9mm Para FMJ for self defense

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riffer

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Hi

I need some help.. I'm from Switzerland and working for a private security company and carrying a pistol on duty. By Swiss law there is a ban on JHP/SP handgun ammo, every bullet which opens up in any way when hitting soft targets are no longer available. You may use them if you still have them but the company I work for restricted the handgun usage to 9mm and FMJ only :banghead: If I could i would take at least a 40 S&W or a 45 ACP, but no chance..

What would you load?:confused:

I'm tending to a light and fast shooting load around 115gr?
I also could load my own load but that isn't recommended for self defense but fmj isn't either. Thought about loading some sort of WC which would cause more damage but probably isn't to reliable in feeding... But avent got any experience with them.

There are some sort of "defense" loads availible like the Fiocci Black Mamba and the Lapua CEPP but they shouldn't expand either...

My edc for work is a sig 226 and shooting the cz shadow in ipsc... So I'm aware that shot placement is crucial and FMJ are deadly enough on the right spot but the bullet should have to transfer as much energy as possible while passing trough.

Thanks!

By the way, police forces switched shortly after the ban again to deforming bullets. They mostly carry Ruag action 4, not availbile for the public... http://www.ruag.com/en/Ammotec/Defence_and_Law_Enforcement/9x19/Deformation_ammunition
The restriction only count's for handguns, for rifles every hunting ammo is availible...
 
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I think I would just stick with a 115-grain FMJ that is proven to function reliably in my gun, and couple it with as much shot-placement training and practice as I could.

Truncated-nose ("flat-tipped") rounds are available here in other calibers, such as .380 ACP (your 9mm short) and .32ACP (your 7.62 Browning), but I've not seen them in 9x19mm. In those two calibers, they do feed pretty well in most quality guns, and are designated as FMJ because they are indeed fully jacketed.
 
Federal makes a 147gr round in 9x19, marked as either AE9FP or FMJFP. it has more of a kick than 115gr and it's a shade less accurate owing to it's flat point design. it does however make much cleaner holes in paper targets. :D I just finished going through a case. now I'm wishing I hadn't finished it all and saved some. :(
 
If you can find a flat nose FMJ that functions reliably in your pistol then that's what I suggest.
 
I normally say heavy-for-caliber, but with FMJ I'd say 115 grain rounds would be a good option.

One question: would EFMJ ammo be banned? I know they get around loopholes in some jurisdictions.
 
I would look for GECO or Dynamite Nobel 124 FMJ.
This ammunition is excellent, reliable, surefire, clean burning, and powerful
 
riffer said:
Hi

I need some help.. I'm from Switzerland and working for a private security company and carrying a pistol on duty. By Swiss law there is a ban on JHP/SP handgun ammo, every bullet which opens up in any way when hitting soft targets are no longer available. You may use them if you still have them but the company I work for restricted the handgun usage to 9mm and FMJ only :banghead: If I could i would take at least a 40 S&W or a 45 ACP, but no chance..

What would you load?:confused:

I'm tending to a light and fast shooting load around 115gr?
I also could load my own load but that isn't recommended for self defense but fmj isn't either. Thought about loading some sort of WC which would cause more damage but probably isn't to reliable in feeding... But avent got any experience with them.

There are some sort of "defense" loads availible like the Fiocci Black Mamba and the Lapua CEPP but they shouldn't expand either...

My edc for work is a sig 226 and shooting the cz shadow in ipsc... So I'm aware that shot placement is crucial and FMJ are deadly enough on the right spot but the bullet should have to transfer as much energy as possible while passing trough.

Thanks!

By the way, police forces switched shortly after the ban again to deforming bullets. They mostly carry Ruag action 4, not availbile for the public... http://www.ruag.com/en/Ammotec/Defence_and_Law_Enforcement/9x19/Deformation_ammunition
The restriction only count's for handguns, for rifles every hunting ammo is availible...
Click to expand...

If you are restricted by law to FMJs only, you can use the Schwartz bullet penetration model @ http://quantitativeammunitionselection.com/the_book/ to give you an idea as to which FMJ weight and speed will give you the least penetration if you are seeking to mitigate that aspect of performance.

For example, according to the Schwartz model-

a 9mm 115gr FMJRN @ 1100fps would produce 25.6" (65.0cm) of penetration with a total of 29.6g of soft tissue damage

a 9mm 115gr FMJRN @ 1150fps would produce 26.2" (66.6cm) of penetration with a total of 30.3g of soft tissue damage

a 9mm 115gr FMJRN @ 1200fps would produce 26.9" (68.3cm) of penetration with a total of 31.1g of soft tissue damage

a 9mm 115gr FMJRN @ 1250fps would produce 27.5" (69.8cm) of penetration with a total of 31.8g of soft tissue damage


a 9mm 124gr FMJRN @ 1120fps would produce 27.9" (70.8cm) of penetration with a total of 32.2g of soft tissue damage

a 9mm 124gr FMJRN @ 1200fps would produce 29.0" (73.6cm) of penetration with a total of 33.5g of soft tissue damage

a 9mm 124gr FMJRN @ 1250fps would produce 29.6" (75.3cm) of penetration with a total of 34.3g of soft tissue damage


a 9mm 147gr FMJFN @ 985fps would produce 31.8" (80.8cm) of penetration with a total of 35.4g of soft tissue damage


I'd go with the lightest/slowest 9mm FMJRN that you can find.
 
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no EFMJ aren't legal ether. The restriction by law is that the bullet isn't allowed to increase the diameter and has to stay in tight tolerances of the original shape. The schwartz modell sounds interesting. At the moment im carring 124gr vom Sellier Bellot or Gecko. The thought with the lighter bullets is that there might be at least a increased temporary wound cavity resulting from the higher fps.

The restriction of FMJ is from the company I work for, by law there is only the limitation of expanding bullet constructions with handguns.
I think I will have to do some ballistic testing of the Lapua CEPP on wet paper or ballistic gel to see how they perform.

"CEPP is engineered to provide maximum penetration and controlled expansion without risk of ricocheting. CEPP Extra has a pre-cut bullet nose to initiate early expansion; lead core is not visible at the bullet nose. It provides rapid expansion and excellent weight retention."

What they write would be completely against the law but it is available on the market...

I just saw that the CEPP has been tested by the fed. and has been approved for sale, but then it must have suited the law. The testing will show.

I personaly do not carre too much for the FMJ restriction of the company, it's my life and the life's of the bystanders which count. If it comes to a court case I would to be the one who is going to be blamed for my actions- placed shots. So if the CEPP would work like promoted and I can buy them at the store it would be fine for me. With 63$ for 50 rounds they are quite pricey.

http://www.lapua.com/en/products/sport-shooting/centerfire-handgun/27

I just saw that the CEPP has been tested by the fed. and has been approved for sale, but then it must have suited the law. The testing will show.
 
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riffer said:
no EFMJ aren't legal ether. The restriction by law is that the bullet isn't allowed to increase the diameter and has to stay in tight tolerances of the original shape. The schwartz modell sounds interesting. At the moment im carring 124gr vom Sellier Bellot or Gecko. The thought with the lighter bullets is that there might be at least a increased temporary wound cavity resulting from the higher fps.

The restriction of FMJ is from the company I work for, by law there is only the limitation of expanding bullet constructions with handguns.
I think I will have to do some ballistic testing of the Lapua CEPP on wet paper or ballistic gel to see how they perform.

"CEPP is engineered to provide maximum penetration and controlled expansion without risk of ricocheting. CEPP Extra has a pre-cut bullet nose to initiate early expansion; lead core is not visible at the bullet nose. It provides rapid expansion and excellent weight retention."

What they write would be completely against the law but it is available on the market...

I just saw that the CEPP has been tested by the fed. and has been approved for sale, but then it must have suited the law. The testing will show.

I personaly do not carre too much for the FMJ restriction of the company, it's my life and the life's of the bystanders which count. If it comes to a court case I would to be the one who is going to be blamed for my actions- placed shots. So if the CEPP would work like promoted and I can buy them at the store it would be fine for me. With 63$ for 50 rounds they are quite pricey.

http://www.lapua.com/en/products/sport-shooting/centerfire-handgun/27

I just saw that the CEPP has been tested by the fed. and has been approved for sale, but then it must have suited the law. The testing will show.
Click to expand...
riffer,

I am not sure that I follow you correctly.

You have said that expanding ammo is unlawful in pistols in Switzerland yet you are going to load your sidearm with the CEPP (an expanding projectile) in violation of the law?

Very confused, my friend.
 
I'm looking for the best round for defense availible on the swiss market. By law every round which isn't allowed can't be sold on the public market. Every new bullet which is introduced on the market is tested by the federal gun agency and they released the CEPP. So it's totaly legal for me to buy and shoot them.

The testing will show how the CEPP realy reacts on impact, it should keep its shape, if it doesn't they made a big mistake which is quite unlikely or Lapua is misleading with the marketing what I wouldn't expect eather.

I just found a few reviews and in most of them it seems like expected it is more a FMJ then anything else... There are two CEPP types and as far as I have seen there is only the CEPP Extra available in Switzerland. At least it might be one of the better choices, high quality flat nose ammo.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/66388235@N04/6740408603/lightbox/
http://www.tady.cz/aegis/cepp.htm
http://www.patricks-home.de/geschosse/g_3.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f97/zelle12/munition004.jpg (number 4)
 
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If you're stuck with fmj, use whatever round shoots most accurately in the pistol. Don't worry much about the minor differences between 115 and 124 gr rounds.
 
Are knives legal? You may want one for backup if they are.

If FMJ is all you're allowed I really don't think it matters much what you use. Excessive penetration is about guaranteed.

I'd recommend a variation on the typical tactics, though. I'd consider the pelvis as an alternative to COM shots. When hunters need to drop something big quickly they try to break bones and the pelvis is a large bone. FMJ are used successfully on Cape Buffalo and Elephant, so it's not like they are "less lethal".
 
Flat point solid bullets do not increase the effectiveness of the round though many imagine they will. Higher velocity of even a FMJ does increase its effectiveness so a 350 M/s load typical of Winchester US 115gr FMJ target ammo will not be as effective as a 393 M/s velocity from some of the European manufactured brands such as Fiocchi.
 
If I was restricted to FMJ I would leave the 9mm and strictly use .45. Barring that, I'd want NATO spec 124 gr 9mm.
 
If it were me, I think I'd find the fastest round I could, if I were limited to FMJ. so that'd probably be something in the 105-115 grain range I'd guess. The idea being to hopefully get some benefit from a supersonic round versus a subsonic one; the whole "shock effect" idea.

May not make any real difference but it'd make me feel a little better at least! :D
 
JMO: The NATO 124 FMJ is what I'd choose if it's available--and probably is. The 124 NATO has the speed and mass needed while not as "snappy" of a recoil as the 115gr. 9mm (9x19) pistols like 124gr bullets. The 1 in 10 twist of your Shadow's bbl will do well with that bullet if your recoil spring is at least stock weight. The SIG likes everything.
 
Another vote for NATO spec 124 ball. I have a ton of winchester's version and it's accurate and fairly clean. Never had a failure in term of running the guns either, for what that's worth.
 
Dumb question I'm sure, but what about frangible bullets that only break apart when they hit steel targets. They go through soft targets like FMJs but when they hit dense materials like concrete or steel they are supposed to break apart. I think it's Fiocchi's Sinter line. It's the lead free shooting ammo. A tad pricy but it might be your solution. Won't expand in soft targets with a 100 grain bullet doing 1300 fps, but will break apart should you hit a building or a wall that isn't just dry wall.
 
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