9mm Load Development and Observations

[lordpaxman]

Thanks for the range report, it’s nice to hear things worked well for the most part. It’s good to have a range of powders and projectiles, and the load data for your guns.
It also sounds like your guns sights are tuned to the lighter projectiles, and doesn’t surprise me the heavier bullets print a bit higher with the semi-auto. When I find curious is when the gun is sighted in, windage wise, lets say with factory ammo, but reloads with the same grain bullets print significantly left or right of center. And let’s just say for the sake of argument it’s isn’t too much or too little trigger finger.
Good luck and Happy shooting with the next batch.

 

[DMW1116]

There is probably some trigger finger issues going on though I have noticed some projectiles shoot to different POI. Then again I shot someone’s red dot yesterday and it went a little right too. I’m still not a huge red dot fan but it did shoot very well. I’m left handed so maybe shooting them right handed off a rest would show something. Shooting without a rest would just show me why I shoot left handed.

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve noticed a definite tendency for some bullets to shoot to one side or the other.

I had my 30-30 sighted in for Winchester Power Points before starting to hand load and found it threw my hand loads, all with Hornady bullets of various weights, as much as 4” right at 100 yards. Re-centering the factory sights for every load wasn’t an option, even if I did enjoy the weird looks when I broke out the hammer and punch at the range.

 

[LiveLife]

Happy shooting with the next batch.

When I am conducting load development, after identifying the most accurate powder charges, I always repeat range testing to verify accuracy of loads.

Only when a particularly "accurate" load is verified at 10-15 yards then at 25 yards on repeated range tests do I consider it "accurate" load.

There is probably some trigger finger issues going on though I have noticed some projectiles shoot to different POI.

If you are adding input to trigger/grip to move POI away from POA, check out this reference guide by US AMU - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-4#post-11320782

And we discussed in detail trigger control in this thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/trigger-control.834737/page-2#post-11245640

 

[DMW1116]

The 115 Berrys/CFE P load was worked up at 25 yards when I first started reloading 9mm. I was convinced the W231 load would be better but testing proved me wrong.

To add to the future testing column, I need to do an array of loads with 115 grain Berrys and the longer overall lengths from the Hodgden site. The Lyman cast data with the shorter COAL didn’t work too well. I tried the minimum load already but I just tested it for function. It seemed accurate but I didn’t do an array.

I know this all seems really picky and somewhat pointless, but it’s the testing part I like and I’m just trying to use the least expensive components then wring the most out of it.

I was trying to avoid different loads for the Shield and M&P9, but it appears than might be the best option.

 

[LiveLife]

I was convinced the W231 load would be better but testing proved me wrong.

I use 115 gr FMJ/RN with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 at 1.130"-1.135" as my reference load not because it is the most accurate 9mm load rather because it is comparable to factory/white box in accuracy.

There are many other loads with Bullseye/WST/Titegroup/Sport Pistol/BE-86/WSF etc. that are more accurate than the W231/HP-38 reference load. In fact, Promo even produced smaller 50/100 yard groups than W231/HP-38 during my PCC testing with more consistent muzzle velocities using 95/100/115 gr bullets.

To add to the future testing column, I need to do an array of loads with 115 grain Berrys and the longer overall lengths from the Hodgden site. The Lyman cast data with the shorter COAL didn’t work too well. I tried the minimum load already but I just tested it for function. It seemed accurate but I didn’t do an array.

During my testing with pistol and carbine loads using different powders, once accuracy node powder charge was identified (And for some powders, accuracy node could be very narrow/tight) with longer 1.150"-1.160" OAL, using shorter 1.130"-1.135" OAL produced smaller groups. With 115 gr FMJ/plated RN bullets with shorter bullet base, going down to even shorter 1.110" produced even smaller groups (Likely from improved neck tension for more consistent pressure build) but depending on powder and charge used, I needed to lower the powder charge by around .1-.2 gr.

But once you identify an accurate load, accuracy should remain on subsequent range testings especially if sample size is small (I usually load 10-20 rounds of each powder increment charge) and there is concern for shooting variables as demonstrated by POI deviating from POA.

Keep shooting and testing and good loads will rise to the top.

 

[DMW1116]

I’m most concerned that I so easily wrote off a good load and didn’t plan on using it again. Now I have many more options.

 

[DMW1116]

Times being what they are in reloading, I snagged a bottle of HS-6 at Cabelas yesterday. I have a test array for W231 loaded with 115 grain Berrys bullets and plan to try the same for the HS-6. It also seems like a good powder for 125 grain JHPs in my 357 magnum. I plan to try a few of those too. I don’t know how well regarded the information is here but NATO Reloading gives HS-6 high marks for 9mm.

 

[JJFitch]

I use 115 gr FMJ/RN with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 at 1.130"-1.135" as my reference load not because it is the most accurate 9mm load rather because it is comparable to factory/white box in accuracy.

There are many other loads with Bullseye/WST/Titegroup/Sport Pistol/BE-86/WSF etc. that are more accurate than the W231/HP-38 reference load. In fact, Promo even produced smaller 50/100 yard groups than W231/HP-38 during my PCC testing with more consistent muzzle velocities using 95/100/115 gr bullets.


During my testing with pistol and carbine loads using different powders, once accuracy node powder charge was identified (And for some powders, accuracy node could be very narrow/tight) with longer 1.150"-1.160" OAL, using shorter 1.130"-1.135" OAL produced smaller groups. With 115 gr FMJ/plated RN bullets with shorter bullet base, going down to even shorter 1.110" produced even smaller groups (Likely from improved neck tension for more consistent pressure build) but depending on powder and charge used, I needed to lower the powder charge by around .1-.2 gr.

But once you identify an accurate load, accuracy should remain on subsequent range testings especially if sample size is small (I usually load 10-20 rounds of each powder increment charge) and there is concern for shooting variables as demonstrated by POI deviating from POA.

Keep shooting and testing and good loads will rise to the top.

Like you I went Hmmmm! when I saw a reference to +/- 3 inches at 25 yards as an "accuracy" load!

As a Precision Pistol and PPC Competition shooter anything over +/- 1" at 50 yards isn't very interesting! You can see my PPC 9 in my avatar that was my test vehicle for developing 9mm accuracy loads. My standard reference was the superb Winchester 147 grain, 9mm Target ammo from the 1990's. Too bad it was discontinued. Our Pistol Team was sponsored by Winchester! I still have a few cases left even though I'm retired from competition now.
For many years 9mm had difficulty getting much interest from accuracy shooters due to barrels and available powder. That all changed when SSAMI spec's governed 9mm!
Today's reloader has it much easier than 30-40 years ago!
I was never able to consistently get "sub 1" at 50" for my PPC-9 or "purpose built" Springfield Target 9mm with my reloads. Good enough for practice, 25 yards and lower level matches. My Win Target ammo was saved for matches where winning scores were determined by X-count!

Smiles,

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Times being what they are in reloading, I snagged a bottle of HS-6 at Cabelas yesterday. I have a test array for W231 loaded with 115 grain Berrys bullets and plan to try the same for the HS-6. It also seems like a good powder for 125 grain JHPs in my 357 magnum. I plan to try a few of those too. I don’t know how well regarded the information is here but NATO Reloading gives HS-6 high marks for 9mm.

I burn a lot of HS6 in 9mm and .45ACP. It needs some barrel. Light loads in snubbies are not that powder's specialty. However, having said that, it DID give the best overall accuracy and reliability in my 9mm Federal 105gr. eFMJ "Guard Dog" factory replication loads. It hit the same velocity as the factory load with a mid-range load. Very "clean" too.

 

[redcon1]

I have had encouraging results using 4.7 gr of Longshot behind a 147 gr Berry's Hybrid HP at 1.047". I was mostly testing to see if it would function with a suppressor and it did with 100% reliability. Accuracy was not bad considering I was aiming through the suppressor and the can was loosening up on me and I was using mixed headstamp range pickup brass. I think that's the load and I'm done with it actually but I need to get some suppressor thread sealer apparently at the least.

 

[Soonerpesek]

the can was loosening up on me and I was using mixed headstamp range pickup brass. I think that's the load and I'm done with it actually but I need to get some suppressor thread sealer apparently at the least.

Try using a thin rubber "o" ring on the barrel before threading the can on....

 

[redcon1]

Try using a thin rubber "o" ring on the barrel before threading the can on....

It's a griffin armament rev 45 attached to their cam lok system. It seemed to be perfectly secure to the barrel but the piston/spring housing that threads into the suppressor itself is unthreading from the body of the suppressor. Griffin recommends their ST-3A thread sealant. It's cheap. the shipping is more than the sealant. I was hoping to find it on amazon and avoid the shipping but no joy. My last range session was several tests actually. testing that cam lok set up and that ammunition. The test revealed that the load was good, I need that thread sealant and I need suppressor height sights or some alternative sighting device if I'm going to enjoy decent accuracy. The suppressor is for a 45 so it really fills up the sight picture too but it was quiet. The folks at the range were very curious about what was being shot over in my lane.

 

[Soonerpesek]

It's a griffin armament rev 45 attached to their cam lok system. It seemed to be perfectly secure to the barrel but the piston/spring housing that threads into the suppressor itself is unthreading from the body of the suppressor.

Gotcha....

Just curious, if you thread lock the housing in, how would you change back and forth...?
I don't have any GA products, just SiCo and Dead Air, but I would guess they all are rather similar in the mounting options...

Being quiet gets as many lookers as the flashy big boomers....It is pretty cool...!...

 

[redcon1]

Gotcha....

Just curious, if you thread lock the housing in, how would you change back and forth...?
I don't have any GA products, just SiCo and Dead Air, but I would guess they all are rather similar in the mounting options...

Being quiet gets as many lookers as the flashy big boomers....It is pretty cool...!...

It's not really thread locked like with loc tite. It's more like the threads are "rubberized" and that creates a tighter fit that isn't prone to backing out. You can still thread and unthread the sealed threads but if you do it enough, you'll simply have to reapply the thread sealer. When it came it was all sealed up this way but I have played with it enough that it all wore of.
The piston assembly itself isn't sealed onto the barrel threads this way mind you, just the various threads in the silencer itself. The threads giving me problems here are the piston sub assembly threads that create the suppressor/host interface. Now that I have universal cam loks on all my threaded barrels, there will not be any pressing need to change that piston when going between weapons like I used to have to do. I thought that was a really slick idea on their part so I have been incorporating those cam loks onto all of my pistol threaded barrels. They look kind of dorky but they seem to work.

 

[Blue68f100]

That kind of sounds like Vibra-Tite.

 

[DMW1116]

I loaded up some test charges with 115 grain Berrys and HS-6. I’ll test them later today. I like the way this powder handles when loading. The flattened balls aren’t as sticky as W231. For this load it fills a lot of the case. Double charging would have the case either overflowing or at least obviously double charged with powder right up to the top. The only downside is it’s not as economical as 231 or CFE Pistol. Depending on which load shoots best I’ll be using as much as 38% more powder per shot. NATO Reloading dot com give it very high marks for accuracy and velocity though so if accuracy is considerably better than the other two I can overlook the consumption increase.

 

[LeftyTSGC]

In the Reloading Library of Wisdom Sticky at the front of this forum is a thread on BE-86, there is a bunch of data from all of us here. take a look it may help with what you are trying to accomplish.

Leftytsgc

 

[Walkalong]

Yep.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/be-86.760289/

 

[DMW1116]

Well that’s all done. Got a couple surprises and a few confirmations of what I already thought.

First I found about 4 loads with the Berrys 115 grain bullets that will all work as practice ammo. Groups are acceptably small and the point of impact is very close to the Hornady XTP load. The surprise was the CFE P load was among the most consistent.

I was able to confirm the Berrys 147 grain and W231 is a good load for both the Shield and M&P9. There are a couple loads that use HS-6 that are quite good as well.

Finally I have to accept the fact that the most accurate and consistent load is also the most expensive. The Lehigh Xtreme Defender load is dead on for point of impact and the most accurate load I tried.

I do need to pull a few more Acme bullets and find their best load. They shoot pretty well out of the Shield but the point of impact is too far right compared to the others. They will likely end up as practice ammo for the M&P9. They shoot pretty good out of it and it’s easy to keep them separated since they’re the only green ones.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I've ordered some .356 lead bullets from GT. (I was ordering something else and upsold myself)

Have not loaded 9x19 and dont even have the dies yet.

What I have coming are 130 gr lead hollow points. For some reason I thought that was neat. Haven't even checked my books for loads, yet.
I think they'll be fine at about 950-1050 fps.

I have 700x, Titegroup, CFE P, and Enforcer, so I think I'll be using CFE P.

As for the 9mm guns, I have 2 pistols with polygonal rifling and a Beretta carbine.

Advice?

 

[nofendertom]

Polygonal rifling + lead bullets---isn't this frowned upon ?

 

[Shivahasagun]

Polygonal rifling + lead bullets---isn't this frowned upon ?

I thought it was okay if the barrel was cleaned every few hundred rounds and the load was not especially lead inducing.

I was also thinking the slightly heavier bullet at a moderate speed would be okay.

 

[DMW1116]

I’ve heard coated bullets are more agreeable to polygonal rifling but have nothing to test that with for myself.

I also ran those HS-6 loads today and they worked pretty well. I have half a box of the Berrys 115 grain bullets left I’ll probably pair with the HS-6. I found another box unopened of the Berrys 115 grain bullets so that was a nice surprise. I’ll put them in the CFE P load and should have enough to last me a while. I do think the HS-6 is a little hotter but that’s based on the perceived recoil. These kick noticeably harder than the 147 grain load I’ve been using.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I thought it was okay if the barrel was cleaned every few hundred rounds and the load was not especially lead inducing.

I was also thinking the slightly heavier bullet at a moderate speed would be okay.

That’s a good bullet. GT uses a 2-2-96 alloy which opens up at under 900fps nicely. If I recall, the proscription on lead in polygonal rifling has to do with streaking with high velocity loads. Keep it under 1000fps use a lower heat signature nitrocellulose powder - not a double base - and it should be fine. Try it out and let us know.