9mm Load Development and Observations

[DMW1116]

There was a similar thread on 357 magnum that provided a great deal of insight and led to a couple of great loads for my Blackhawk. Hopefully this one will do the same for mine and others 9mms.

My first loads were with CFE Pistol and some Berrys 115 grain hollow base plates bullets. Accuracy was ok, about equal to factory FMJ loads. I tested them off a rest at 20 or 25 yards and chose the best one out of my M&P 9. Then I tried with some 115 grain Berrys solid plated bullets with about the same result. Better results came from 147 grain XTP bullets from Hornady at near max charge. Even better were some Lehigh Extreme Defenders in the 90ish grain range. With that exception both my Shield and M&P9 either prefer heavier bullets, better bullets, or just lower velocity in general.

Enter Winchester 231 powder and some Acme cast 125 grain bullets. This combination has proven noticeably more accurate even through my attempts to down load it to hearing safe levels (failed). These are my go to target bullet now even though I’m going to have to pull about 200 of them since my experiments led to a very light load that won’t cycle during the colder months.

I also tried a minimum book charge of W231 with some 147 grain Berrys and these have proven suitably accurate as well, particularly out of my Shield, hitting the edges of playing cards from 5 yards repeatedly.

I’m now resigned to using W231 for my 9mm target loads and saving the CFE Pistol for higher velocity loads while giving up a little accuracy. Oddly I am now using the CFE Pistol for target loads in my 357 magnum.

I plan to pull a few of the Acme bullets for a true accuracy load work up with W231 and to do a dedicated work up of some remaining Berrys 115 grain bullets with W231 as well.

Has anyone tried CFE Pistol with cast 9mm? Is it best to treat the 115 grain Berrys bullets as cast or FMJ?

 

[LaneP]

CFE-P is all I've used in 9mm as of recent, with 125 gr Hunter's Supply lead FP and 147 gr coated from Missouri bullets. I find it delivers excellent velocity, is clean and super consistent. I load Berry's 124 gr plated (don't have 115's) with lead bullet data. 5.0 gr CFE-P hits 990 fps out of the 3.1" bbl of my Shield 9.

 

[jmorris]

Great write up! What were your charge weights? I also understand the general idea about your group sizes but part of me is curious what “ok”, “suitably”, “little” and “better” size groups are in inches.

I have never found any plated bullet as accurate as a decent JHP. Plated bullets generally are good up to 1200 fps though and are usable for lots of stuff if you stay under that speed.

If I found out after I loaded that many rounds, that they only cycle during the summer, I would wait and shoot them when it’s hot again but I despise pulling bullets.

 

[rperyam]

I've ended up just using 124 grain either FMJ or JHP RMR bullets for all of my loads. I've been using 4.3 grains of Winchester 231 powder in most of my loads. I've used 6.0 grains of Power Pistol in my Ruger Carbine which I really like. When I used the PP loads in my handguns you get quite a fireball. Grandkids like that and only a touch more recoil than the Winchester load. Looking forward to see how this thread moves in the future.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

There was a similar thread on 357 magnum that provided a great deal of insight and led to a couple of great loads for my Blackhawk. Hopefully this one will do the same for mine and others 9mms.

My first loads were with CFE Pistol and some Berrys 115 grain hollow base plates bullets. Accuracy was ok, about equal to factory FMJ loads. I tested them off a rest at 20 or 25 yards and chose the best one out of my M&P 9. Then I tried with some 115 grain Berrys solid plated bullets with about the same result. Better results came from 147 grain XTP bullets from Hornady at near max charge. Even better were some Lehigh Extreme Defenders in the 90ish grain range. With that exception both my Shield and M&P9 either prefer heavier bullets, better bullets, or just lower velocity in general.

Enter Winchester 231 powder and some Acme cast 125 grain bullets. This combination has proven noticeably more accurate even through my attempts to down load it to hearing safe levels (failed). These are my go to target bullet now even though I’m going to have to pull about 200 of them since my experiments led to a very light load that won’t cycle during the colder months.

I also tried a minimum book charge of W231 with some 147 grain Berrys and these have proven suitably accurate as well, particularly out of my Shield, hitting the edges of playing cards from 5 yards repeatedly.

I’m now resigned to using W231 for my 9mm target loads and saving the CFE Pistol for higher velocity loads while giving up a little accuracy. Oddly I am now using the CFE Pistol for target loads in my 357 magnum.

I plan to pull a few of the Acme bullets for a true accuracy load work up with W231 and to do a dedicated work up of some remaining Berrys 115 grain bullets with W231 as well.

Has anyone tried CFE Pistol with cast 9mm? Is it best to treat the 115 grain Berrys bullets as cast or FMJ?

I like the ACME “Green Meanies” quite a lot. They have a longer driving band than most 124/125gr RN profile bullets. I think you’ll find the longer the driving band, the more blunt the nose profile and the more sensitive the bullet is to seating depth. Just something to keep in mind when working up accuracy loads.
FYI, I use lead data for coated and plated as my start and work up to a best, most reliable, fastest load that works in all of my guns.

 

[DMW1116]

The other thread was a smashing success for me. I hope the others got something out of it. To put numbers on it I found a load with CFE Pistol and Hornady 148 grain HBWC that shot about 1.25” at 25 yards from my Blackhawk and a full power Alliant 2400 load that shoots just over an inch with 158 grain XTPs.

My experiments with 9mm gave about 3” groups at best and more like 5” on average. The Lehigh and 147 grain XTPs might have been a little tighter and I did try some 115 grain XTPs with CFE Pistol that were so bad I gave the rest away. I couldn’t keep 5 shots on a piece of notebook paper at 25 yards.

I did some digging and found on 9-hole reviews channel on YouTube that 4 to 5 inch groups are about average with the service pistols they tried and factory ammo. A couple of very expensive race guns did considerably better but still not as good as my Blackhawk. I did a lot of load testing for my rifles for a while and now it seems I’m back to pistols.

All that said I’d like to find a good target load that shoots about 3” at 25 yards. That will beat the factory loads I’ve tried, which admittedly were a variety of FMJ loads, but they shot around the 4”-5” mark.

I’m also willing to concede that when I tested those first loads back last spring and winter I just wasn't a good pistol shot or good reloaded or both as I started reloading in August of 2020.

 

[Walkalong]

If I found out after I loaded that many rounds, that they only cycle during the summer, I would wait and shoot them when it’s hot again but I despise pulling bullets.

Indeed!

I changed primers with a soft load once and it struggled at times to eject fully, but I just lived with it until I shot them up.

 

[DMW1116]

Those green bullets are AWESOME, at least from my guns. I never did a proper accuracy load test with them so I’m convinced their potential is limitless.

When I first tested them I started at 3.9 grains of W231. That was a minimum load from somewhere in my bound blue book of 9mm loads. I dropped them down to 2.7 grains before they quit running my M&P9. No squibs or anything, but they turned my semiauto into a pump action pistol. The first batch all went into the 10 ring of a 6” Shoot’N’See from 15 yards. I was astonished because even the factory ammo in that gun had never done that.

I checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Manual and they don’t have a 115 grain bullet but I figure 120 is close enough. The thing is they are more than a grain less than either Hodgden for a LRN bullet and their maximum load is Hornadys starting load. They also use a shorter COAL than either.

For loads in my testing, I’m currently using 5 grains of CFE Pistol with the 115 grain Berrys and only three grains of W231 with the 125 grain Acme. That is Lymans starting charge for the cast LRN 120 grain bullet so I’m betting that won’t run my guns either unless the shorter COAL makes up for it. Which reminds me, could I maybe just reseat the summer loads a little deeper and get them to work? They’re near 1.15” COAL now.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

Those green bullets are AWESOME, at least from my guns. I never did a proper accuracy load test with them so I’m convinced their potential is limitless.

When I first tested them I started at 3.9 grains of W231. That was a minimum load from somewhere in my bound blue book of 9mm loads. I dropped them down to 2.7 grains before they quit running my M&P9. No squibs or anything, but they turned my semiauto into a pump action pistol. The first batch all went into the 10 ring of a 6” Shoot’N’See from 15 yards. I was astonished because even the factory ammo in that gun had never done that.

I checked my Lyman Cast Bullet Manual and they don’t have a 115 grain bullet but I figure 120 is close enough. The thing is they are more than a grain less than either Hodgden for a LRN bullet and their maximum load is Hornadys starting load. They also use a shorter COAL than either.

For loads in my testing, I’m currently using 5 grains of CFE Pistol with the 115 grain Berrys and only three grains of W231 with the 125 grain Acme. That is Lymans starting charge for the cast LRN 120 grain bullet so I’m betting that won’t run my guns either unless the shorter COAL makes up for it. Which reminds me, could I maybe just reseat the summer loads a little deeper and get them to work? They’re near 1.15” COAL now.

My lightest load with the ACME 125’s with W231 is 3.3gr with a COAL of 1.090”. That will run all my guns reliably and put the bullets where I want them, mostly. If you can reseat them twenty-five thousandths deeper without scraping the coating off, give it a try. If not, hold them back for summer.

 

[DMW1116]

I think I’ll start safe with the Lyman data at 3 grains with the shorter COAL and work up to 4 grains. If I don’t find a good load in that range I’ll move to Hodgdens data.

 

[LiveLife]

Is it best to treat the 115 grain Berrys bullets as cast or FMJ?

With regular plated bullets, I have used lead load data with good results as using higher than mid-range jacketed load data affected accuracy.

about 3” groups at best and more like 5” on average ... at 25 yards ... found ... that 4 to 5 inch groups are about average with the service pistols ... and factory ammo.

FYI, here's a listing of various factory pistols and factory ammunition tested at 25 yards and some are quite accurate out of the box with many producing sub 3" groups and some sub 2" groups - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10940688

I’d like to find a good target load that shoots about 3” at 25 yards. That will beat the factory loads I’ve tried, which admittedly were a variety of FMJ loads, but they shot around the 4”-5” mark.

Since we are in another shortage, maybe I could help you save some components and time.

If you are looking for accurate 9mm "target load", because slower burning powders than Unique/Universal tend to produce optimal accuracy at high-to-max load data, you will likely find more accurate lighter target loads using W231/HP-38 and faster burning powders with the exception of WSF/BE-86 that can produce accuracy down to mid-range load data.

There are many popular powders that will produce sub 3" groups at 25 yards (WST, Bullseye, Titegroup, Sport Pistol, W231/HP-38, WSF, BE-86, etc.) but I found bullet selection to be critical to accuracy (jacketed vs lead/coated vs plated) and often our reloads/pistols/barrels are more accurate than our ability to shoot them.

As a baseline for accuracy, for decades I have used 115 gr FMJ/RN with 4.8 gr of W231/HP-38 at 1.130"-1.135" OAL as my reference 9mm load that can produce around 3"-4" groups at 25 yards on par with many factory ammunition for comparison. I will use my reference load for range testing other bullet/powder combinations to determine more accurate loads or to verify if I am having a bad range day when powder work up testing produces larger groups.

Accuracy wise, WST and BE-86 loads have been the ones to beat. BTW, WST published 9mm load data thread - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...er-target-published-load-data-for-9mm.870180/

My first loads were with ... Berrys 115 grain hollow base plates bullets. Accuracy was ok, about equal to factory FMJ loads ... Then I tried with some 115 grain Berrys solid plated bullets

While plated bullet accuracy may not be good as jacketed bullet accuracy, I found 124 gr bullets with longer base can produce greater accuracy than 115 gr bullets. Here's Berry's regular plated RN and Titegroup producing sub 3" 25 yard groups.

Above picture shows Berry's regular plated 115 gr RN bullet with solid base on the left, 124 gr Hollow Base RN with thicker plating, 115 gr HBRN-TP and Winchester 115 gr FMJ on the right - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...hollow-base-bullets-now.872493/#post-11587269

I found with 115 gr FMJ/RN bullets, 4.5 gr of W231/HP-38 will start to reliably cycle the slides of my Glocks and will start to produce accuracy trend with 4.6 gr and 4.8 gr will produce slightly smaller groups. I found shorter 1.130"-1.135" OAL will produce smaller groups than 1.150"-1.155" OAL. (To squeeze out greater accuracy, I have used shorter OAL down to 1.110"-1.125" but because 9mm is a tapered case, using much shorter than 1.100" will actually start to loose neck tension and increase group size or bullets will start to just drop into the case)

And because 115 gr FMJ/RN with shorter bullet base can have neck tension/bullet setback issues, particularly with smaller diameter .355" bullets and thinner case wall brass, I will check bullet setback for "chambered OAL" consistency for greater accuracy - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...neck-tension-and-bullet-setback.830072/page-4

For small internal case volume 9mm, small changes can significantly affect accuracy and even though you have consistent bullet/powder charge combination, other reloading variables such as OAL/bullet sizing/case wall thickness and resulting bullet setback can increase group size.

I’m also willing to concede that when I tested those first loads back last spring and winter I just wasn't a good pistol shot or good reloaded or both as I started reloading in August of 2020.

If I found out after I loaded that many rounds, that they only cycle during the summer, I would wait and shoot them when it’s hot again but I despise pulling bullets.

W231/HP-38 is temperature sensitive and will produce lower velocities in colder temperatures so I just use higher powder charge that will work year round - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-7#post-10117881

 

[kidneyboy]

I have 3 "go to" loads that have run in all my 9mm's over time.
With 124 or 125gr coated bullets - 3.6 or 3.7gr of titegroup
With 124gr plated (particularly Berry's 124gr HBRNTP) - 4.3gr W231
With 145 - 147gr coated bullets - 3.1gr titegroup

RMR 124gr JHP's I have had to tailor to each gun. However I always end up with a very accurate round with these.

 

[mdi]

I have been using a lot of CFE P with my 9mm handloads, with a lot of my cast and PCed Lee 125 gr, RF. A while back I submitted to the Wonder 9 and bought a Ruger LC9s and started reloading 9mm and now I have 5, 9mm guns. My cast loads all work well, even 147 gr TC loads, and Hornady JHP of 124 gr are outstanding in my Masada and do quite well in my other 9mms. Right now I'm working primatily with a Taurus 9mm revolver and finding the CFE P loads working well in the 2" snubbie. I have used many of the usual 9mm powders but have used a lot of Unique and Universal, and found some BR-5 that seems to be working well (one of my better loads is a 124 gr, XTP over a Universal charge; 10% below book max.). For me and my guns, the poorest performing bullets were 125 gr plated, RN and HP, so I don't load them anymore...

 

[LiveLife]

I think OP is looking for lighter target load (not full power load) that will produce 3" groups at 25 yards.

I’d like to find a good target load that shoots about 3” at 25 yards.

 

[DMW1116]

It doesn’t really matter the power level. I’m just looking for the most accurate load. I mean I use 800 fps wadcutters from my 357 so clearly power isn’t the goal. With times what they are, stretching my powder further wouldn’t hurt my feeling either.

 

[lordpaxman]

Has anyone tried CFE Pistol with cast 9mm? Is it best to treat the 115 grain Berrys bullets as cast or FMJ?

I’ve tried CFEP with coated cast, not sure if that’s what you have or not? I prefer a much faster powder, 231 or faster with a coated cast bullet. Different plated bullet companies specify different load data, Berry’s I believe says use either cast or lower jacketed data, but I prefer to use the lower jacketed data as the starting point, especially with faster powders. Good luck.

 

[fxvr5]

It doesn’t really matter the power level. I’m just looking for the most accurate load. I mean I use 800 fps wadcutters from my 357 so clearly power isn’t the goal. With times what they are, stretching my powder further wouldn’t hurt my feeling either.

"The most accurate load"

You're unlikely to find that with plated or cast bullets. Although Speer GDHP (plated) might be an exception.

Your best chance is a quality JHP or JFP bullet. Suggested bullets: Zero 115 JHP conical, Zero 125 JHP conical, Hornady 115 XTP, Hornady 115 HAP, Hornady 125 HAP.

Powders I've used with excellent results in a 9mm Kart barrel: Power Pistol, Silhouette, Accurate #7, 231, BE-86, N350.

 

[RashQuestion]

I've had good luck with RMR 124gr JHP bullets and True Blue. Just tried BE-86 with the same and I'm pleased with the results!

God Bless with a Happy and Prosperous New Year to All!!!

 

[Shak3s1977]

I've had good luck with RMR 124gr JHP bullets and True Blue. Just tried BE-86 with the same and I'm pleased with the results!

God Bless with a Happy and Prosperous New Year to All!!!

That's good to hear. I just ordered 2k of those 124gr JHP RMR bullets last night. I am currently loading RMR 115gr RN bullets with True Blue with excellent results. I can't wait to try the 124's.

 

[DMW1116]

I checked my notes and I’ve already tried the Hodgden load of W231 for the 115 grain bullets. My notes say it had good accuracy.

I did load up a test batch of 115 grain Berrys with the Lyman data from the Cast Bullet Manual. That starts at 3 grains and goes up to 4.1. I stopped at 3.9. I used their shorter overall length as well. It’s 1.065” compared to the 1.1” or even 1.15” I’m used to seeing. They’re stubby little things especially next to the 1.125” COAL I used for the Acme 125 grain LRN.

I pulled 20 of the Acme summer time loads and reloaded them with an array of 5 charge weights to see which was most accurate. I started at 3.5 grains of W231 and went up to 4.3. The load from Hodgden shows 4.4 as the maximum.

I have quite the test day planned for the next range trip with 9mm.

115 grain Berrys with 5 grains of CFE P
115 grain Berrys with cast loads of 231
125 grain Acme with an array of 231
147 grain Berrys with a minimum of 231

I basically just want to shoot my 9s and seeing how these loads compare is as good a reason as any. I figure 10 yards off a rest will be sufficient.

 

[LiveLife]

test batch of 115 grain Berrys with the Lyman data from the Cast Bullet Manual. That starts at 3 grains and goes up to 4.1 ... I stopped at 3.9 ... overall length ... 1.065”

You may want to add 4.3 gr and 4.5 gr loads for your test based on Hodgdon's lead load data - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• 9mm 115 gr Lead RN W231/HP-38 COL 1.100" Start 4.3 gr (1,079 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (1,135 fps)

 

[DMW1116]

Depending on how these run I probably will. The Lyman cast loads have a 0.035” shorter COAL so I wanted to stick with that. If these are not satisfactory I will do a full sequence in the Hodgden LRN data with the 1.1” COAL.

 

[DMW1116]

Interestingly the starting load for a Hornady 115 grain FMJ is 4.1 grains with the same 1.1” COAL and overlaps up to 4.7 grains of 231.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

You may want to add 4.3 gr and 4.5 gr loads for your test based on Hodgdon's lead load data - https://www.hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center

• 9mm 115 gr Lead RN W231/HP-38 COL 1.100" Start 4.3 gr (1,079 fps) - Max 4.8 gr (1,135 fps)

4.3gr of W231 is where I have seen the first signs of diminishing returns with 9mm swaged and cast bullets, 125gr and lighter - in my Star BM and FEG Hi-Power. In other pistols that can change. 3.8gr with 125gr Saeco cast LSWC is a sweet spot, same for Alberts swaged RN but for 115gr steel jacketed Wolf pull-down RN I have to bump it up to 4.3gr. I think trying 4.3+ is very good advice since so much depends on the individual pistol and what it likes. What is very reliable in my FEG may or may not even cycle my wife’s CZ 75 Compact. Just as an example.

 

[DMW1116]

115 grain Berrys with 5 grains of CFE P
115 grain Berrys with cast loads of 231
125 grain Acme with an array of 231
147 grain Berrys with a minimum of 231

I tried a lot of 9mm today. I was pleasantly surprised and rarely disappointed. UNO testing was done with my Shield and an 8 round magazine from a rest at 10 yards.

First the 115 grain Berrys bullets and the Lyman cast bullet data were the only disappointment. None of the loads were terribly accurate and the most accurate was the lightest and had a failure as it was just shy of being able to cycle. This was the only failure during testing. The failure was on the first round of 5 and the rest cycled no problem. These were loaded with W231 powder. These all grouped slightly to the right of POA.

Next was the first surprise. I tried 4 rounds of the 115 grain Berrys with CFE P. These went into a good group barely right of center. The group was so tight I shot 3 more to confirm and the group didn’t get any bigger. This is exactly the opposite of what I expected. I have talked about how the CFE P wasn’t as accurate in my 9s as W231 loads for a while. However I have to say today that proved to be wrong. For today’s testing this load was as accurate as the best of the other loads.

After that came the array of tests with W231 and 125 grain Acme cast bullets. I tried charges through the full range of weights provided by Hodgden from my bound blue book of 9mm loads. Accuracy here was also excellent. However the POI was about 2 inches left of the POA. The group size was as good as the 115 grain Berrys and CFE P tested above. Considering these were already loaded once, pulled, and loaded again I’m pretty happy with the results. The best load was the minimum load.

For the next load I tried the 147 grain Berrys bullet with a minimum charge of W231. Data came either from the Lyman 50th Edition manual or Hodgdens web site. I’ll have to check my notes and find out. I’ll have to test a bit more here. Accuracy was just slightly behind the 115 grain Berrys CFE P load but it was centered nicely and just above the front sight. The reason for more testing is I had 2 fliers (of 7shots) that went high by quite a bit. I’m going to say they were a problem with the nut behind the trigger but need to be sure.

The last test with the Shield was my carry load. It is a 147 grain Hornady XTP over a near max charge of CFE P. This was the most accurate Shield load of the day, grouping about 7/8” and very nearly centered on the target. I was using a 6 o’clock hold on an NRA 50 yard small bore rifle target so the group hit about 2” high from POA. I’m perfectly fine with that and am very happy with this load. This load shot very close to the center windage wise, being about 1/2” to the right.

To summarize Shield testing, the 115 grain Berrys with CFE P is much better than I thought and mimics my carry load very well so it will probably become my practice load for the 147 grain XTP load. The 147 grain Berrys is very promising as a target load if I can figure out if the fliers were caused by my shooting deficiencies or my reloading deficiencies. The POI is just slightly off, but not so much I’m worried unless I’m shooting past 15 yards or so. The Acme bullets shoot well out of my M&P9 but the lateral shift is going to knock them out as a Shield practice round. It appears I need to drift my front sight slightly to correct for windage. The manual recommends the front rather than the rear for corrections.

For fun and variety I tried some loads in my M&P9 too. I did not have any test arrays made up for this gun so it was limited to the 115 grain Berrys CFE P load, the 147 grain W231 minimum load, and just a couple from my HD load with a near max charge of CFE P under a Lehigh Xtreme Defender cold swaged all copper bullet.

The 115 Berrys load performed basically the same, with a nice group just a bit right of center. Honestly I don’t know how I gained such a low opinion of this load.

The 147 grain Berrys load was outstanding. I shot 7 total in a group of 4 and a group of 3. Again I think I pulled one flier in the first group then on a whim shot one off hand that went high. Other than that the remaining 5 shots went into 2 separate ragged holes. The wind moved the target around on the second group so those shots are separated from the first set. This time the flier went low, so it seems certain it’s my shooting to blame, not the load. This load is also slightly off center, but barely.

For the Lehigh load I only fired 2, as I have a very limited supply. Both shots went through one hole just at the top edge of my front sight. This is an excellent load for this pistol. It shoots well out of the Shield too but not this good.

For future trials it seems obvious I should try the 147 grain Berrys bullet with CFE P and also do a full test array with W231. I’m content with the load as it is so I may just try a few more to confirm the fliers were me.

If you’re still reading I leave you now to someone else’s wall of text.