9mm ain't all that bad???

[Setzer77]

I once scoffed at the 9mm, of course, this was in my younger days. I then picked up, and decided to buy an FNP9-M. It's the only gun I really even bother carrying anymore, I have much more control and accuracy with it than I do my SA .45.

I also recovered an FMJ 147 gr slug last time at the range (sort of a private thing), and I must say, I'll pass on getting hit with it. For those that load their own ammo, there is a 9mm loading listed that runs a 147gr JHP at 1200 fps. I'm having some loaded up as we speak.

With age, I've learned never to count on either my accuracy to the point of instant incapacitation, nor the ability to do the job with few rounds. I like 9mm for the fact that the capacity can be rather large, and the recoil low.

 

[Plink]

So, Plink, can you post the numbers on your hog and gel experiments?

Do you mean one shot stop percentages?

I ask all the pistoleros that make fun of my 9mms if they'd volunteer to stand downrange and hold the target in front of them, and to date; No Takers.

I bet you won't find anyone that'll stand in front of a .22 short either. Does that mean it's a good self defense round?

 

[DennisE]

I used to shoot .45s and .40s but now in semiautos I limit myself to 9mm shot in quality handguns like the EMP and the P7M8. I'm sold on the fact that with decent ammo they'll do the job just as well in a nasty situation and they're cheaper to shoot and easier to shoot very well. I also enjoy the reverse snob appeal of belonging the the small club that shot the .45 and .40 for years and then walked away. Dennis

 

[elrod]

Looks like we keep coming back to the three basics (cost, weapon recoil, and effectiveness). To me,these factors combine into confidence to deal with a SHTF situtation. I have 2 BHPs, a 24/7 in 40 s&w, and a M60 .357. I have the most confidence in the first one I can lay my hands on when I really need a weapon (hopefully never). In everyday use the cost and recoil give the 9s the edge.

 

[WeedWhacker]

You'll never see a perp having take a serious central nervous system hit, or having their heart blown out, continue hostilities, simply because they're unable to.

Even if someone suffers total circulatory system failure, they still have somewhere in the ballpark of ten seconds worth of consciousness and physical capability left in them.
While I cannot cite the source, there was a story about a grandmother and a grandson, the former being held hostage at knifepoint while the latter was told to go fetch "the guns", involving the grandson shooting the male criminal directly in the heart with a .45, yet the criminal managed to exit the house and run either 100 or 200 yards down the street before collapsing and expiring.

The only way to immediately and physically stop a human from functioning is a critical central nervous system hit.

 

[Prince Yamato]

I personally can't stand the caliber pissing war. 9mm kills effectively and shoots comfortably.

 

[Man With A Gun]

Jeff Cooper and Gunsite ruined me early on regarding the 9mm.

Life and experiences teach that the 9mm has killed and wounded millions, most recently those poor kids at VT.

The new bullets make the 9mm even more deadly than ever.

PLINK: I love you signature since, once and unintentionally, I was hunting dove , answered the call of nature and peed on the electric fence.....I had to laugh when I read your post since I have been there, done that and did not get the T-shirt.

 

[Tom Servo]

The joke at my shootin range is "Why doesn't anyone pick up 9mm brass? Cuz they don't want you lookin up their skirt".

Hey, I only wore that to the range ONCE, okay?

Most of the arguments against the 9mm are based on 20-year-old data, and on the fact that 9mm ball ammo is a mediocre stopper. There have been tremendous advances in design since 1986, and modern loads are far more powerful and effective.

At the moment, I trust my life to Black Hills 124gr Gold Dots, which will penetrate a 2x4 as much as a 180gr .40 and leave the same sized hole.

After all, the .45 is just for people with a need to..."prove" something <runs and hides>

 

[wooderson]

The only way to immediately and physically stop a human from functioning is a critical central nervous system hit.

“This is what’s going to happen. This is what’s going to happen. I will put a round precisely through your medulla oblongata, which is located at the base of your brain, straight through a point mid-distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose and you will be dead from the neck down. Your finger won’t even twitch. Do you believe that?”

 

[Lonestar49]

BAD News..

...

Jack Bauer, is that you.. ?

I saw that program too, can't recall which LEO vs BG program it was, but yep, the BG holding the hostage at gunpoint, with his gun to the girls head made his last statement to the effect.. "even if you shoot me first, I'll put one thru her head.." And the FBI girl, told him about such a shot to the head or neck, can't remember, but told him that such a shot would sever some key nerve and his finger would not twitch.. And while she was telling the BG this, she took the perfect shot, and sure enough, the BG went down, gun in hand and no last-nerve-finger-flinch-pull of the trigger, and the LEO girl/cutie, saved the girl.

Awesome point-shot, it was, as she had both eyes open when she was talking to the BG and took the shot..

And IIRC, she had a SIG Carry, either 40cal, or 45cal, hmmm, my bet is, it was a 45cal, as IIRC, she was FBI.


LS

 

[Youngster]

I've never understood the attitude that the "big bore" crowd shows toward the 9mm, it's not the 105 year old service autoloader world standard for nothing. My only gripe with the 9mm is that I wouldn't feel all that comfortable carrying one stoked with less than the best available JHPs.

 

[AK103K]

This is what’s going to happen. This is what’s going to happen. I will put a round precisely through your medulla oblongata, which is located at the base of your brain, straight through a point mid-distance between your upper lip and the bottom of your nose and you will be dead from the neck down. Your finger won’t even twitch. Do you believe that?”

Its called the "QUELL" system. If your interested, look up "Paris Theodore", he promoted it back in the 70's/80's.

 

[Plink]

Jeff Cooper and Gunsite ruined me early on regarding the 9mm.

A lot of the issues with the 9mm early on weren't related to the caliber itself, but the loads that were chosen. For example the infamous Miami shootout. Of all the weak, anemic, underpenetrating loads to use. And they wondered why it didn't work when they needed it the most? The same thing would have happened if they had used the lightest bullets in most any other caliber too. It's common sense that a bullet may have to get through an arm before hitting the torso, and needs enough penetration for both.

The problem with the earlier bullet technology was expansion though. It took high velocities and light bullets to get much expansion in the smaller calibers. It's odd that the old Speer "flying ashtray" .45 would expand at low velocities, but a 9mm needed to be travelling at the speed of light. And forget about the 147 grain loads expanding at all. Bullet design has come a long way since. Today we can get good penetration and expansion both. Even the 147's can be made to expand reliably, especially if the load doesn't need to be subsonic.

The sad part is there's STILL a big movement towards the lightest bullets and shallow penetration. As if somehow paper numbers matter more than anything else. Look at all the chatter about frangibles and folks so worried about overpenetration that if a load does 10 inches in gelatin, it scares them! I can't for the life of me figure out why people are only focused on kinetic energy now, when penetration is the single make-or-break factor in any caliber. All the energy in the world does nothing if it doesn't make it into the boiler room.

 

[Plink]

PLINK: I love you signature since, once and unintentionally, I was hunting dove , answered the call of nature and peed on the electric fence.....I had to laugh when I read your post since I have been there, done that and did not get the T-shirt.

I made that unfortunate mistake once too, many years ago. Of all the things I've forgotten over the years, I remember that like it was yesterday!

 

[Ala Dan]

Nope, The 9 Ain't So Bad After All-

Hello Friends and Neighbors-

Before about a month ago, I owned only one 9m/m self-loader; and that
was my beloved West German SIG-SAUER P228. Then, last month things
changed as I picked up a brand new Kahr CW-9 that weighs only 18.5
ozs. Well, this week I purchased a 1981 Smith & Wesson model 39-2
that would grade out right at 95%. So now I own three 9m/m caliber
handguns~! I guess next on the list needs to be a nice Walther P88,
uh~?

 

[Checkman]

Well I'm torn between getting a slightly used SW 99 or a new Glock 34. These will be fun guns. So much for cleaning out my gun safe last year of all "non-essential" handguns. *Sigh* It's like dieting. No matter how much weight you lose you eventually gain it all back and then some.

Oh well lets get more guns.

 

[bulltaco]

If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

 

[SniperStraz]

I myself am not really sure about the issue at hand, but in response to this:

If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

The US Armed Forces use standard pressure military issue ball which we all know is not the most efficient round out there. Most CCers won't be packing military issue ball ammo. Instead I think it would be better if we compare to anything that we compare to what LEOs carry. They rely on their sidearms much more often and tend to use high grade ammo. Now we should ask why it is that most LEOs don't carry .45. Hmm? I don't have the numbers at hand but I'd venture to say that most LEOs are currently carrying 9mm.

 

[wooderson]

If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

They aren't.

 

[Plink]

If the 9mm is so efficient then why is the US Armed Forces going back to the 45 ACP?

FMJ. 'nuff said.

 

[CZF]

Having owned 9mms,.40 cals, 10mms, and .45 ACP pistols (mostly CZ types) over the years.

Nowdays..I carry a small but heavy 9mm RAMI everyday. Wish it was a 10mm, but the gun shoots just right with the 124 gr. Speer +P Gold Dot.

The NYPD and other agencies are quite happy with the Gold Dot load.
Can't argue with success!

 

[TimboKhan]

I think the economic arguement is a valid one. There is nobody that loves .45 more than me, but it really is getting to the point where I can't afford to shoot them. Following the logic that practice makes perfect, the 9mm looks more attractive every day.

I actually own a couple of 9mm pistols now simply because they are cheaper to shoot. I will say that I will never argue for them as caliber of choice, but the simple fact is that they are cheaper, pleasant (and fun!) to shoot, and they will get the job done on a bad guy. I would rather have a .45 any day of the week, but the 9mm is a fine "little brother".

As far as the "other" calibers go, I ignore them. Thats not to say I think they are bad rounds so much as it to say that I just don't see the point. If my 9mm or .45 can't get the job done, I will move to revolvers and the larger choice of caliber that they present. Specifically, the .357 which I feel is probably the second best combat caliber ever made, but that's a whole different argument....