9mm Carbine for defense?

[dprice3844444]

http://www.mechtechsys.com/ uses glock pistol lowers and 1911

here is a conversion that you can use that uses glock pistol lowers and mags. if funds are tight,mags are interchangeable.barrel can be threaded for a suppressor or design a barrel over.easy for ladies and children to use because of low recoil.

 

[JShirley]

And we all know that you need 3x the power inside the house....and you really need it if you live in an apartment.

Tools for the JOB and this the OP stated for home def.

The biggest worry is where that bullet is going to go if you miss, and most folks that have never been shot at before, or are in a life or death instance are just a little jumpy and have a good chance to miss. Second is where is that going to go after it goes in one side and out the other of Mr. Bad Guy

I hate having to go this basic, but I keep encountering purported firearm owners who have no clue how terminal ballistics actually work. In general, heavy bullets penetrate MORE. In general, lightweight bullets penetrate LESS. With me so far?

With expanding rounds, in general, slower rounds expand less on hitting the target. The exact same round, with virtually all designs (a few copper designs and the EFMJ being known exceptions), fired at higher velocity, will expand more rapidly when it hits the target. With greater frontal area, sooner, the IDENTICAL bullet fired faster will penetrate less. Still with me?

Okay, so far, I have explained that light bullets penetrate less than heavy ones, and that fast expanding bullets penetrate less than slow expanding bullets. Put them together: a very fast, lightweight bullet will penetrate much less than a heavy, slow bullet.

I'd hate to insult anyone's intelligence, but since I've just had to explain a common phenomenon because (evidently) lots of people don't understand it, I might as well explain another.

Handgun bullets, compared to rifle bullets, are heavy and fired at slow velocities. Even the relatively light (in terms of handgun bullets) 9mm Parabellum/9x19mm fires most typically a 115 or 124 grain bullet at between 1100 and 1300 fps. A 5.56x45/.223 typically fires a 55-68 grain bullet at between 2700 and 3100 fps.

So, light/fast vs heavy/slow. Even if you didn't bother to take into effect the much greater potential for a .223 to quickly stop a deadly threat, there would still be very good reasons to use a carbine for defense, when limited penetration is desired.

John

 

[stressed]

The 9mm is a pretty versatile round. I think with all things you have to look at the load that you are using.

You could load your carbine with things like Cor-Bon, and you've got something close to a rifle bullet - a 90gr .355 projectile @ 1750 fps.

From what I've seen, the 147gr rounds go from 990(ish) fps to 1075-1095 fps, from pistol barrel lenth versus carbine / 16"

If you have a round that is nearing jacket separation in media @ 990 fps, there is a pretty good chance it will separate if fired from a carbine. But there are such things as bonded bullets.

One of the things about the 147gr Speer Gold Dot is that it does hold together at 1175 fps - because the Underwood +P+ doesn't disintegrate in tests.

So I think a standard pressure 147gr Gold Dot would do fine as a HD round through a 16" barrel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMiI8VcPQ3c

I'm also wondering if shooting the Underwood 147gr +P+ through a carbine barrel bumps up the velocity to the point that the bullet does disintegrate. I'd love to see someone test it.

So do you think, the +P+ 147 grain underwood will shed it's jacked from a 16" carbine? add about 200 FPS more then their longest pistol barrel advertises.

a truncated cone FMJ at a "+P+" loading from a carbine will over penetrate, and that an be guaranteed. (BB offers a 124grain +P+ meplat that is even advertised as the PENETRATOR - and fired from a carbine will accelerate it even more allowing all powder to burn)

A standard 5.56mm will be 62 grains, pushed at well over 2000fps. I just recently picked up some +P 50 grain SCHP "liberty" ammunition that was on closeout for cheap - it's advertised at 2000fps from a pistol. So in effect, it should be at 2200fps or faster from a 16" barrel. That's like a mini rifle in it's own right.

 

[Warp]

So do you think, the +P+ 147 grain underwood will shed it's jacked from a 16" carbine? add about 200 FPS more then their longest pistol barrel advertises.

a truncated cone FMJ at a "+P+" loading from a carbine will over penetrate, and that an be guaranteed. (BB offers a 124grain +P+ meplat that is even advertised as the PENETRATOR - and fired from a carbine will accelerate it even more allowing all powder to burn)

A standard 5.56mm will be 62 grains, pushed at well over 2000fps. I just recently picked up some +P 50 grain SCHP "liberty" ammunition that was on closeout for cheap - it's advertised at 2000fps from a pistol. So in effect, it should be at 2200fps or faster from a 16" barrel. That's like a mini rifle in it's own right.

I guess that 3,000 fps is well over 2,000 fps...but stating it the way you did doesn't seem very accurate when it's muzzle velocity (XM855 type 5.56 out of a rifle length barrel) is indeed approximately 3,000 FPS.

And of course 3,000 fps is a hell of a lot faster than 2,000 fps.

For reference, 7.62x39 pushes 124gr bullets around 2,400 FPS.

And neither 5.56 nor 7.62x39 are particularly stout rifle cartridges.

So I don't know how rifle like 50gr at 2,000-2,200 (theoretical/marketing/advertised) will actually be.

 

[barnbwt]

Is the line about 5.56 penetrating barriers less true for defense rounds intended for deer/man sized mammals, or only for varmint rounds? I know either will do enough of a number to work, but that's true for "inadequate" pistol rounds as well. Just want to compare apples and apples here.

"Recoil operation would add complexity that's not needed when you have the larger subgun sized frame to work with. Blowback is simple to manufacture, works, and is cheap."

It's also heavy, big (as you said), and high-recoiling for its power level. Especially in closed bolt configuration. Obviously direct blowback does not deliver what most consumers desire, or they'd be more popular. Delay helps alleviate some of the weight/recoil issue a bit, but at considerable expense, and does not shrink the package much. The concept excels mostly in full auto/burst applications, which are shut to the American consumer.

If recoil operation is considered suitable/acceptable for handguns, which everyone feels comfortable shelling out for, I fail to understand why it wouldn't be equally practical for a long arm for the same reasons (provided the longer barrel does not impede function). The same goes for the rounds fired by those pistols, as well. It wouldn't cost 150$ like a Hi-point, but it would only be 100$ or so more than a cheap locked breech Glock or PX4. Basically the same price as a low-end AR, but narrower, shorter, lighter, and shooting a lower powered round that won't blow out windows/sheetrock in close proximity when fired

TCB

 

[Warp]

Is the line about 5.56 penetrating barriers less true for defense rounds intended for deer/man sized mammals, or only for varmint rounds?

What are you talking about/referring to?

The word "barrier" hadn't been used a single time in this thread until your post

 

[barnbwt]

Como se dice, "Walls," "Sheetrock," "Masonry" ? Is "Barrier", no?

I'm not talking armor plating --of course not. I'm talking about the assertions (which I believe to a certain extent) that 223 generally penetrates less than pistol rounds. My question is whether that is true for soft point defense rounds designed to expand in a controlled manner through animals the size of humans, or if that is only the case for more fragile varmint bullets like V-Max that tend to fragment and perform "poorly" (from an idealized terminal ballistics performance perspective) in masses larger or tougher than the varmints they were designed for. Otherwise we're really just comparing lead-core rounds with frangibles and declaring the latter penetrates less (duh).

Does a "standard duty load" hollow/soft point 9mm penetrate more or less than a "standard duty load" hollow/soft point 223 through common domicile materials? The 223 penetrates more than the 15" or whatever the 9mm does in gelatin, right? Will it also penetrate building materials more assertively? I was under the impression that bullets designed for rifle speeds/pressures are sturdier than bullets designed to expand at the meager velocities attained from handguns . Faster + Lighter = less penetration if the compared bullets are constructed and deform similarly.

A tungsten rod of equal weight thrown faster will most certainly penetrate further than a soft pure-lead ball

TCB

 

[JShirley]

You'd have to start with the right assumptions. Yours are way off.

No, most .223 of any type doesn't penetrate more than 15" of gel. No, most .223 bullets could not be described as "sturdy", while almost all defensive .355 bullets could be.

Since no-one's talking about tungsten, let's leave that out.

The "penetrating tip" M855 ammo should penetrate about as much in gelatin as most defensive 9x19mm loads. Almost all .223 will penetrate less than this. Varmint loads tend to under-penetrate for defensive use, unless you're being attacked by a groundhog.

With a subject this well documented, and where the information is readily available, I think it's only reasonable to expect members to explore known, demonstrable fact before expressing their opinion

John

 

[briansmithwins]

It's also heavy, big (as you said), and high-recoiling for its power level. Especially in closed bolt configuration. Obviously direct blowback does not deliver what most consumers desire, or they'd be more popular. Delay helps alleviate some of the weight/recoil issue a bit, but at considerable expense, and does not shrink the package much. The concept excels mostly in full auto/burst applications, which are shut to the American consumer.

I think you're misreading the real factors. Short recoil works great with pistols because nobody (except HiPoint owners) wants a 3lb .45 ACP or 9mmP pistol. SR gets you a smaller and lighter pistol.

With PCCs, most people don't mind the extra weight and bulk from the firearm being blowback operated. You're already carrying around something with a buttstock and 16" barrel. Another pound of steel isn't that much of additional burden.

I'm not sure where the idea that PCCs have heavy recoil comes from. Quite a few of the people who've shot my Uzi remarked on how low the recoil is.

BSW

 

[fpgt72]

You'd have to start with the right assumptions. Yours are way off.

No, most .223 of any type doesn't penetrate more than 15" of gel. No, most .223 bullets could not be described as "sturdy", while almost all defensive .355 bullets could be.

Since no-one's talking about tungsten, let's leave that out.

The "penetrating tip" M855 ammo should penetrate about as much in gelatin as most defensive 9x19mm loads. Almost all .223 will penetrate less than this. Varmint loads tend to under-penetrate for defensive use, unless you're being attacked by a groundhog.

With a subject this well documented, and where the information is readily available, I think it's only reasonable to expect members to explore known, demonstrable fact before expressing their opinion

John

Know your facts, but I know of just one real life experience that changed my mind...and all it takes is one. First you have to understand we are not only talking sheetrock, but hollow core doors (very thin) as well as glass.

The neighbor, and yes it really was a neighbor. Had one of those gun cleaning accidents. AR (a real 1990's vintage colt BTW) went off, went through his kids door, took the top round ball off his kids crib, (split the wood) and went out the window to god knows where. He sold me the rifle. He is what I would call a good guy he just got careless, and all it take is one careless moment. That proved to me that any....ANY bullet has a chance to go where you might not want it to go. Now I know that is the last thought in your head if Mr. Bad Guy is in your house. And in my experience (10yrs at a sheriffs office) most Mr. Bad Guys want to do their bad things when people are not at home....it is much more simple to take your stuff if you are not there.

I guess the bottom line is before I get too word-y IF that bullet does leave your house YOU are responsible for where it ends up....and if it ends up in the wrong place you will go to jail....and you might go to prison.

Just think about it....

 

[Warp]

Know your facts, but I know of just one real life experience that changed my mind...and all it takes is one. First you have to understand we are not only talking sheetrock, but hollow core doors (very thin) as well as glass.

The neighbor, and yes it really was a neighbor. Had one of those gun cleaning accidents. AR (a real 1990's vintage colt BTW) went off, went through his kids door, took the top round ball off his kids crib, (split the wood) and went out the window to god knows where. He sold me the rifle. He is what I would call a good guy he just got careless, and all it take is one careless moment. That proved to me that any....ANY bullet has a chance to go where you might not want it to go. Now I know that is the last thought in your head if Mr. Bad Guy is in your house. And in my experience (10yrs at a sheriffs office) most Mr. Bad Guys want to do their bad things when people are not at home....it is much more simple to take your stuff if you are not there.

I guess the bottom line is before I get too word-y IF that bullet does leave your house YOU are responsible for where it ends up....and if it ends up in the wrong place you will go to jail....and you might go to prison.

Just think about it....

I'm not sure what your point is or why you are saying this.

Nobody ever said, or implied, that a firearm/ammunition combination that can be relied upon to stop an attacker would be stopped be a hollow core interior door and/or a window.

 

[JShirley]

Exactly. And, if we are trying to minimize risk to bystanders/innocents in the vicinity, a .223 loaded with expanding rounds is the best way to do this.

 

[fpgt72]

Exactly. And, if we are trying to minimize risk to bystanders/innocents in the vicinity, a .223 loaded with expanding rounds is the best way to do this.

I do not agree....but it is a decision that each person that makes the choice to have a firearm in the home has to make.

My point is you don't need large powerful weapons to stop 90% of what happens when the bad guy enters your home. So many internet experts think you need high powered rifles, large pistols, whatever. The real truth is the best for home defense is a shot gun bottom line. If you have a gun...any gun 99% of the people trying to do bad things are going to run. And .9% are going to really re-think things if they are shot....that .1% that is high or is just there to kill you are not going to be in the same state of mind if they are shot by anything.

All I say is make YOUR choice, but understand what CAN happen if you discharge any firearm in your house. As I guy that has experimented with this, if you have the ability see what your choice in firearms does to a hollow core door, to a triple pain window, to sheetrock.

Your choice, and you will have to live with it.

 

[Warp]

I do not agree....but it is a decision that each person that makes the choice to have a firearm in the home has to make.

What do you not agree with?

Why?

My point is you don't need large powerful weapons to stop 90% of what happens when the bad guy enters your home.

A carbine in 5.56 isn't considered large or powerful by very many people. It's a carbine chambered in an intermediate rifle cartridge.

So many internet experts think you need high powered rifles, large pistols, whatever.

Who considers 5.56/.223 to be a "high powered rifle"?

The real truth is the best for home defense is a shot gun bottom line.

That is not a fact and is not the bottom line truth.

There are certainly benefits to a shotgun. There are also drawbacks.

It may be what you decide on, it may be best for you, but it absolutely is not the "bottom line" best for everybody. NOTHING is the bottom line best, for everybody.

All I say is make YOUR choice, but understand what CAN happen if you discharge any firearm in your house.

Of course.

And that includes shotguns.

You are always responsible for the projectiles you send downrange.

 

[JShirley]

Yes.

And my choices are based on my experiences and knowledge, including observing the effects of shot and bullets on game ranging from 1 to 220 lbs. There really is nothing else like seeing what happens to living tissue when shot.

 

[fpgt72]

Yes.

And my choices are based on my experiences and knowledge, including observing the effects of shot and bullets on game ranging from 1 to 220 lbs. There really is nothing else like seeing what happens to living tissue when shot.

And mine are including observing the effects of shot and bullets on HUMANS ranging from 100-200lbs. A person will react in very different ways over a "game" animal.

 

[fpgt72]

What do you not agree with?

Why?



A carbine in 5.56 isn't considered large or powerful by very many people. It's a carbine chambered in an intermediate rifle cartridge.




Who considers 5.56/.223 to be a "high powered rifle"?



That is not a fact and is not the bottom line truth.

There are certainly benefits to a shotgun. There are also drawbacks.

It may be what you decide on, it may be best for you, but it absolutely is not the "bottom line" best for everybody. NOTHING is the bottom line best, for everybody.




Of course.

And that includes shotguns.

You are always responsible for the projectiles you send downrange.

Your questions are too cumbersome for a computer idiot like myself to answer....but I think that just about everyone thinks the 5.56 is a high powered rifle round....including the army.

And why do you think you see AR type rifles in so many patrol cars anymore....we learned from the LA bank shooting that your normal 9mm or 45 will not have the power to take down a person wearing the type of protection the people used in that crime.

 

[Walkalong]

If anyone breaks into your home wearing that kind of gear and armed as they were, you have much bigger problems than which caliber you need.

That situation was far, far, from the average self defense situation.

But that really wasn't the nature of the OP's question IMO. We are talking about the common self defense situation a civilian might find themselves in, not what round is adequate for police and military personal for the worst of situations.

I know of no one who thinks the .223 is a high powered round by the way, and the army certainly knows better, or it wouldn't have .308 and .50 BMG weapons.

 

[C0untZer0]

So do you think, the +P+ 147 grain Underwood will shed it's jacked from a 16" carbine? add about 200 FPS more then their longest pistol barrel advertises.

I think it will. It is already so close to coming apart just out of a Glock 19 barrel.

I also think the petals would sheer with just a little bit more velocity...

But my point is that the Underwood shows where the envelope is and a std pressure 147gr Gold Dot that gets a little extra velocity from a carbine barrel is not going to break the envelope.

I can see that a rifle round is better against body armor. Not sure how many burglars would have body armor.

 

[Warp]

Your questions are too cumbersome for a computer idiot like myself to answer....but I think that just about everyone thinks the 5.56 is a high powered rifle round....including the army.

No, not really.

Especially not if they know anything.

So, these people who think that the 5.56 is a high powered rifle round. What do they consider 7.62x51 or .30-06? What do they consider .338? .50 BMG?

5.56 is an intermediate cartridge. It is not a "high powered rifle round".

Not that the semantics of what it's called is truly relevant to the topic at hand...

 

[Shawn Dodson]

With the exception of a Seecamp .32 ACP all my carry guns are chambered for 9mm. (I also reload 9mm.)

The great ammo shortage of 2013 has made me realize that when TSHTF that the only ammo I'm going to have is what I already have. Ammo availability will be quickly depleted by panic buying and hoarding.

I'm considering adding a 9mm Beretta CX4 carbine to my defense gun collection - simply because I can load it with the same ammo I use in my 9mm pistols (Gold Dot 124gr +P). It'll provide a contingency in times when ammo is scarce. It'll allow me to shoot into cars, if need be, because the ammo is barrier-blind (more so than many 5.56/.223 loads). It'll also allow me the ability to take the fight down the block should the situation require.

 

[2zulu1]

Know your facts, but I know of just one real life experience that changed my mind...and all it takes is one. First you have to understand we are not only talking sheetrock, but hollow core doors (very thin) as well as glass.

The neighbor, and yes it really was a neighbor. Had one of those gun cleaning accidents. AR (a real 1990's vintage colt BTW) went off, went through his kids door, took the top round ball off his kids crib, (split the wood) and went out the window to god knows where. He sold me the rifle. He is what I would call a good guy he just got careless, and all it take is one careless moment. That proved to me that any....ANY bullet has a chance to go where you might not want it to go. Now I know that is the last thought in your head if Mr. Bad Guy is in your house. And in my experience (10yrs at a sheriffs office) most Mr. Bad Guys want to do their bad things when people are not at home....it is much more simple to take your stuff if you are not there.

I guess the bottom line is before I get too word-y IF that bullet does leave your house YOU are responsible for where it ends up....and if it ends up in the wrong place you will go to jail....and you might go to prison.

Just think about it....

You need to know your facts also, one anecdotal experience with the 5.56 doesn't condemn the caliber. One of the top rounds used by door entry teams is Hornady's 75gr BTHP because it doesn't over penetrate and it has a reputation for rapid incapacitation, that can't be said for the 9mm.

http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/556-nato/75-gr-bthp-t2-tap

As JShirley and others have written, with all the published data available, there really isn't any need to rehash the basics based upon opinion and not experiential knowledge.

 

[Inazone]

I voted yes, although I would generally have a 9mm handgun rather than a carbine within reach in a defensive situation. The characteristics that might make .223 a better defensive round in some cases don't benefit me as much, living in a suburban residential area surrounded by other houses and with no prospective indoor shot more than about 10-15 yards. A handgun is the most practical for manuevering the narrow hallways in my house anyway, but if I was "pinned down" by an intruder, my Hi-Point 995TS would provide a stable platform for defending myself.

 

[C0untZer0]

One of the reasons I really like the advent of the pocket nines, the Kahr PM9/CM9, or the Rohrbaugh R9 means you don't need different calibers for different application.

Just hypothetically, if I were using 9mm for primary, 380 ACP for BUG, 5.56 for HD... you could look at it as 3 potential points of failure.

If 380 ACP supply dries up - I have to stop practicing with my BUG due to lack of ammo, same with 5.56.

I guess you could look at it another way - If you have a duty sized 9mm, a pocket nine and a 9mm carbine, basically using 9mm for everything. you're screwed if 9mm ammo supply dries up.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

As I guy that has experimented with this, if you have the ability see what your choice in firearms does to a hollow core door, to a triple pain window, to sheetrock.

How is shooting three things that I can penetrate with my fist going to tell me something about my choice of self defense ammo?