9mm luger/ parabellum and 115/124/147gr ?

[NCMom]

It would seem that as is true with many things, the more you know about guns and ammo, the more you realize you don't know!:banghead:
Could someone please explain to me the difference between 9mm luger and 9mm parabellum?
In looking through our ammo supplies, I found a box of Federal Premium 9mm luger 147 grain hydra-shok jhp. I recalled reading an article that said never to use 147 grain ammo.
That article is here: http://www.chuckhawks.com/ammo_by_anonymous.htm
That box is what was recommended for defense carry when we bought my S&W 3913LS and hubbies CZ99. Is it not safe or good to use this?
I have read my owners manual and the online manual for S&W. They advise against any +P or +P+ ammo but I can find nothing about grains. It also says to use the cartridge designation indicated on the barrel. My LS says 9mm parabellum. Does that mean I shouldn't use ammo labeled as 9mm luger?
Help please????????????
Many Thanks!

 

[Jimfern]

luger=parabellum

9mm Luger is the same as 9mm parabellum. I can't speak to the self protection aspects of the different rounds, but there are many people on this site who can.

 

[Gun Slinger]

NC,

The information contained in that link is fairly outdated, dare I say obsolete, and current manufacture 147 gr. JHP's are much improved since that particular piece was written.

If using the 9mm as a SD/CCW/HD caliber, I would say that you would be well served by any of the current manufacture premium SD ammunition as loaded by the larger manufacturers (Federal, Remington, Winchester, Hornady, CCI-Speer, etc.) in any of the commonly avaiable weights (115, 124 or 147) in the S&W. It is a solid, well made design that should feed the Hydrashok well (mine always has) and if your pistol won't, you will find many other options available, at least one of which will function properly in your pistol.

The 9mm 147 gr. Hydrashok is an older design that was used by my Department until shortly before I retired from LE Service and we had no problems with its employment or its performance in the field through many shootings. It should be safe to fire through your pistol as it is standard pressure ammunition.

Jimfern has you set straight. The 9mm is also referred to as the 9mmP, 9x19, 9mm Luger, 9mm NATO, 9mm Parabellum and they are all "one in the same".

 

[Deus Machina]

Luger came from the company that made it big, 'parabellum' comes from the phrase 'si vis pacem, para bellum', meaning 'If you want peace, prepare for war.' Same cartridge.

There shouldn't be any problem with using different bullet weights in a gun, but a general rule is the lighter the bullet, the faster it goes and (arguably) the less recoil you feel.

+P may or may not work well for you. When in doubt, listen to the manual.

The weight is up to you. Generally, lighter hollowpoints penetrate less, but expand quicker. Some 147 grain that was designed as lighter ammo to begin--supposedly--has a hard time expanding at all. That's not a strict rule, and you should look up testing on your carry ammo.

If you're worried about it, 124-grain is a the best compromise IMO if you don't use +P.

 

[polizei36]

9mm luger/ parabellum and 115/124/147gr ?They advise against any +P or +P+ ammo but I can find nothing about grains.

Here is something about grains I thought of.

Generally speaking (I my opinion from my past readings on various ammo articles on the internet and opined ammo reports):
115gr= light, fast, reliable expansion and good energy transfer to your human target.
124gr= Heavier and fast, better penetration ability and can defeat some common barriers (light walls, car doors etc..) while still effectively penetrating the human target.
147gr= Was (I think) designed for deep penetration to the target to reach vital organs. It was originally designed for sub machine guns (MP5 and such) with silencers/suppressors.

I am no expert on this topic, this is just my opinion as stated above from third party sources (which all report different results and so forth during their individual tests).

Hope this helps a little on the grain question.

Dave

 

[gwnorth]

Despite what the link you have says, my SIG P226 and 9mm's I've used (CZ-75, Ruger, Browning) have all happily fed and fired 147gr rounds, both FMJ and JHP - WWB, Remington/UMC, Fiocchi and Speer Gold Dot. So reliability is not the issue.

I do think that 124gr JHP's are a better compromise of velocity and mass for a self defense 9mm (the 147gr rounds are quite a bit slower).

 

[BlindJustice]

First off the cartridge name,

THe 9MM Parabellum was developed from the .30 Luger bottlenecked cartridge by request of the German Military. So, the bottleneck of the .30 Luger was straightened out and voila a 9MM slight tapered case. It was chambered in the Luger P08 pistol. George Luger designed the pistol, but they were made by Mauser as well as DWM for the german military. Today, it's rare to see a luger pistol but it's memory has us now calling the cartridge the 9MM Luger - and the European designation of a Metric Bore x cartridge length makes the 9mm Luger also a 9x19. 9mm NATO refers to 9x19/9MM Luger loaded to a certain NATO spec with 124 gr. FMJ.

The standard bullet weight for 9MM LUger since 1908 was the 124 gr. FMJ. In the late '60s/early '70s when Jacketed Hollow points became popular the easiest way to produce a faster JHP by most companies was to keep the same bullet profile with the hollo point reducing bullet weight and with the same powder charge = increased velocity.

115 gr. & 124 gr. both fire at above the speed of sound, The 147 gr. was originally designed for as stated in the thread for a suppressed SMG, so the heavier bullet is loaded by most manufacturers to around 1,000 FPS which is less than the speed of sound - 1,120 fps approx. THe extra weight of the bullet gives the bullet more mass to give it better penetration with less velocity.

Since the late 70s/early 80s, makers of JHPs taylor them to the usual bullet weight/velocity combo for optimim,um performance instead of one size fits all.

Some users like the 147 gr. for HD/shoot inside at less than the speed of sound and less noise - no sonic BOOM

Randall



ok? .

 

[Jim Watson]

Good recommendations here.
The first consideration is reliability. YOUR gun(s) must work with the ammunition chosen. Somebody has made a reasonable case for any bullet weight and style.
For US self defense, a name brand hollowpoint that runs through your gun is best.
At present I carry Federal 9BP, a standard velocity old tech 115 grain hollowpoint. When my supply is depleted, I will see what is available. I shoot IDPA competition with 147 grain FMJs because the felt recoil is low, but that is not the same thing.

Plus P means only that the ammunition is loaded to approximately 10% greater chamber pressure than standard. If they chose their powder wisely that should translate to about 5% higher muzzle velocity. If they didn't, it can all go into blast and flash. Much European 9mm ammunition is at or near US +P levels and none of it will hurt a sound gun.

Plus P Plus is a different matter. There is no industry standard for +P+, the ammunition company is just loading what THEY think the guns will stand. Most common on government contracts where the taxpayer is buying, repairing, and replacing guns. I don't use it.

 

[NCMom]

Thank You ALL!
Gun Slinger....you stated, "current manufacture 147 gr. JHP's are much improved since that particular piece was written." As best I can tell this box is from somewhere between 1991 and 1993. Would that fall in the time frame of since they have been improved or should I be concerned?
Thanks again!

 

[Marcus L.]

As some of the other posters have mentioned, the 9mm goes by many names. These are the most common:

1) 9mm
2) 9x19mm
3) 9mm Luger
4) 9mm Parabellum
5) 9mm NATO

It's one of the oldest cartridges still in use at just over 100 years old. However, it was so well designed that it will likely still be in use longer than any of the other cartridges on the market. It has a slight taper to its casing which improves feeding and allows for better chamber support for safety, and it uses more elongated bullets which have better sectional density and can be used for other loads such as piercing ammo. Also, as others have mentioned the 147gr bullet has GREATLY evolved since Chuck Hawks commentary on it. It is the best overall 9mm bullet weight because it has superior performance in terms of penetrating deeply and reliably, while expanding very well. It also has less recoil, less muzzle flash, and less noise to allow the shooter to use it more effectively than high pressure loads like 124gr+P and 127gr+P+.

All of the following loads meet the FBI's standardized testing in both bare gel and through the barrier tests. The results are a combination of the FBI testing done to determine their new 2007 ammo contract, and the Firearms Institute. If you don't see a particular load on the list, it probably didn't pass:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 105 & 115gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical Bonded 124gr+P JHP (LE9T1)
Speer Gold Dot 124gr+P JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 124gr+P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Partition Gold 124gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 127gr+P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical Bonded 135gr+P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester Ranger Bonded 147gr JHP (RA9B/Q4364) FBI Load

Notice that more 147gr bullets excelled at this testing than did lighter grain weights.

 

[.357 magnum]

NC Mom

Marcus L. has it correctly. The New generation [if you will] High Tech Law Enforcement Ammo is Vastly improved over the older 147gr loads. The loads you found are Old Tech and I would not recommend them for Self/Home Defense. If the gun you use is not made for +P loads. I would purchase some Winchester 147gr Bonded or Federal 147gr Tactical HST of the non +P variety. These are Excellent loads with Maximum Penetration and Expansion. These can be purchased online in boxes of 50 at a very good price. See the links below.

The Best to You and Yours!

Frank

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/

http://www.prestostore.com/cgi-bin/storefront.pl?ref=hotpig27&pg=29119

 

[Hawaiian]

Great info here. Thanks everyone.

How does the 147gr perform out of a short barrel? Say a snubbie or a Kahr PM9

 

[Marcus L.]

How does the 147gr perform out of a short barrel? Say a snubbie or a Kahr PM9

Due to the small amount of powder used by the 9mm versus the .40S&W, .357sig, and .45acp......it is less effected by velocity loss from shorter barrels. There is less powder to burn, so most of it burns up in the barrel. The .45acp was standardized around the 5" barrel, so when you use a barrel less than 4" you lose a considerable amount of performance because more of the powder ignition burns up outside the barrel instead of inside. The 9mm was designed around the 4" barrel.

The 147gr load is less depended on velocity to perform well, so if anything you want to use 147gr bullets in shorter length barrels. I would use Winchester Ranger Talons or Federal HST in a subcompact. If you need to shoot through stuff like windshields, then pick one of the heavier bonded bullet loads.

 

[bluetopper]

147gr cast lead flat point reloads is all I ever shoot in my Dan Wesson 9mm 1911 with great results.

 

[Gun Slinger]

Gun Slinger....you stated, "current manufacture 147 gr. JHP's are much improved since that particular piece was written." As best I can tell this box is from somewhere between 1991 and 1993. Would that fall in the time frame of since they have been improved or should I be concerned?
Thanks again!

NC,

Sorry 'bout the delayed response time to your question.

Federal 9mm 147 gr. Hydrashoks of that "vintage" are probably a bit on the "old" side. Best to relegate them to "practice ammo" status and get some fresh new ammo.

If you are intent on remaining with the 9mm 147 gr. subsonic JHPs due to the mild recoil and reduced muzzle blast signature that they offer you have several options.

You can:

1. Get some more of the Federal 147 gr. Hydrashoks if the design apeals to you. Being an "older" design they are typically available for a little bit less than the newer "whiz-bang" designs and will do the job if you do yours. Or if you want something else that is a little less expensive but of acceptable quality, I highly recommend the Hornady Custom 147 gr. XTP JHPs #90282 (don't waste your money on the TAP-FPD stuff since it uses the same XTP bullet that the cheaper "Custom" load does without you having to pay for the needless black nickel coated cases ) due to their excellent accuracy and the fact that they pass the F.B.I. test "protocols".

Tests for Hornady 9mm 147 gr. XTP JHP:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376514&highlight=je223

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=376756&highlight=je223

(I be happy to "PM" the other 4 test results not published here for this load that were obtained for this by JE223 if you wish. He does awesome work.)


2. Economize further, if need be (budgets being strained these days as they are) by going with the Winchester USA 9mm 147 gr. JHP (USA9JHP2) which an be found with a little shopping around for $16-$18 per box of 50 rounds. Cincinnati (Ohio) P.D. has issued this as a "duty load" with acceptable results for several years.

3. Shop around for the best deal on the newest "whiz-bang" design premium SD/CCW ammunition you can find (if finances permit, of course) and buy it "in bulk" to minimize the effect of shipping costs

Places to shop for/buy ammo:

www.natchezss.com

www.ammunitiontogo.com

www.cheaperthandirt.com

www.ammoman.com

www.ableammo.com

www.buyammo.com

www.sportsmansguide.com


4. Stick with what you have right now since it is most likely fully functional (if it has been stored correctly) and will most likely serve you as well as any other ammunition that you could obtain.

The decision is yours and the criteria that you apply are strictly up to you, just do some research first and try to become educated as to what is available, what works and what you like the best. All kinds of forums out there for just such a task and this one os as good as any other if you just take the time to read (sometimes with a grain of salt ) and absorb it all.

Other sites:

www.stoppingpower.net

www.ar15.com


Go! Its all you!

 

[creativetownsman]

I think the general consensus is the Federal P9HST2 standard velocity 147gr round is the leading penetrator/stopper for 9mm. It's the duty round down here for a metropolitan police force. I like the stats on it, but I just find that shooting the 124gr +P GDHP is more accurate out of my Kahr CW9 with 3.5" bbl. The HST is a bargain compared to the Speer, though.

 

[Marcus L.]

I think the general consensus is the Federal P9HST2 standard velocity 147gr round is the leading penetrator/stopper for 9mm. It's the duty round down here for a metropolitan police force. I like the stats on it, but I just find that shooting the 124gr +P GDHP is more accurate out of my Kahr CW9 with 3.5" bbl. The HST is a bargain compared to the Speer, though.

You bring up a good point. 147gr bullets are relatively long and require a faster twist rate for your pistol barrel. A faster twist rate grips the bullet better for a more consistant spin and better accuracy. Optimal twist rate for 9mm is 1 in 10. However, if you decrease twist rate the pistol has slightly less felt recoil and torque and you improve the barrel life of the pistol. So, a lot of smaller pistols use a slower twist rate to make the pistol a little more managable. For example the S&W M&P uses a 1 in 16 twist so it doesn't shoot 147gr bullets quite as accurately as lighter loads. I think S&W was not thinking too clearly when they made a full sized pistol with such a slow twist rate.

 

[gc70]

The marginal efficiency of different types of bullets in a given caliber is not huge. What bullet you shoot is far less important than how well you shoot.

 

[BlindJustice]

FWIW

My CZ 75B has a 1 in 9.7" twist rate.

I live in SE Wash. State. I haven't found a lot of Fed. HD/SD ammo on the store shelves here. I live about 30 miles from the CCI/Speer plant in Lewiston Idaho. Doesn't seem to affect the high price of Speer HD/SD in 20 rd. boxes though. I just got a couple of boxes of the Double Tap 147 gr. Speer Gold DOt JHPs @ 1,135 FPS. at $27.95 per 50 rd. box.

I also use the Win. 147 gr. JHPs for the range at $16+ per 50 for the range with some of the DT to begin and end with for a session.

Hey, it's pumpkin season, hmmm sounds like a comparison test is something to do.

Randall

 

[boomstik45]

While the 9mm goes by so many names, understand one thing: 9mm NATO ammunition is significantly hotter than regular ammunition. Federal NATO is 115 gr +p+. For some guns, this will be too much. If you happen to pick up any NATO ammo, make sure your weapon is designed to handle it.

 

[JBP55]

HST, Ranger T, GD, GS in 124/127/147. Use the one that works best in your gun.

 

[Jim Watson]

the S&W M&P uses a 1 in 16 twist so it doesn't shoot 147gr bullets quite as accurately as lighter loads. I think S&W was not thinking too clearly when they made a full sized pistol with such a slow twist rate.

There are probably other factors at work.
S&W uses an 18.75" twist in .38 Special for 158 grain bullets at black powder velocities, and you don't hear many complaints about their accuracy. Colt also uses a 16" twist for 9mm and .38 Super and they do ok with the heavier bullets. Or mine does, at any rate.

 

[Elvishead]

boomstik45

While the 9mm goes by so many names, understand one thing: 9mm NATO ammunition is significantly hotter than regular ammunition. Federal NATO is 115 gr +p+. For some guns, this will be too much. If you happen to pick up any NATO ammo, make sure your weapon is designed to handle it.

I just bought some Fiocchi 115g FMJ with the cross circle "Nato" stamping on the shell. Also has a G.F.I., a 60, and a 90 with blue lacquer sealed around the primers.

The Box's has a sticker saying 50 Cartucce Cal. 9X19 FMJ 115
+P+ COD 70999900 Lotto 4709138.

They really seem to have some fast jolting kick compared to GDHP 124g +P and Reg Fiocchi 115g, which I had arranged all in one mag.

 

[Greenman]

Been a while

Just by chance I opened "Highroads" just to see if there had been any changes and....from what I read, mostly posted 2008/2007 circa, the site appears to have "weeded out" all of the adverse comments/ comentors. Hopefully the site will continue with good information sharing so that all can benefit.....Thanks guys........

 

[KBintheSLC]

OP,

I suppose this is a matter of opinion more than anything, but I think that modern 147g ammo is a fine choice for 9mm. I generally load my 9mm's with either 124g or 147g depending on what I have on hand. Both functioned well, and both expanded nicely on impact in the rudimentary tests I conducted. I guess it depends on whether you want faster expansion and slightly less penetration (124g)... or slower expansion and slightly more penetration (147g). If you can't use +P in your gun, you may opt for some 147g JHP's just for a bit more oomph.

Again, a matter of opinion. I doubt the bad guy will know the difference.

PS... there is a reason why the author of the article link in post 1 didn't christen it with his name.