9MM confusion/ penetration/ barriers

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That is true. However, why should you short change yourself if the extra preparedness cost you nothing. A box of Federal HST 147gr HPs cost the same as a box of 124gr Hps.

Perhaps because the best stopper in data from actual shootings is a 115 grain +P+ at 91%, while the best 147 grain bullet is down at 80%? So, you're actually limiting the lethality of your 9mm in planning for the rare scenario.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=17&Weight=115
 
A bullet is a bullet. If it penetrates 3 inches or 100 inches 9 times out of ten it'll be lethal or make a BG stop. 7 bullets that penetrate 3 inches is no walk in the park even for big bastards.
I'm not worried about lethality, I'm worried about the time it takes to become lethal. There's a world of difference and because of that, a bullet is not just a bullet.
 
stop reading marshal and sanow, and an article that was posted back in 1992.

It was not an "article", it was a US Department of Justice study based on 5 years of 9mm 147 grain police shootings. The 147 grain loads were found to be poor stoppers that over-penetrated in flesh and under-penetrated in bone and vehicles.

Given a choice between studies based on gelatin vs studies based on real-world data, I'm going with the real world. I don't think the 147 grainers are poor choices, it's just that in the real world the hot 115 grain hollow points have a much better track record. I want any edge I can get.

The link, again: http://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=138913
 
True, but one also needs to consider how much energy is expended by going through various vehicle panels/upholstery/components/etc. Does the round still have enough energy by the time it strikes the target? A piece of cardboard will show a hole even with a weak hit.
So true. A bullet has so much kinetic energy, and it loses it over time after it exits the barrel. It loses more if it hits something along the way. A bullet with more kinetic energy AND greater cross sectional density in a somewhat weighty bullet will penetrate more than one without these attributes. It is all in the numbers. Using Newtonitan physics, it isn't that hard to show the difference between the 9mm and .45, for instance.

In easy lay terms, say a 4" .357 mag is fired at a car (door, window, take your pick). What comes out the other side is, for all practical purposes, a .38+P or 9mm. You lost that KE when it hit the intervening material.

No wonder that a large, slow bullet with poor cross sectional density is a poor performer when called upon to penetrate intermediate media like sheet metal, walls, and glass. I've heard of .44mag not penetrating car doors at close range. They guy was firing very heavy slow loads (240+? 300?). It would go in one side, but he was shocked (I was too) that it didn't penetrate. He shot it with a 9mm, and it went in one side and out the other.

Another issue is bullet construction. At very high KE, like with an M4, the bullet can and will disitigrate in a spectacular fashion when it hits hard materials. Believe it or not, it is a crapshoot as to whether the M855 ball will penetrate a cinderblock! It will go in one side, but not the other. It takes multiple rounds to break one down.

Lots of variables in a gunshot. VERY dynamical system, which makes it so hard to say for sure what works well and what doesn't.

Personally, I think the 10mm is the ideal weapon, followed by .357 magnum. You can load heavy and slow, or light and fast, all without losing the superior cross sectional density to other comparable loads.
 
That Marshall and Sanow book doesn't withstand academic rigor.

Yet, the department of justice study also based on actual police shootings came to the same conclusion. After twenty years of back and forth between the jello studies and the real world data studies, I've going with the actual shooting data.

No matter how (or who) compiles the data, it always comes back to fast hollowpoints trumping slow hollowpoints. I live in the real world and I'm going with the real world results.
 
It was not an "article", it was a US Department of Justice study based on 5 years of 9mm 147 grain police shootings. The 147 grain loads were found to be poor stoppers that over-penetrated in flesh and under-penetrated in bone and vehicles.

That's a 20 year old study. It has no merit today.
 
That's a 20 year old study. It has no merit today.
Agreed.

You can't base results of shootings based on "ancient" hollow point designs. Technology has changed a bit in the last 20 years, and it wasn't limited to computers, cell phones, etc...
 
Perhaps because the best stopper in data from actual shootings is a 115 grain +P+ at 91%, while the best 147 grain bullet is down at 80%? So, you're actually limiting the lethality of your 9mm in planning for the rare scenario.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/stoppingpower.asp?Caliber=17&Weight=115
Go check out the actual test data from ATK. They test their bullets against other police issued bullets, in front of the officers. Then they publish the results for review. The Federal HST 147gr bullet will go through a car winshield with little deflection and still hit harder than a .380.

It is a good bullet. If you get the +P version it is even better.
 
They test their bullets against other police issued bullets, in front of the officers. Then they publish the results for review. The Federal HST 147gr bullet will go through a car winshield with little deflection and still hit harder than a .380.

But, I don't care what bullets work through car windshields. I'm not a cop. If I shoot somebody through their windshield I'll be facing a murder charge. Despite that, even in police shootings the faster HP's work better than the slower heavier HP's. That's why police agencies dropped the 147 grain loads.

I want whatever bullet makes bad guys fall down the quickest. There are no new "miracle" bullets. You have fast light hollowpoints and you have heavier slower hollowpoints. Hollowpoints in both categories are better now than in the past - you have a greater chance that the bullet will actually expand.

You can stuff a 220 grain slug in your .308, but that doesn't make it a better deer killer than the traditional 150 grain. And a 147 grain bullet in a 9mm isn't a better man killer.

Velocity counts.
 
Some folks fall victim to social darwinism when they opt not to shoot through a windshield.
 
But, I don't care what bullets work through car windshields. I'm not a cop. If I shoot somebody through their windshield I'll be facing a murder charge. Despite that, even in police shootings the faster HP's work better than the slower heavier HP's. That's why police agencies dropped the 147 grain loads.

Proof, please. (There are many LEA's currently equipped with 147gr or 147gr +P HST).

Velocity doesn't mean jack; if it did, EVERY law enforcement agency at all levels would be switching their 9x19mm's and .40 S&W's to .357 SIG's regardless of the increased cost.

The truth is the vast majority of American law enforcement agencies are equipped with .40 S&W.

The truth is major increases in velocity in handgun calibers increase the chances of bullet jacket/core separation and/or over-expansion and underpenetration in human tissue.
 
Velocity doesn't mean jack; if it did, EVERY law enforcement agency at all levels would be switching their 9x19mm's and .40 S&W's to .357 SIG's regardless of the increased cost.

Or, ammo companies could just download all those rounds to 50% of the current velocity and they'd have the perfect defense load. Is that what you meant?
 
But, I don't care what bullets work through car windshields.

So, are you saying, some how a bullet that can shed nearly half of it's KE through a windshield, still expand to .53+", and still penetrate more than 8" will suddenly preform worse when only hitting fabric and flesh?

If the round performs that well after losing half of it's energy why would it be any less lethal than 124gr? Really think this out.

A smaller faster bullet has less cross sectional density. So, that extra speed is only offering a minimal advantage in flesh at best. A 147gr bullet will do the job just as well as a 124gr+P or 115gr+p+ with much less wear on the gun and the shooter. Plus, it offers the advantage of better barrier penetration.

With modern technology hollow points open at a much lower velocity. Now if you are using an XTP bullet, or a "Silver Tip", I would stay away from 147gr. With modern designs such as the HST, Winchester T, and Gold Dot a 147gr round should achieve sufficient velocity for proper expansion and penetration.
 
He is trying to say that 147gr loads are half the speed of the 115gr+p+. So, we must think downloading the speed of a bullet makes it better.

No he's not. He's making fun of this statement from AZ Hawkeye:

Velocity doesn't mean jack

An obvious overstatement or we would be just as well off with a .380 loaded with 147 gr bullets.
 
He is trying to say that 147gr loads are half the speed of the 115gr+p+. So, we must think downloading the speed of a bullet makes it better.
That was my belief as well, however, the way he said it made me feel he believes that I want ALL bullets to be downgraded by 50% max velocity.

It stems from a misunderstanding of what sectional density actually is, and the belief that hydrostatic shock is possible, when it's plainly just a phenomenon. (There is a reason it is only a theory, and it will always be just a theory due to the inability to replicate the "effects" in any capacity. We call that "anecdotal" evidence because it does not stand up to scrutiny from actual scientists).

From http://www.scopedin.com/articles/editorials/the-fascinating-topic-of-hydrostatic-shock/:

It must also be noted that many arguments in favor of hydrostatic shock (or against the arguments of its detractors) are simply intellectually dishonest. Dr. Martin Fackler, a Vietnam-era trauma surgeon and wound ballistics researcher, once observed that a lithotripter (a medical device used to crush kidney stones with sonic pressure waves) produces no damage to soft tissues, despite the fact that a lithotripter produces far more energy than a typical handgun bullet.4 In an attempt to discredit Dr. Fackler’s argument, one writer cited three studies that demonstrated tissue damage resulting from lithotripter usage.5 What he didn’t say was that such damage was far from immediate, and completely irrelevant to any discussion of terminal ballistics.

I'm trying to find an article which claims the Sacramento Police Department has a 99% stoppage rating using Federal HST in 147gr. If someone can direct me to it, I'd be greatly obliged. (If you are unfamiliar with the 147gr HST, it travels at a whopping 1004 fps with 329 ft-lbs KE).
 
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