9MM confusion/ penetration/ barriers

[AZ Hawkeye]

No he's not. He's making fun of this statement from AZ Hawkeye:



An obvious overstatement or we would be just as well off with a .380 loaded with 147 gr bullets.

Sorry, I'll be perfectly scientific from now on...

What I mean is this... There is no measurable difference in terms of the wound cavity between a 9mm bullet fired at 1200 fps, and a 9mm bullet fired at 1000 fps, with one exception: the temporary cavity will be microscopically larger.

The bullet with greater sectional density will always, always, always have greater potential for expansion and penetration, no matter the speed. <--- This is what I'm getting across.

 

[918v]

Here is an actual scientific study conducted at the same time as KodiakBeer's offering. It only talks about one bullet: the ancient Winchester 147gr JHP which is currently offered in the WWB line. Please note the ancient 147gr JHP performs pretty well, expanding to .6" and penetrating 13 inches on average.

That's we have to take "studies" with a grain of salt. Many people conducting these studies have a vested interest in something related to money. Government contracts are lucrative.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

 

[918v]

What I mean is this... There is no measurable difference in terms of the wound cavity between a 9mm bullet fired at 1200 fps, and a 9mm bullet fired at 1000 fps

What I would like to see is a study conducted on gellatin blocks placed in an apparatus consisting of an indicator that measures the expansion of the block as the bullet passes through it. I'd bet there is a measurable difference in the temporary stretch which does produce additional trauma. Whether this additional trauma is significant is a topic for yet another study, though.

 

[KodiakBeer]

All police shootings are documented. Various entities have looked at that real world data using different criteria, ie; "stopping" power, lethality, etc, and came to very similar conclusions. One can nit-pick the individual studies, but taken as a whole one thing is clear - gelatin doesn't mimic human flesh very well because none of the "winners" in the gelatin tests show up at the top of the real world data.

 

[MikeNice]

Kodiak, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department used 147gr Ranger SXT rounds and then went to the 147gr Ranger-T round.

A small quote from Shawn Dodson's website,

"Sir, the information provided by Mr. xxxxx regarding poor performance of the 147gr 9mm is incorrect. This Department uses the Winchester [147gr] SXT and the performance of this bullet is outstanding."

-Bruce Harris, Training Bureau, Weapons Training, Biscailuz Center Range, Los Angeles Sheriff’s Department (e-mail to Shawn Dodson, January 2001)

(I removed the name above to remove distraction from the topic.)

Obviously the 147gr 9mm has been serving police well since at least the last generation of hollow point design. Do you think that the LA Sheriff's Department would trust a round that didn't work. That is one of the most violent places in America. Cops were getting shot at and returning fire every week in the late 1990's. They would be in a position to tell us who the real world "winners" are.

Any of the three major weights will do fine in flesh when loaded appropriately. However, if you want that extra peace of mind 147gr is the way to go. I want to know that if a perp hides behind my couch I can get him. I want to know that if he is trying to force his way through my bedroom door, I can get him. If the bad guy tries using an open car door for concealment I want to know, I can get him.

Lighter weight bullets will deform, deflect, and lose too much kenetic energy in those scenarios. All of the above are real world scenarios that I have seen the paper work on. I know they occured and I know the defensive shooters were never tried in court. So for real world comfort 147gr is the way to go in my opinion. If you can find it, 147gr+p Federal HST would be even better.

 

[KodiakBeer]

Well, if a perp is in my home he'll be facing something much more lethal than a 9mm.

Most of us aren't cops. What a cop needs for a tactical tool doesn't necessarily equate to what a citizen needs. The 147 grain 9mm is and always has been a compromise for police. Most agencies have dropped it entirely, but those still using it are doing so because so many police shootings involve a vehicle stop. That's a cop thing, not a citizen thing.

If you shoot somebody hiding behind a barrier you are very likely going to be charged. If they hide, it's your opportunity to leave.

A perp not hiding behind a barrier - somebody advancing on you with a weapon - needs the most lethal round you can carry. The most lethal handgun rounds are the 125 grain .357 HP's, and the 230 grain .45acp HP's. When you step down to 9mm, the hotter 115 grainers are at the top of the heap.

I just think you're planning for the 1% scenario (an assailant advances on you holding up a car door for cover...?). The 99% scenario is that the assailant isn't behind cover. And in that case, the faster rounds have a significantly better track record.

 

[481]

Here is an actual scientific study conducted at the same time as KodiakBeer's offering. It only talks about one bullet: the ancient Winchester 147gr JHP which is currently offered in the WWB line. Please note the ancient 147gr JHP performs pretty well, expanding to .6" and penetrating 13 inches on average.

That's we have to take "studies" with a grain of salt. Many people conducting these studies have a vested interest in something related to money. Government contracts are lucrative.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Fackler_Articles/winchester_9mm.pdf

The sole purpose of E. Wolberg's study (referenced above) was meant to establish a correlation between the terminal expansion of bullets recovered from the human anatomy and those recovered from calibrated 10% ordnance gelatin in order to validate the use of the latter as an appropriate test analog.

Any other conclusions as to this particular round's (the Winchester 147 gr. JHP) terminal performance is going to be suspect simply because the study above was not designed or conducted to measure that specific parameter.

 

[481]

Kodiak, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department used 147gr Ranger SXT rounds and then went to the 147gr Ranger-T round.

A small quote from Shawn Dodson's website,


(I removed the name above to remove distraction from the topic.)

Obviously the 147gr 9mm has been serving police well since at least the last generation of hollow point design. Do you think that the LA Sheriff's Department would trust a round that didn't work. That is one of the most violent places in America. Cops were getting shot at and returning fire every week in the late 1990's. They would be in a position to tell us who the real world "winners" are.

Any of the three major weights will do fine in flesh when loaded appropriately. However, if you want that extra peace of mind 147gr is the way to go. I want to know that if a perp hides behind my couch I can get him. I want to know that if he is trying to force his way through my bedroom door, I can get him. If the bad guy tries using an open car door for concealment I want to know, I can get him.

Lighter weight bullets will deform, deflect, and lose too much kenetic energy in those scenarios. All of the above are real world scenarios that I have seen the paper work on. I know they occured and I know the defensive shooters were never tried in court. So for real world comfort 147gr is the way to go in my opinion. If you can find it, 147gr+p Federal HST would be even better.

Good post.

The Department from which I retired issued the Federal 9mm 147 gr. HydraShok JHP (P9HS2G) until shortly before I retired. We used that load for almost 13 years, never had a problem with its performance. (including our SWAT team entries)

As our service sidearms began to wear we were forced to replace them and only went to another caliber and cartridge arrangement simply because we were offered a deal that we just couldn't pass up on the same platform (SIG P226) in .40S&W and (tons of) ammo (RA40T) at an equally attractive price.

This also permitted us to not have to issue new leather gear and conduct the transitional training that would accompany it.

Sadly, economics drives such decisions more than anything else especially these days with diminished tax revenues being what they are.

 

[AZ Hawkeye]

Well, if a perp is in my home he'll be facing something much more lethal than a 9mm.

Most of us aren't cops. What a cop needs for a tactical tool doesn't necessarily equate to what a citizen needs. The 147 grain 9mm is and always has been a compromise for police. Most agencies have dropped it entirely, but those still using it are doing so because so many police shootings involve a vehicle stop. That's a cop thing, not a citizen thing.

If you shoot somebody hiding behind a barrier you are very likely going to be charged. If they hide, it's your opportunity to leave.

A perp not hiding behind a barrier - somebody advancing on you with a weapon - needs the most lethal round you can carry. The most lethal handgun rounds are the 125 grain .357 HP's, and the 230 grain .45acp HP's. When you step down to 9mm, the hotter 115 grainers are at the top of the heap.

I just think you're planning for the 1% scenario (an assailant advances on you holding up a car door for cover...?). The 99% scenario is that the assailant isn't behind cover. And in that case, the faster rounds have a significantly better track record.

When you said "much more lethal," I expected you to say you have an AR, AK or shotgun, not another crappy handgun caliber. Hell, you can't even expect to stop a person with one shot with a .44 Magnum, let alone the far inferior .357 Magnum and .45 ACP.

The most lethal handgun rounds are the 125 grain .357 HP's, and the 230 grain .45acp HP's. When you step down to 9mm, the hotter 115 grainers are at the top of the heap.

False. False. And false.

The most lethal handgun calibers are .454 Casull and .500 S&W; both of these rounds are able to drop a bear with one well placed shot.

I'm still waiting for proof.

 

[KodiakBeer]

When you said "much more lethal," I expected you to say you have an AR, AK or shotgun, not another crappy handgun caliber.

I do. I would never consider a handgun as a primary defense weapon in the home.

The most lethal handgun calibers are .454 Casull and .500 S&W; both of these rounds are able to drop a bear with one well placed shot.

I'm still waiting for proof.

I've provided the studies. You choose to ignore them. If you want to carry a .500 as a concealment weapon, be my guest. If you want to carry a handgun as a bear defense weapon, also be my guest.

 

[AZ Hawkeye]

You've provided a single twenty year old "study" which has been proven academically dishonest.

 

[KodiakBeer]

You've provided a single twenty year old "study" which has been proven academically dishonest.

I've provided two studies. One by Marshal/Sanow and one by the US Department of Justice. You have provided ZERO proof that either study is "dishonest".

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

kodiak,


you still haven't googled dr. fackler or dr. roberts, have you? lol


the reason i ask, is that they prove all the info you're referencing to be faulty.

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Marshal/Sanow doesn't stand up under ANY academic rigor.


It's about as scientific as an article from Guns and Ammo.


Shall I go into all the ways? Or are we about done that book?

 

[george d dennis]

all this about ammo. most of us are not going to shoot through car doors
or windshields in are life time. it seems its always a argument about what
caliber is best or ammo is best. and the arguments will keep going on and on.
whatever my firearms shoot best with, thats the ammo i want. i myself wouldnt
even want to be shot with a bb gun. where up to page five already.

 

[918v]

481,

Wolberg studied 27 cadavers. In those cadavers, the Winchester 147 JHP penetrated 13" on average and expanded to .6" Please don't imply that one cannot conclude the Win 147 JHP is a reliable round just because the purpose of the study was not to test for reliability. That is just ridiculous.

 

[KodiakBeer]

The Marshal/Sanow doesn't stand up under ANY academic rigor.

Because Fackler says so? Oddly, when the DoJ conducted their own study with similar data (ACTUAL shootings) they got the same results as Marshal. It seems like all of Fackler's conclusions fall apart when the targets are no longer Jello because when real people get shot they don't react like Jello.

When you go to a 147 grain bullet, you are adding a little over half the weight of a .22 slug to the standard 124 grain 9mm (23 grains). Or, 32 grains to a 115 grain slug - still less than the weight of a .22. Not much...
Yet, to do that you are reducing the velocity by 250 to 350 feet per second. You are reducing the velocity by about 25% to 35% to gain a weight advantage of 32 grains (at most).

In the real world, this trade-off doesn't work. It may look great in Gelatin, but in the real world lighter slugs give all the penetration required and are far more effective. There are 30 years of ACTUAL shootings of ACTUAL people by police agencies to validate that.

 

[918v]

I've provided two studies. One by Marshal/Sanow and one by the US Department of Justice. You have provided ZERO proof that either study is "dishonest".

It does not matter whether either or both studies are dishonest. They are outdated. Today's ammo is night and day better that 1991 vintage stuff.

 

[918v]

Yet, to do that you are reducing the velocity by 250 to 350 feet per second. You are reducing the velocity by about 25% to 35% to gain a weight advantage of 32 grains (at most).

So what? Why is velocity so important to you?

 

[BullfrogKen]

The Marshal/Sanow doesn't stand up under ANY academic rigor.

Because Fackler says so?

No . . .


Because ANY student that passed a statistics 101 class would say so. They would point out the error right away. Probably at the end of their mid-term exam.


The biggest, but not their only, error in their study is correlation does not equal causation.


Their book begins, and ends, with the premise that is does. It rests on it.




I would think that someone who quotes Ayn Rand in his sig line would know better about forming a logical argument upon a correlation = causation premise.

 

[918v]

In the real world, this trade-off doesn't work. It may look great in Gelatin, but in the real world lighter slugs give all the penetration required and are far more effective. There are 30 years of ACTUAL shootings of ACTUAL people by police agencies to validate that.

Except Wolberg's study invalidates your argument.

 

[Apocalypse-Now]

Because Fackler says so? Oddly, when the DoJ conducted their own study with similar data (ACTUAL shootings) they got the same results as Marshal. It seems like all of Fackler's conclusions fall apart when the targets are no longer Jello because when real people get shot they don't react like Jello.

you didn't read any of fackler's or robert's autopsy reports, did you LOL. both dr. roberts and dr. fackler have written reports (many years ago) to the DOJ explaining their flawed statical theories concerning "one shot stop percentages". As a result, the DOJ (as well as most other LE depts), no longer use flawed data like this when determining duty loads.

keep googling

 

[481]

481,

Wolberg studied 27 cadavers. In those cadavers, the Winchester 147 JHP penetrated 13" on average and expanded to .6" Please don't imply that one cannot conclude the Win 147 JHP is a reliable round just because the purpose of the study was not to test for reliability. That is just ridiculous.

No, it is not ridiculous.

Wolberg's study was not designed to conclude anything about the efficacy of the Winchester 147 gr. JHP; it was designed to correlate the terminal performance of a specific round between a specific test media and human flesh and nothing more.

While I agree that the round in question can be an effective performer for a design of its age and technical rearage, it is intellectually dishonest to claim that the study proves some sort of reliability when in fact it never approaches even the remotest analysis of any aspect of the round's capablities. Hell, I like "heavy-for-caliber" rounds and even the Winchester 147 gr. JHP has a place in my ammo inventory, but any claim to its "reliability" (?????) is simply not supported by Wolberg's study.


Further, statistical analysis of the 28 shootings (not 27 as you claim) examined by Wolberg, reveals that the average of the recovered diameters of the rounds was 0.541" with an average penetration depth of 13.18 inches and an average retained weight of 139.1 grains.

Please don't spread falsehoods.

 

[481]

No . . .


Because ANY student that passed a statistics 101 class would say so. They would point out the error right away. Probably at the end of their mid-term exam.


The biggest, but not their only, error in their study is correlation does not equal causation.


Their book begins, and ends, with the premise that is does. It rests on it.




I would think that someone who quotes Ayn Rand in his sig line would know better about forming a logical argument upon a correlation = causation premise.

Well said.

Duncan MacPherson addresses (pages 18-22) in his book, "Bullet Penetration", the high improbability (about one in one trillion) of M&S's results coming out as they did (regardless of caliber, the lightest, fastest bullets always ended up at the top of the ranking and many times in the same order) in a manner understandable by even the most "lay" reader.

In the end, it is clear that M&S tampered with their data especially given the obvious permutative rigidity across the categorical rankings.

M&S are frauds.

 

[918v]

No, it is not ridiculous.

Yes it is.

Show me one study with more shootings involving a single projectile such as this.