9mm sub guns... Why??

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Just bought a Ruger carbine----liked it so much I bought another one a week later----first gun in a long time to put a flat out stupid grin on my face. One is converted for Glock mags while I'll leave the other one alone since I now have 5 SR9 17-rounders.

First gun has a sub 10000 serial number while the second one has nearly a 100k number-----I take that to mean they are making and selling a lot of these in just one years time since introduction.

They also fit nicely into the Bulldog take down cases that I originally bought for my AR's---very discreet in blue instead of black coloring---the neighbors have no idea what I'm carrying to the truck.

 

[Texas10mm]

Those Ruger PCCs are awesome aren't they? I picked mine up back in June and it's gone on every range trip with me. People are always asking to shoot it.

 

[bluecollar]

Let's please not confuse the term "sub gun" with pistol caliber carbines. The anti 2a people will have a hay day with our own misuse of the terminology and use it against us. God knows they don't need our help.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

The "Why" behind 9mm sub guns is they're cheap. The British Sten is a prime example -- they could be churned out in large numbers for an army that was lacking in weapons.

Effectiveness is another matter. I had two sub guns in Viet Nam, an M1 Thompson and an M3 "grease gun." I played with them, but never carried them in the field, and basically only used them as something to carry in the jeep.

 

[drobs]

I had a 16 inch barrel semi-auto Vector Uzi right when the AW Ban ended. Was a ton of fun and pretty accurate at pistol ranges. An acquaintance of mine had to have it and offered me $1000 for it. I had bought it for $700 NIB. Sold!

 

[FL-NC]

The "Why" behind 9mm sub guns is they're cheap. The British Sten is a prime example -- they could be churned out in large numbers for an army that was lacking in weapons.

Effectiveness is another matter. I had two sub guns in Viet Nam, an M1 Thompson and an M3 "grease gun." I played with them, but never carried them in the field, and basically only used them as something to carry in the jeep.

Correction- they WERE cheap. The SMGs from the era you are referring were all fired from the open bolt, and were mostly of simplified construction (M45 Swede, Danish M50, MP40, M3/M3A1, Beretta M12, PPSH/PPS, STEN/ Sterling, and so on). Even the MAC series. The "flagship" of SMGs in performance back then and for a good while after was the Uzi. Currently manufactured SMG's in common use outside of the 3rd world are anything but cheap and simplified, at least as compared to the models from your era: MP5 (which is becoming or has become obsolete in many places) UMP, FNP90, Colt AR type designs, HK MP7, and that new contraption Sig came out with recently. They have also evolved into a more specialized role. I was the primary SMG instructor at a Special Warfare course, so I had the opportunity to get a lot of hands-on time with just about everything I listed above, as well as operationally. The "common ground" that these modern designs have vs the SMGs from the "days of yore" is the limitations of the cartridges used when compared to rounds like the 5.56 ina carbine- hence the reason that the SMG has moved mostly into a "niche" role.

 

[donandmax]

I have a CZ scorpion EVO and it is a fun gun at the range.

View attachment 825267
Take some of these and see how far downrange you can get it in thirty seconds. A variant is to start at 25 yards and race to 50.

I have a friend who is faster than I am at ths; but I am catching up. It was amazing the difference a red-dot sight made to this game.

Not allowed at my gun range.

 

[giggitygiggity]

At the top of my list is the CZ Scorpion and B&T GHM and Zenith MP5 clones. Once a manufacturer rolls out a 10mm non-AR pistol handgun along similar design lines of the aforementioned guns that can be braced or SBR’d (with a folding/collapsible stock/brace), I suspect they’ll get lots of business. Pistol caliber ARs and the Kriss just aren’t super aesthetically pleasing to me. Plus, most pistol caliber ARs have buffer tubes protruding that limit the compactness. Just my personal preference.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Correction- they WERE cheap. The SMGs from the era you are referring were all fired from the open bolt, and were mostly of simplified construction (M45 Swede, Danish M50, MP40, M3/M3A1, Beretta M12, PPSH/PPS, STEN/ Sterling, and so on). Even the MAC series. The "flagship" of SMGs in performance back then and for a good while after was the Uzi. Currently manufactured SMG's in common use outside of the 3rd world are anything but cheap and simplified, at least as compared to the models from your era: MP5 (which is becoming or has become obsolete in many places) UMP, FNP90, Colt AR type designs, HK MP7, and that new contraption Sig came out with recently. They have also evolved into a more specialized role. I was the primary SMG instructor at a Special Warfare course, so I had the opportunity to get a lot of hands-on time with just about everything I listed above, as well as operationally. The "common ground" that these modern designs have vs the SMGs from the "days of yore" is the limitations of the cartridges used when compared to rounds like the 5.56 ina carbine- hence the reason that the SMG has moved mostly into a "niche" role.

Which was my original point. And the irony is -- despite becoming more expensive and sophisticated, they still shoot a pistol cartridge.

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I bought a Sig MPX and picked it up and shot it today. Before I shot it, I bought it to have a home defense gun that I could gradually build how I liked.

After I shot it, I realized its true purpose is to be the most fun gun I have to shoot.

 

[Trey Veston]

Compare an AR pistol that shoots a 5.56 out of a 7.5" barrel and an AR pistol that shoots a 9mm out of a 7.5" barrel...

The 5.56 is down to around 700ft lbs and the 9mm is up around 500.

The 5.56 is a terrible cartridge for a pistol with an amazing amount of muzzleblast and much energy and velocity lost.

 

[Trey Veston]

Once a manufacturer rolls out a 10mm non-AR pistol handgun along similar design lines of the aforementioned guns that can be braced or SBR’d (with a folding/collapsible stock/brace), I suspect they’ll get lots of business. Pistol caliber ARs and the Kriss just aren’t super aesthetically pleasing to me. Plus, most pistol caliber ARs have buffer tubes protruding that limit the compactness. Just my personal preference.

Extar already has 10mm versions in the field and should be shipping to customers soon...

 

[mavracer]

Compare an AR pistol that shoots a 5.56 out of a 7.5" barrel and an AR pistol that shoots a 9mm out of a 7.5" barrel...

The 5.56 is down to around 700ft lbs and the 9mm is up around 500.

The 5.56 is a terrible cartridge for a pistol with an amazing amount of muzzleblast and much energy and velocity lost.

That's why I sold my 5.56 pistol AR and built another 300 Blackout, although a 10mm Extar would be very interesting. Wish the 9 would take something other than Glock mags.

 

[ROCK6]

I'm pretty sure the OP meant several of the 9mm "pistols" with arm braces, and there are a lot of them now. I don't see the arm brace going anywhere as it was designed for handicapped shooters; banning them could be seen as discrimination (we'll see). Anyways, the cat is out of the bag and the industry is taking full advantage...and I feel obligated to support them

I started with some PCCs, Kel-Tech SUB2K, a couple lever carbines, UZI carbine (that I plan to SBR for historical purposes), and an older AR 9mm that takes sten magazines (which is a heavy brute). Along came the arm-brace pistols, and I've expanded my investment. While I've always seen them as capable defensive guns within their limitations, these smaller PCC "pistols" have created a very perfect niche. CZ, Sig MPX-K, B&T GHM9, CMMG Banshee...all 9mm, all very reliable, all very accurate within 100 meters, very handy as home defense options, and excellent suppressor hosts.

Outside of concealability (as a "pistol"), they are far superior to a handgun for self-defense. A sling makes them handier, a better platform for optics, a much more stable platform for more accurate and faster follow-up shots...especially well beyond typical pistol distances...so many more advantages than a regular pistol by the bedside, there is simply no comparison. However, they are niche guns. They don't replace a pistol for concealed carry or as a backup sidearm, and they don't replace a rifle-caliber carbine (or pistol?) for superior ballistics, better penetration, effective range, and terminal performance. Of course I have a few of these pseudo-SBR "pistols" as well

For those that actually train, swap out your AR15 carbine for a CZ Scorpion, or MPX, etc., for any courses that are setup inside 100 meters. They are amazingly intuitive, very fast, often more compact and lighter, and just as accurate. Most critics focus on the ballistics, which I won't argue when compared to rifle-calibers; however, those same critics often carry a 9mm CCW. Again, outside of concealability, these 9mm braced-pistols are far superior for home-defense or any situations inside the average combat engagement distance of 100 meters.

Of course there are some detractors. Most are pretty expensive (although some are coming in at very reasonable price points), we are at the whims of the BATFE with the use of arm braces and the various, often-changing definitions, and you're still shooting a handgun round, albeit more on board than most handguns. Oh, and their like Doritos, you can rarely just stop at one

ROCK6

 

[Mosin Bubba]

Correction- they WERE cheap. The SMGs from the era you are referring were all fired from the open bolt, and were mostly of simplified construction (M45 Swede, Danish M50, MP40, M3/M3A1, Beretta M12, PPSH/PPS, STEN/ Sterling, and so on). Even the MAC series. The "flagship" of SMGs in performance back then and for a good while after was the Uzi. Currently manufactured SMG's in common use outside of the 3rd world are anything but cheap and simplified, at least as compared to the models from your era: MP5 (which is becoming or has become obsolete in many places) UMP, FNP90, Colt AR type designs, HK MP7, and that new contraption Sig came out with recently. They have also evolved into a more specialized role. I was the primary SMG instructor at a Special Warfare course, so I had the opportunity to get a lot of hands-on time with just about everything I listed above, as well as operationally. The "common ground" that these modern designs have vs the SMGs from the "days of yore" is the limitations of the cartridges used when compared to rounds like the 5.56 ina carbine- hence the reason that the SMG has moved mostly into a "niche" role.

I'm curious to know: what is so good about the Uzi? Maybe it's because I've watched too many 80s action movies, but I always figured they were a crude spray-n-pray type gun whose main benefit was just being compact; I wouldn't have guessed they'd be the best in anything.

 

[FL-NC]

I'm curious to know: what is so good about the Uzi? Maybe it's because I've watched too many 80s action movies, but I always figured they were a crude spray-n-pray type gun whose main benefit was just being compact; I wouldn't have guessed they'd be the best in anything.

There were a few things that made the Uzi popular (outside of its popularity). It is compact, it is very user-friendly in regards to the overall design and fire control features, and reliable (designed by the Israelis to work in a desert environment). The stock is simple to quickly deploy from the stowed to fully opened position, while keeping the firing hand in place. It was a more economic choice in comparison to the superior MP5, and was easier to acquire for many users from a marketing standpoint. The Uzi is a drop-safe design, and is useful in the semi auto mode as well as being fairly controllable in the full auto mode for a trained user. In these senses, the Uzi was and is a superior SMG when compared to most other designs.

 

[kBob]

Golly Gee I forgot another early rifle caliber (.223) pistol I shot a bit and which Oddly I sort of liked

Bushmaster ARM gun.

There was a thing! Basically it was the action of a Bushmaster rifle (though the pistol may have come first) and that bears no resemblance to the Bushmaster ARs most of you are familure with. The rifle did not have a good rep. Had an AK-ish gas system for one thing.The pistol had a pistol grip forward of the magazine in a sort of Bull pup manner. The gun was gripped by the pistol grip and the receiver roatated to one side or the other to lay along your forearm and be pressed there by the non firing hand. It was very handy with 20 round AR mags and not un usable with 30s and a bud told me they worked just fine with various drums. The Korean War Vet that owned the thing claimed to have fired it one handed while driving his motor bike when he was about 50 or so.

A friend drew up some thing like Josh Randall (Steve McQueen), bounty hunter's rig for his Model 92 Mare's Leg in conjunction with a shoulder strap, but it never got built. I actually though it might make a usable PDW.....or at least sniper bait.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

One thing about the Uzi was that it had considerable forward bolt over hang like the CZ SMGs. the result was they did not nose dive as much as the more traditional SMGs where all the bolt mass was behind the chamber at firing. It was as a result easier to shoot at some range than some of the classics. I always thought it funny that in the 1970's they were the Standard West German SMG I got to say I liked the 24 round magazine better than the 32 for carrying. You could pinch yourself with the stocks folding them back up and some Germans told me the stocks could get awfully cold. The Germans actually had a Blank Firing Device for them and used a green plastic blank in training that seemed to produce a higher rate of fire. They also took basically a Mauser 98 Bayonet if you felt the need for one and there was an accessory spotlight that fit the bayonet lug as well, so don't think lights on guns are as new as all that kiddies. The fixed wooden stock models lost all the ease of carry factors but did provide a better stock. I think all the original Chinese made Semi auto 16 inch guns had the wood stock when imported. An amazing number of the actual UZI carbines got papered and their barrels wacked down to SMG length and bolts and trigger groups modified to make them Transferrable SMGs back be fore all us Firearms Owners got Protected in 1986.

-kBob

 

[kBob]

FL-NC,

Back in the early 1990's I helped in a class for Florida Reserve SF troops on small arms. A USAF reservist that was a dealer and Manufacturer and I had been to high school with one of the B team level staffers and he set the thing up at Camp Blanding. We had a host of things there including an Uzi and MP5 and others of that time period. You know what every one of those guys just had to play with? All that neat stuff there and it seemed I spent more time demonstrating and taking down the STEN Mark II than everything else combined!

To many British war movies I guess.

-kBob