91/30 Mosin-Nagant for $69.99?

[Old Time Hunter]

People, this is not my speciality but a local sporting goods store has a very nice 91/30 on sale for $69.99. Usually I would not look twice at one, but this one was especially clean. Very few handling dents, no wood splices, stock all a very consistant color, very bright bore with sharp rifling. The muzzle appeared to be recently crowned. I could not resist and told the young lady I'd take it. Right about then one of my co-rifle club members walked up and said "nice rifle, but thought you would never buy a foreign gun", I responded by saying "it looks too good for the price, I'll shoot it and if I do not care for it I'll donate it to the club Christmas raffle". The gal behind the counter promptly said "sir, I can not sell you this rifle, it is both against store policy and the law if I knowingly sell you a rifle that you MIGHT give away". Anybody, is this true? I even promised that I would destroy it instead of giving it away. She still refused to sell me the gun.

 

[joab]

The girl is an idiot or has been taught by an idiot

On the back of the form 4473 ,that she IS legally bound to have filled out by you, is a full description of what constitutes a legal buy given in third grade English

You can purchase a firearm with your own money and give it to anyone you want to
You cannot buy a firearm with money supplied to you by another person with the intent of buying a firearm for that or another person

I would call corporate after you tell us the name of the store

 

[Hoppy590]

You can purchase a firearm with your own money and give it to anyone you want to
You cannot buy a firearm with money supplied to you by another person with the intent of buying a firearm for that or another person

you can purchase a gun with anyones money. and may give a gun to anyone legaly able to have purchased it on thier own.

meaing if your friend, who may or may not be legaly able to buy a gun wants to give you money to buy a gun to keep for yourself. everything is on the level.

as is my understanding

 

[DMK]

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#b14

(B14) May a parent or guardian purchase firearms or ammunition as a gift for a juvenile (less than 18 years of age)? [Back]

Yes. However, possession of handguns by juveniles (less than 18 years of age) is generally unlawful. Juveniles generally may only receive and possess handguns with the written permission of a parent or guardian for limited purposes, e.g., employment, ranching, farming, target practice or hunting.

[18 U.S.C. 922(x)]

Slightly different situation, but proves you can buy a firearm then gift it away.

Think about what she was saying. If she were right, you'd have to own all your firearms for life and could never transfer them to anyone else.

 

[DMK]

you can purchase a gun with anyones money. and may give a gun to anyone legaly able to have purchased it on thier own.

meaing if your friend, who may or may not be legaly able to buy a gun wants to give you money to buy a gun to keep for yourself. everything is on the level.

Hoppy, by the "spirit of the law" you are right. However, due to the way the ATF created the forms, the 4473 specifically asks if the gun is for your use. If you are buying it as an agent for someone else (ie. using their money to buy their gun), you are committing perjury. If that question was not on the form, it probably would not be illegal.

http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/transcripts/ltfour.htm

CARLA
Do straw purchases only involve underage customers?

MR. LUCAS
Not always. A straw purchase is a purchase in which the actual purchaser uses someone else—a.k.a. the “straw person” to make the purchase and complete the paperwork. Generally straw purchasers are utilized because the actual purchaser is not eligible to conduct a transaction because they’re in one or more legally prohibited categories, such as being addicted to a controlled substance, being a felon, being underage, and so on.

However, a straw purchase occurs even when the actual purchaser is not a prohibited person. The crime committed is knowingly making a false statement on the Form 4473 indicating that the straw purchaser is the actual purchaser, when this is not the case.

 

[George S.]

Wait until there is another clerk on duty and buy it then . Wherever she got her information, it's not correct especially based on what you said.

BTW, that's a good price for a 91/30 in the condition you described. I have a 1931 Izhevsk 91/30 with a hex receiver that I picked up for $80. I did have to clean the bore somewhat, but it's not counter-bored or recrowned and it will shoot 10' groups at 200 yards with Czech silvertip 147gr ball. Not bad for a "foreign" gun that's also 76 years old.

 

[joab]

you can purchase a gun with anyones money. and may give a gun to anyone legaly able to have purchased it on thier own.

You must purchase the gun with your own money

meaing if your friend, who may or may not be legaly able to buy a gun wants to give you money to buy a gun to keep for yourself. everything is on the level.

If your friend gives you money then that money is now yours

If he allows you to hold it with the intention of buying a firearm for himself or another then you are committing a straw purchase

That form I was talking about specifically states that the firearm must be purchased with your own money

Anybody signing a federal document with legal ramifications should read that document in it's entirety

 

[Hoppy590]

see below.

 

[Hoppy590]

right here is a scan of a 4473. with the definition of "actual buyer"
http://www.ocshooters.com/Gen/Form-4473/ATF-FORM-4473-pg3bg.gif

says that purchased with your money, for you=ok
purchase with anothers money, for you= ok
purchased with your money for legal other(gift)= ok
purchased with other money, for another(legal or not)= not actual buyer

but theres no real way for them to know whos money it is.

 

[Bazooka Joe71]

Funny you mention its a 91/30, I went to buy one from a local shop(notice I don't say "my" local shop) and after filling out the 4473, and handing him my license, I found out it was expired. I was just going to give my buddy, whos license wasn't expired, the money to buy it but the clerk said no.

 

[joab]

but theres no real way for them to know whos money it is.

But we're not supposed to say that here

I found out it was expired. I was just going to give my buddy, whos license wasn't expired, the money to buy it but the clerk said no.

That would be a definite straw purchase, even though you are not the type that the law is aimed at

 

[joab]

purchase with anothers money, for you= ok

If another gives you money to purchase something for yourself then the money is gifted to you and is yours, therefore you are using your money not another's money

There is no mention in the scenarios presented of Mr White giving Mr. Pink money to buy a gun for Mr. Pink

There is nothing to read into, that just gets you into trouble with governmentaltypes

Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to buy a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money.
Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer and must answer no to question 11a.
The licensee may not transfer the gun to Mr. Jones
However if Mr. Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is the actual buyer and should answer yes on 11a

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Talked with the store manager...it turned out to be her. She says that it does not matter what the law actually says, she has the right to refuse to sell to whom she wants. She also said that she had the same issues when she was a sports department manager at Wally World, she would not sell to people she knowingly belonged to shooting clubs, it was against her principles. If you are a private person, using it exclusively for hunting, she does not have a problem with that.

Oh yea, she said it was not as much the comment specifically about giving it away as a Christmas raffle gift as when my bud walked up and said "what the heck are looking at more guns for...betcha you have over a hundred now". After that he made the comment about me and foreign guns. Today she said "there is no reason you can give me to warrant me selling you this gun"

Now for the real caveat of this entire episode...she originally had ten of these 91/30's and one of her people sold six of them to another dealer (he could not get them at this price, the national store bought thousands). She fired that person.

 

[joab]

Time to call corporate and see if their business model fits her personal agenda
She has no right to inflict her personal prejudice on the people she is asking to contribute to her paycheck

Tell us the name of this store, there's a lot of consumer power on this board

 

[Old Time Hunter]

Dunham's

 

[joab]

Whew,
I was afraid you were going to say Gander Mountain

But we don't have them down here, they seem to big widespread in your area so are THR members

This rogue definitely needs to be brought to the attention of the upper management

 

[v8stang289]

I agree with joab, you need to go over her head. Her personal opinions should have little inlfuence on whether or not you can purchase the gun.

 

[offthepaper]

she would not sell to people she knowingly belonged to shooting clubs, it was against her principles. If you are a private person, using it exclusively for hunting, she does not have a problem with that

------------------------------------------------------------

Huh?
I've heard of PETA (people for the ethical treatment of animals).
But this jewel is a member of PETP? (PEOPLE FOR THE ETHICAL TREATMENT OF PAPER?)

I completely agree with Joab. report her to the store's HQ. While you have their attention, give them a good grilling as to whether this is the stores rules, corporate rules, her personal rules, her dog's rules, whatever. Don't settle for mumbo jumbo, get a concrete answer and explanation from them. With her personal views on who should/should'nt buy FA's from her store, I have to wonder, HOW DID SHE GET THE JOB AS STORE MANAGER TO BEGIN WITH?

As already stated, this forum has a certain amount of consumer power. Please post as to what the corporate response is, because I for one will forever boycott their stores if this is allowed to stand. Also please post the name and contact info of the person you speak to at HQ. I would'nt be a bit surprised if they were also contacted by concerned THR members. This was just plain wrong. It almost sounds to me as if she is one of those who enjoy flexing her "manager muscle".

 

[weaselchew]

As he was telling the story, I was thinking "I wonder if this was at a Dunham's". If you do a search you'll find other people have had many problems with this store, demanding ID,addresses for ammo purchases, refusing sales, company policy to call in all firearms purchases to HQ in addition to the standard check (so if you want to buy a firearm when HQ is busy/out, tough!)

The one and only time I bought a rifle there (black friday special) I had to come back up to pick it up during the week and the store employee had to follow company policy by walking the boxed firearm outside and handing it to me then - who knows what mayhem might occur if a customer gets ahold of a firearm they purchased INSIDE the store!

EDIT: It's a shame they put their customers through all this when they are one of the few chain stores that get milsurps in at typically good to really good prices. You'd think if they really didn't want to sell guns, they'd axe the milsurps

I wish we had Big 5's around here instead of Dunhams....

 

[cracked butt]

I wish we had Big 5's around here instead of Dunhams

Me too.
In the upper midwest, mainly Wisconsin and Minnesota, we have a store called 'Fleet Farm' which is a farm supply/hardware store. They stock milsurps (usually higher grade ones than Dunhams as well) and often times have rediculously good sales when they want to close out on an Item. I bought a unissued Yugo SKS there for around $160, a prewar 91/30 (had century 'excellent condition' hang tag) for $79, and a Savage Enfield for $120 (another HighRoader near me bought one as well).

 

[DMK]

So she won't sell firearms to anyone who belongs to a shooting club (some ranges require you join their club to shoot there don't they), she won't sell firearms to anyone who owns more guns than she deems 'reasonable', and she won't sell firearms to a federally licenced dealer, all because it's "against her principles"?

What a wacko.

She really needs to find another line of work.

 

[KHAN]

OTH, as others have stated you need to call and email corporate with her name and the situation. I hate high-browed power freaks that have absolutely no clue. Let us know what corporate says.

 

[SomeKid]

That story is...astounding.

Maybe a discrimination lawsuit would be in order?

 

[5.56_Spartan]

A friend recently picked up one of these at our local Dunham's.

Not a bad gun for $75 with tax.

We were shooting just under 4" at a 100yds with Mil-sup ammo. That was as good as I was doing with my Garand that day.

Hope you can get it. Enjoy

 

[joab]

But don't get it from them

The price is good but principles are worth more.

They are selling all day online for $69.99 if you have a C&R and you can usually find one for less than $100 at any gun show