys,
Those two were the answers I was looking for. Still learning: always willing to get input!

God bless America!
Greg

 

[redneck2]

From time to time we see guys that try to make a smaller cartridge perform like a bigger one.

"If I load my .30-06 to higher pressure, I can get .300 WM performance". Maybe, for a while. Until it blows up. I guess I can't see the wisdom of Bubba in his basement thinking he's smarter than the trained engineers that design firearms for a living. What kind of test equipment you use? None? That's what I thought.

There are laws of physics that can't be dodged. A given pressure in a given bore size behind a given bullet gives a resultant velocity. You can make the case longer, shorter, change the shoulder angle. Doesn't much matter

The Ackley thing gets me. You're gonna go to the expense of having your rifle rechambered to a non-factory round? Lose probably 1/2 it's value, for maybe 20-30 fps?

I guess I just always figured that, if I want more speed I buy a rifle that's designed that way from the start. Just remember that everything comes at a price. 25% more powder gives a 10% increase in velocity. Also an exponential increase in barrel wear. And more recoil. And muzzle blast

Years ago Handloader Magazine had an article about a .50 BMG necked down to .30 caliber. Barrel life was measure in dozens, not thousands or even hundreds of rounds.

 

[old heeler]

Thanks guys,
Those two were the answers I was looking for. Still learning: always willing to get input!

God bless America!
Greg

If you look at loading data from Nosler 7mag/7Wby there is no much different in max loads between them considering how much more powder the 7 Wby uses and both have 24" barrels. It's the same with Berger data and they used 26" barrel. If you look at Hodgdon data for 7mag/7Wby they both used 24" barrels and max load for the 7mag using 150gr Partition @ 68gr/H-1000,max load @ 2936fps and same bullet for the 7 Wby max load of 79gr/H-1000 @ 3223fps. Hodgdon also used 180gr Berger VLD for both and max for 7mag using 69.5gr/H-1000 @ 2884fps and 7Wby 72.1gr/H-1000 @ 2939fps.

When you look at the amount of powder difference how much does the Wby freebore factor in.

 

[paulsj]

Average european would be better served with 7x64 and average american with .270 winchester. The only Weatherby that would give me thought of ownership would be .257 or .270 made on FN Mauer Supreme action. Don't care for the rest.

 

[ExAgoradzo]

So, I did what you told me, I went to Berger and Nosler I looked at 150 and 175 gr bullets (Nosler info seemed more complete and comprehensive). If you want the king of speed, go with Nosler. If you want the best bang for your buck, it is hands down the Remington. Powder to speed ratio, which equates also to recoil, and to the matter of availability (I can call myself a reloader, but only barely: I still need more experience and probably coaching to boot...the Wally World test still applies to me).

Not exactly in the market at the moment, but kind of a dream. I only get a rifle about every two years and I just got my .375 H&H (no, it isn't practical, but it is a hoot!!!) this Spring, so I've got a while.

Thanks again for the input!

Greg