9mm revolver WHY?!?

[30cal_Fun]

I've been shooting with revolvers for years and some time ago I was looking at the inventory of a local gunshop when I noticed they had a Ruger SP101 in 9mm for sale and I thought to myself: why in the world would someone want a revolver in 9mm?!?
they seem to be getting more popular the past years though, so I was interrested to hear from you:

What would motivate someone to buy a revolver in 9mm?!? In stead of, lets say... .38/.357 etc.

I like to hear the pro's and con's from anyone, especialy those who own (or have shot) one.


To me it seems thats having a revolver in 9mm defeats the purpose of a revolver.
A pistol in 9mm works well because the 9mm cartridge is lite enough to get multiple rounds of in a few seconds. you sacrifice power for quantity. a pistol in .357 or even .44 would not be logical for self-defence or on-duty carry because a powerfull cartridge like that makes a pistol to bulky and heavy for proper use. (never saw a police officer carry a .44 Desert Eagle )
More powerfull cartridges like the .357 magnum requires a stronger frame like the revolver, its reliable and robust and has the power to stop an attacker with a single round. thus justifying the slower rate of fire. you sacrifice rate of fire for power.
a revolver in 9mm has neither power nor rate of fire.

I would love to here what would be your argument fore or against a revolver in 9mm,
Louis

 

[Rio Laxas]

I don't have or want one, but I can see where you might want one as a backup to a 9mm auto-loader. I could also see getting one if you didn't want to add another caliber to what you already have. Some 9mm revolvers seem to be highly sought after.

 

[Ed Harris]

Ruger 9mm revolvers were developed for the Euro police market, as they wanted a revolver for ease of training and safety reasons, but wanted to use 9mm ammo they had, instead of adding another cartridge to the supply pipeline. S&W made them too, and has sold a few here. Manurhin in France bought manufacturing rights to the Speed Six and Service Six patents and produces 9mm revolvers under licence under its own brand for law enforcement sale in the EU.

The 9mm cartridge gives up nothing in terms of velocity when fired from a revolver. The additional bullet travel and expansion ratio over the length of the cylinder makes up for any velocity loss which would ordinarily occur due to the cylinder gap. In testing I did when I worked for the company in the 1980s the velocity of typical 9mm service loads fired from a 2-3/4" revolver approximated what was normally expected firing the same ammo in an autopistol with 10cm barrel. Reloading a revolver using rimless ammo in with moon clips is faster than loose .38 or .357 rounds. Some experimental revolvers made in limited quantities for the export market would also use .38 Super, 9mm Largo or Bergman-Bayard in addition to 9mm Luger-Parabellum.

 

[rcmodel]

1. The 9mm revolver has as much or more power then the .38 Spl +P, which a lot of small revolvers are chambered for. And they don't kick as fiercely as small .357 Mags.

2. 9mm ammo is cheaper to shoot then anything else bigger then .22 RF.

3. 9mm, 10mm, and 45 ACP revolvers can accept moon-clip reloads, and are faster to reload then any other rimmed revolver caliber. They are faster to reload then when using speed-loaders.

4. Continuous fire can be maintained at almost the same rate as an auto-loader, as long as you have clipped ammo ready to load.There is also no chance of a single case getting left in the chamber, or stuck under the ejector star.

5. The short ejector stroke necessary for 9mm makes for positive ejection on short barrel revolvers with short ejector rods.

6. Cops and others stuck with a 9mm auto could have common ammo for a back-up revolver.

7. People love them, and seek them out as soon as the manufactures stop making them!
(When they are making them, they don't sell so hot.)

rc

 

[bhp9mm]

i like moon clips some people don't but u can load fast with them and the 9mm out of a revolver is more powerful then a 38special i like 9mm revolvers i have 3 sp101 speed six and 940-1

 

[Daizee]

Yeha, the 147gr subsonic 9mm's about match the 158gr .38spl+P for energy. In the lighter bullets the 9mm wins because it operates at a higher pressure. The .38spl would need more barrel to catch up, give the stndard pressure specs. Ballistically, Guns spec'd for .357 give up nothing to the 9mm, tho there is shorter ejection stroke and lower cost.

I think for a *snub*, a 9mm revolver makes as much sense as anything else, if the supply logistics work for you (recoil may be snappier than many .38spl loads due to the pressures involved). In a long barrel non-ccw gun, the 9mm is the loser except for very specific applications.

I once shot a match alongside a guy (maybe he reads this board?) who cut down .38spl cases to 9mm capacity and loaded jacketed bullets into them. The revolver was moon-clipped .357, so he had a very fast load/unload cycle with no wasted powder operating at .357/9mm pressures. Of course that gun had a 6" barrel and a holo sight for steel plate competition, which makes it pretty specialized. His empties looked really goofy, but he and his rig sure did perform.

-Daizee

 

[RatDrall]

High pressure makes better velocity from a small barrel.

9mm backup gun goes well with a 9mm sidearm. It also goes well with a 9mm carbine.

 

[otcconan]

I see the value if you already have other pistols in 9mm and want to cut down on ammo costs.

 

[KBintheSLC]

I personally don't care for revo's chambered in auto format. I like using rimmed cartridges as to avoid moon clips. However, I assume that some folks might like it in order to consolidate their ammo into the fewest possible calibers.

 

[gwnorth]

NO handgun round has "the power to stop an attacker with a single round" unless you hit something vital. I know it gets said enough to make you sick hearing it, but shot placement is not merely important, it is crucial. Punch a .32 or .380 round through someone's heart or eye and they are just as dead as if you used a 9mm, .38, .357, .40, .45 - whatever. But even the big bore handgun rounds can be highly ineffectual if all you hit is fleshy muscle and extremities.

And auto-loader rimless rounds have been popular in revolvers for awhile - 9mm, .45acp in particular. Why? Why ask why about any calibre and handgun type? There's a market for it, so the gun makers fill the niche.

 

[Daizee]

It's my understanding that a modern moon-clip treatment for rimmed cartridges will let you use loose, speedloaders, or moon clips. Sounds ideal to me.

-Daizee

 

[rcmodel]

Except that moon clips for rimmed cartridges are just slightly thicker then tin-foil to fit the tiny grooves under the rim, and get damaged / bent easily.

And long revolver cartridges flop around in the thin clips worse then short auto-pistol calibers in thicker clips, and are harder to load real fast.

rc

 

[30cal_Fun]

Thanks for all the replies!
After reading all this, it doesn't make so little sense anymore

Being able to use the same ammo for your semi-auto pistol and your (back-up) revolver and the reload time being very small when using moon-clips, make for good options when considering a 9mm revolver. Be it for plinking, target shooting, back-up, or self-defence.

I did know about slow and fast burning powders and opperating pressures, but I didn't know that a 9mm revolver would actually have more energy than a .38special because of the higher pressure, learned another thing here today. I suppose the 9mm is loaded with a different powder then?
I looked up some reloading data for the 9mm and the .38special, it makes a good difference.

I have no real experience with moon-clips, but from what I've heard about then here; although it seems hard to load them up, when you have, it would definately cut down on the reloading time, gaining precious time.

gwnorth: don't worry, it cannot be said enough I totaly agree with you, If you can hit where it matters even a .22lr would do. I meant knock-down power in a way of all other factors being equal.

let me get this straight: low recoil, more energy than an average .38special, cost efficient ammunition, wide choise of loads, interchangebility, short cartridge (ejection) and (with moon-clips) fast reload time. A 9mm revolver actually seems quite a good choise for a handgun to me now.

Thanks for all the opinions! Take care,

Louis

 

[Shear_stress]

If you look at factory muzzle energy figures, the 9mm beats the .38 Special by a considerable margin in almost every case (not just on average) and comes within spitting distance of the .357 when the latter is fired from a short barrel. As to whether or not that translates into superior terminal ballistics for the 9mm compared to the .38, I have no idea.

Still, I believe that the 9mm revolver is a great idea, at least in theory. A fair amount of power in a small, very shootable, quickly reloadable package.

 

[dom1104]

funny how the 9mm is looked down on in an auto-pistol, but is somehow a super cartridge in the revolver world...

very odd.

 

[rcmodel]

I suppose the 9mm is loaded with a different powder then?

Not necessarly different powder, but SAAMI spec on the 9mm is 35,000 PSI and 38,500 for +P loads.

The .38 Spl is held to 17,000 & 18,500 in +P due to there being so many 100+ year old guns chambered for it still in use.

If the .38 Spl were introduced today as a new cartridge, and only modern strong guns where ever made for it, then it could be loaded to the same 35,000 pressure as the .357 Magnum or 9mm in a shorter case.

The .38 Spl started out as a black powder cartridge, and is restricted to similiar power levels today by the old guns still floating around in that caliber.

The 9mm Luger started out as a smokeless powder round, and the guns & ammo for it have always been designed for high pressure.

BTW: Some years ago, Federal introduced the 9mm Federal cartridge.
It was in effect a 9mm Luger cartridge with a rimmed case for revolver use.
It was a total flop and quickly was gone from the market.

rc

 

[19-3Ben]

It was a total flop and quickly was gone from the market.

Pity about that. I imagine that a S&W 642 (or other jframe) with the much shorter cylinder necessary to accommodate a 19mm long cartridge would be even easier to conceal than the 642 with the longer cylinder needed for a 39mm long .38spl.

You'd make the cyinder window shorter and essentially have a gun that is more powerful than the .38, but 3/4" shorter, and correspondingly lighter (because less metal needed).

 

[Daizee]

I suppose the 9mm is loaded with a different powder then?

Not necessarly different powder, but SAAMI spec on the 9mm is 35,000 PSI and 38,500 for +P loads.

Exactly. In fact, often the 9mm and .38spl can use not only the same powder, but the same amount! The difference is that the 9mm bullet is seated much closer to the powder, drastically reducing the case volume and boosting pressures. You could achieve the same result by deep-seating a .38spl bullet, but DON'T TRY IT (disclaimer).

The 9mm is more efficient powder-wise at the expense of higher pressure.

The energy numbers for 9mm's are deceiving without considering barrel length and operating ranges. It doesn't really make a lot of sense to use a .357 to drive a 115gr bullet when you can push a 140-160gr bullet to similar speeds instead. The 9mm may look good in the numbers, but the .357 give you more latitude in the trade-offs of penetration vs. expansion.

The 147gr 9mm may seldom top 1050-1100fps, but in a .357 you can push the same bullet to 1400fps in a 6" gun or 2000fps in a carbine. The 9mm has a limited top velocity due to the limited powder volume. 9mm makes a lot of sense in a short gun because of its fast powder and pressure combo. Note that high pressures tend to provide a snappier recoil impulse. The .45acp operates with similar powders and only maybe 20% more powder, but is more of a shove at ~14-17kpsi (or is that cup).

-Daizee

 

[30cal_Fun]

Thanks for the info rcmodel and daizee!
wasn't thinking about pressure limmits, but yes, the .38 could have more potential if it wouldn't have a PSI limmit.
I am surprised about 9mm revolvers being so much more common than I thought. but then again, when it comes to firearms, there's isn't a lot that hasn't allready been experimented with in some way even saw a semi-auto revolver a few days ago
I am sticking with the .357 though

 

[Oyeboten]

I like the idea of Full Moon 'clips' and erstwhile Autoloading Cartridges for Revolvers.

S&W should have introduced a full Moon Clip 9mm 'M&P' or even a 5 shot 9mm Safety-Hammerless Revolver a hundred years ago or more...and ditto for .38 ACP.


I don't like the hoaky extraction of the one they finally did come out with 70 or 80 years late for their 9mm one.

9mm is nice and peppy for shorter Barrels, and way peppy for longer Barrels...a win-win, far as light Bullets go.

 

[tekarra]

I have a number of S&W 547s, a 940 and several Ruger Sixes in 9mm. Why? When I bought my first 547 I had access to cheap surplus ammo. The other revolvers just kind of followed on over the years. I like the 9mm in a revolver and would like to see them come back as I prefer the 9mm to .38 spl. No justification, just my preference.

 

[Brian Williams]

I had a S&W 940 and it was a great gun and really packed a punch. It fit between a 38 and a 357. I sold it to fund a 642 and a 940 cylinder. I purchased a 642 and put the 940 cylinder into it and it worked very well, It kicked like a mule. I then sold the 940 and purchased a new cylinder from S&W. I had the 940 cylinder fitted by Mark Hartshorne from Pinnacle High Performance. I have also placed the 940 cylinder in my 60-4 and it times ok and works very well. I really like the 642 and the 940 cylinder combination, it makes a great carry gun. I reload my 9mms to a light load that does not cycle my glock 19 and use them in my 942. I carry some 147 gr JHP for SD and shoot a cylinder full every so often just so I know where they hit regards to POA. I would love to have a 3" Ruger SP-101 to be able to use full house 9mms.

 

[BCRider]

There's another important reason why a 9mm revolver would make a lot of sense over a .38. Size and weight. The shorter overall cartridge length of the 9mm would allow the cylinder and frame to be that much shorter. This would result in significant weight saving without the need to go for aluminium alloys. And the saved length could either be put back into the barrel to improve the ballistics or it could make for a very short and compact gun that is more easily hidden.

And the space saving carries over to the ammo. Not only is the ammo more compact but when in moon clips instead of speed loaders the savings in room and complexity compared to speed loaders is even further enhanced.

All this should have the self defense fans in the US clamoring for a better 9mm solution. Instead it seems to be passed over.

Up this way where I'm not allowed to carry for defense it's all about fun at the range for practice and competition. I'd LOVE to have a moon clip capable 9mm revolver to use in IPSC or IDPA.

I know it's just my opinion but I can't help thinking that a 9mm revolver would be more popular if they would just give up on the idea of the fragile and complex whiskers or other tricks to let them work with loose cartridges. Make it a moon clip only gun in recognition that most would want to use it for competition or self defense anyway. For those that insist on loose cartridges it's not like the .38 and .357 isn't a great option.

 

[Daizee]

There's another important reason why a 9mm revolver would make a lot of sense over a .38. Size and weight. The shorter overall cartridge length of the 9mm would allow the cylinder and frame to be that much shorter

It sure would. But the expense of manufacturing a an entire additional unique frame size would put the price of the gun way out of reach. compared to the standard frame sizes.

-Daizee

 

[Australian Shooter]

What would motivate someone to buy a revolver in 9mm?

Someone who lives in Australia, where any handgun above 9mm calibre is almost impossible to get (unless you shoot Single Action or Handgun Metallic Silhouette, where you can get special approvals from the government).