9mm 1911 Feeding Problems -- Magazine Related

[The Bolt Man]

1911 Feeding Problems -- Magazine Related

I am sure this subject has been beat to death, but I have to ask.

What is the perfect timing of cartridge release from the magazine for best feeding of a 1911? My Dan Wesson PM 9 with factory supplied magazine and two Wilson Combat Mags causes the bullet nose to slam hard into the barrel ramp while still being held in the lips of the magazines. Factory ammo and hand loads with OAL of 1.100" and 1.125" are a problem as are some rounds that are even shorter.

I am begining to hate what I think is called a "Timed Release Magazine". Instead of the old 45 ACP type mag lips that are tapered outward from rear to front these timed release mags have parallel lips to a point that opens up abruptly releasing the cartridge. It appears to me few if any of these mags are timed properly for most pistols or the various types of ammo.

It appears to me the magazines do not release the cartridge soon enough. I tried a couple of my 38 Super mags and one brand (no name on mag) works perfectly. That magazine releases the cartridge just as the bullet nose starts to touch the barrel ramp and it slides up into the chamber and up the face of the slide and under the extractor in a nice smooth feed. It seems to me this would be the more desirable type of feed. Much better than the clunky slam into the ramp followed by the bullet nose slamed into the top of the chamber while the cartridge is trying to be bent in two over the top radius of the ramp and base trying to move up the slide face.

This slam bam clunky feed is a problem with bullet set-back or deep seating in anything other than extremely tight bullet retention. The problem is better or worse depending on bullet nose shape. The more pointed the bullet nose, the easier it slide into the chamber after getting beat up on the ramp.

Again, "What is the perfect type of feed for the 1911"?

 

[.45Heater]

Try using a Tripp mag or Trip rebuild kit in your old mags. I assure you they will get the round up there in time. What lb. recoil spring are you useing and how many rnds with that spring? The angle of the follower will also come into play.

 

[JimPGov]

Egw makes a special mag catch that holds the mag higher in the frame. That should eliminate your problem. Jim

 

[Jim Watson]

Is this an integral ramp barrel or a standard 1911 type with jump from frame ramp to barrel ramp?

Both of my SA 9mms with integral ramp barrels had to be recontoured to feed reliably. My Colt with standard barrel got a routine polish but probably did not need even that.

My favorite 9mm magazine is the Metalform 9 round .38 Super with their fully guided convex follower; but I need 10 rounds for IDPA ESP and that is taking some work.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Jim,

The Dan Wesson PM 9 has the intergal barrel ramp like your SA. I have no way of knowing the angle of the ramp is correct. The gun did go back to Dan Wesson for evaluation and repair. The original barrel had been improperly fitted.

A new barrel was fitted and their master gunsmith went through the gun with a fine toothed comb and polished everything possible in addition to custom fitting where possible. I assume the barrel ramp angle was checked out at that time.

JimPGov,

The magazines can not be raised or they interfer with the slide closing. That is not the problem.

.45Heater,

Tripp magazines are what was sent with the gun.

To ALL,

All of your answers, suggestions and questions are appreciated. Funny though, as with most posts of the forums, The original question I presented never got answered. Lets try again. If I have the perfect magazine for the ammunition I am using, where would the bullet nose be in regard to the barrel ramp when the cartridge is released from the magazine?[/COLOR]

 

[Jim Watson]

I am away from my guns and cannot give you a description of what one that works looks like.

I will comment that integral ramp barrels in 1911 mutants are designed with worship at the altar of "case head support" and no corporate gunsmith will move their typically too-steep angle back towards what the gun was designed for. Polishing won't get the job done unless you are lucky.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Jim,

Considering your comment about the intergal ramped barrel, I am even more convinced a magazine that releases the cartridge just before the bullet nose contacts the ramp is necessary. Also, if there are 9mm magazines available in the Colt Hybrid model that is supposed to feed the cartridge a bit higher at the point of release could help smooth up the feeding of my PM 9.

 

[Jim Watson]

You said:

"I tried a couple of my 38 Super mags and one brand (no name on mag) works perfectly."

I said:

"My favorite 9mm magazine is the Metalform 9 round .38 Super with their fully guided convex follower"

One of our local shooters tried some of my Super magazines and said:

"...purchased 9-round Metalform .38 super mags (rounded follower) and solved all my reliability problems."

That is the best bandaid I can offer. Gil Hebard has the best price on them (309)289-2700

My FLG might could cut that integral ramp down to where it would function as a feed ramp as he did on my Springfields, but he doesn't take mailorder.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Jim,

Thanks for looking at a couple of your magazines

Before I give up completely, I will ask one more time for opinions and or answers to my unanswered question.

If I have the perfect magazine for the ammunition I am using, where would the bullet nose be in regard to the barrel ramp when the cartridge is released from the magazine?

I have this question on another forum and have had the same response. No answer to the question which should be easy. Either a person has no idea or has had some experence and could suggest what worked best. Just a lot of this is what usually causes your problem.

Jim, you have indicated a 38 Super mag has worked for you and that is what I have tried and it seems to smooth up the loading cycle a lot. In my case this 38 Super mag releases the cartridge a matter of a few thousands of an inch before the bullet nose hits the ramp. This is working for 9mm cartridges that are 1.100" to 1.125" long. The Tripp 9mm mags have .150" of the cartridge base still held in the mag lips when the bullet nose hits the ramp and the Wilson mags are far worse with .330" cartridge base still held in the mag lips.

The wilson mags refuse to lock the slide open, even after attempts to bend and tweek the follower so it would work. The followers are too narrow for the tube and just keep skipping aside of the slide stop. Different followers should fix this problem or these two mags will be my next target.

For those of you that may be wondering why I chose the Dan Wesson Pointman 9. I had purchased a Dan Wesson Pointman 7, 45 ACP about five years ago. I have always liked the 1911 style pistol and the PM 7 really caught my eye. The PM 7 was by far the easiest 1911 I have ever broke in. In less than 400 rounds it was shooting like a champ, very accurate and shoots anything I can chamber without any problems. It remains as tight after nearly 10,000 rounds as it was after 1000. This is just pleasure and personal target shooting, no compitition.

My desire for a better 9mm than my trusty Spanish Star BM was an easy choice when the oppertunity to buy a Dan Wesson PM 9 presented its self. I jumped at the chance thinking my luck with the PM 7 would continue. In some ways this PM 9 is not as bad as it sounds. It is a tight and very accurate pistol, but it would be my last choice as a self defense firearm. I worked my butt off working up loads that cycle the gun well and are accurate. I have fired over 4000 rounds total to get to the point I am at now. I have a limited number of loads that are accurate and cycle well. Even though the cycling is good with a number of loads, it could be better, smoother.

It would seem to me the 1911 is not a very good platform for a 9mm cartridge and I am left with having to compensate for a problem rather than fix it. I guess finding the magazines that match the desired load and bullet is the only band aid fix available to me. It could be I will be looking for another 9mm in the future.

Thanks again.

 

[rbernie]

Sounds like you need the Springfield/Leatham mags. Mine have been boringly reliable over tens of thousands of rounds thru Kimber and Springer 9mm 5" 1911s.

 

[Oro]

It would seem to me the 1911 is not a very good platform for a 9mm cartridge and I am left with having to compensate for a problem rather than fix it.

I don't think that's an accurate statement. What I think you could safely say is that ramped barrels in the 1911 are not necessarily an improvement. Basically, there's nothing about the platform that makes it caliber-specific in it's basic design than the limitation of cartridge length impose by the mag well. Like Jim Watson pointed out, the ramped barrel is likely the culprit, they are about case support, not reliability. I've had two (.40 and .45), and both were problematic.

As an aid to your problem, have you tried Colt magazines? My 9mm commander has a standard barrel, but they provide great reliability in it. They are not comparable to Colt .45 hybrid magazines; they are more akin to a wadcutter design in that they have parallel lips and then a very abrupt release, and they release very quickly.

To answer this question:

If I have the perfect magazine for the ammunition I am using, where would the bullet nose be in regard to the barrel ramp when the cartridge is released from the magazine?

All magazines are going to have most of the exposed projectile inside the chamber when the lips let go of the round. Bear in mind the bullet's nose is almost at the ramp when sitting in the magazine before any forward movement occurs. The projectile will be mostly into the chamber before the magazine hands off control of the round to the extractor.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Oro,

As you have suggested with the Colt magazines, quicker release of the cartridge can aid a better feed cycle. Jim also indicate the same without putting it in words when he said he found some 38 Super magazines worked better. I found the 38 Super magazines to work better.

The reason the 38 Super magazines are working better than 9mm mags is all due to the quicker release of the 38 Super mags. If the ramped barrel can't be changed, then I go for the quicker release.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Don't know if this will help. Got my PM9 out.

While watching slow closes, with a tripp mag 115gr, the nose contacts about midway on the feed ramp, and follows the contour up into the chamber. Fairly smoothly. It's not a quicker release, just more uniform it seems.

On the checkmate mag it contacts higher up in the ramp, and I can feel slight binding of the case as the round reorients down into the chamber from the up angle as it has released.

It releases with a higher angle. And quicker.

Same with 124gr JHP.

The tripp mags have a smooth follower checkmate has a bump at midpoint. They are edged differently as well.

I tried a 38 super mag, slow close, the bullet is more inline with the chamber. The bullet nose barely touching the feed ramp. Fast close was smoother as well.

I may have to carry that 38 super mag next range trip and see....

 

[The Bolt Man]

DRYHUMOR,

As you have found, the 38 Super magazines with a quicker release appear to feed the 9mm cartridges more smoothly into the chamber than the later release 9mm magazines do.

At least that is what we see with a slow hand operation of the slide. I hope to put the 38 Super magazines to the test tomorrow, weather permitting.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

I'd like to hear the results.

The 1 super mag I have left is a factory Colt ss.

 

[The Bolt Man]

Today, Tue. May 4th, I conducted an extended firing test with my Dan Wesson Pointman 9, 9mm. I fired 115 gr. FMJ, 130 gr. FMJ RN, 147 gr. JHP, 124 gr conical flat point Plated bullet and 158 gr. plated HP bullets.

All were fired using 38 Super Magazines. Wilson and the No Name from Rock Island Armory. 225 rounds were fired and not a single feeding problem. I could feel the feeding cycle was noticably smoother with these 38 Super magazines that released the cartridge just before the bullet nose contacted the barrel ramp. I think these 9mm's with intergal barrel ramps need the quick release of the 38 Super magazines for smoother feeding.

I will have to try cast bullets because they do act different and acted sticky when jamed into the barrel ramp. I suspect bullet styles that didn't work well or didn't feed at all may work fine with the 38 Super magazines. This cast bullet test will be delayed for several weeks while I recover from double knee surgery next Monday.

I will report my cast bullet testing with the 38 Super magazines as soon as I can do the testing.