9MM XTreme 124 and W231

[Buzznrose]

I’m having a hard time reconciling what’s going on.

Disclaimer up front, I am used to shooting FMJ 115gr factory ammo from various manufacturers, including Greco, Magtec, Speer, PPU, S&B, Federal, etc., bought when on sale.

Just getting back into reloading. I’m reloading on a Dillon 550C and had a friend who has one and reloaded for years help get me started. I weigh every 8-10th charge and spot check about the same for COAL when I reload.

I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149.

Using the Hodgdon data for Berry 124 gr bullets, the range is 3.9-4.0



Brass is mixed but all factory ammo cases on their first reload…I know this because it’s my brass.

These loads seem very hot. I don’t have a chronograph to check actual velocity, but compared to factory ammo, it’s zesty!

What tells me it’s hot?

1. Cases are sailing 6-8 feet during ejection vs 1-2 ft from factory ammo.

2. Steel targets on our private range are swinging much more like as if they are hit by my .45 (230 FMJ factory) compared to factory 115 gr 9MM

I’m shooting with my Glock 19.

Is it possible Olin loaded the wrong powder In the jar, or am I so accustomed to weak ammo that I just don’t know better…


I’m thinking hard about dropping down to 3.5 grains of powder and working up to 3.8 grains to see what feels good, but as this is way below the minimum range for the bullets, will I have issues?

Thanks for any advice.

 

[buba68]

I load Berry's 124gr RN plated bullets using HP 38/W231 with 4 to 4.5 grains and they run great in my G19. I haven't run factory ammo for so long I don't know how my handloads compare to the factory stuff. 4.5 is a little snappy but not bad. I would not go below recommended minimum loads. without a chronograph it is hard to compare reloads to factory loads.

 

[1KPerDay]

How are you weighing your charges? And are you SURE you're measuring 1.140 and not 1.014 or something? Though that would still likely be fine.

 

[joneb]

Brass is mixed but all factory ammo cases on their first reload

In my experience mixed brass will cause more trouble than its worth. If you are after consistent reloads you will need to make the components the same.

 

[Milt1]

If what you state about your reloads is accurate, you're well within safe loads. I'd double check everything and if you come to the same data then not to worry.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149.
...These loads seem very hot. I don’t have a chronograph to check actual velocity, but compared to factory ammo, it’s zesty!
...or am I so accustomed to weak ammo that I just don’t know better…

It's either you or your scale is a bit off. I'd start off checking your scale with some check weights

A pretty common load is 4.5 grs of W231/HP-38 under a 125 gr bullet, loaded to 1.140" OAL. I attended a class and shot 1200 rounds loaded like that through a G34 without issue or feeling any excessive recoil. 4.3 grs pushing a 125 gr bullet is a fairly common competition load.

1. Cases are sailing 6-8 feet during ejection vs 1-2 ft from factory ammo.

Your factory ammo sounds a bit light also. Having cases eject 6-8' isn't excessive

 

[lordpaxman]

Just getting back into reloading. I’m reloading on a Dillon 550C and had a friend who has one and reloaded for years help get me started. I weigh every 8-10th charge and spot check about the same for COAL when I reload.

I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149.

Using the Hodgdon data for Berry 124 gr bullets, the range is 3.9-4.0

When I develop test loads, I weigh every charge, that way you know what’s in the case. As mentioned before, is your scale calibrated correctly and a test weight checked? Do you use a beam or digital? I don’t want to ignite the beam vs digital wars, personally I use a digital but have check weights to verify throws.
Measure your bullet’s diameter, just to verify it’s what you think.
Check for setback, either using the gun or the thunk test on the bench.
Do the spent cases have any pressure signs? Typically you won’t see any until you’re way over pressure, but if there are signs then you want to stop.
On those rare occasions I use factory 115gr ammo, I don’t find it to be “light” in any of my 9’s. A chrono would tell a lot here. Good luck.

 

[JJFitch]

"I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149."

Your load is just fine. Why not 4.0 grains and 1.15 COL? you're driving yourself crazy!

You can verify you scale calibration by weighing a new penny. Google: "New penny weight"!

Smiles,

 

[rfwobbly]

Just getting back into reloading. I’m reloading on a Dillon 550C and had a friend who has one and reloaded for years help get me started. I weigh every 8-10th charge and spot check about the same for COAL when I reload.

I work with a lot of novice reloaders, and this is a recurring issue in the ones I've counseled.

► ► Stopping to check your powder loads is NOT a safe practice, especially when you use a Dillon powder measure. This practice doesn't prevent double loads, it actually INVITES them !! And that is what I truly believe is happening to you.

• If you really want to know (and trust) what your Dillon powder measure is doing, then fill the hopper with powder and drop 50 loads into a fired case. After each "drop", weigh the power. Then enter the weight into an Excel spread sheet. At the end of 50 "drops", have Excel plot the results. What you'll see is that the only variation is actually in the first 8-10 drops, before the powder settles down.

• The reason there is no variation after the first 8-10 "drops" is because of the unique Dillon safety cam. This device shakes the power measure after each drop, which insures a consistent density of the powder inside the hopper. No other powder measure does this.

• The shaking that the safety cam induces, basically eliminates the chances of a double load... until you stop the process and introduce one.

So basically, you've gotten some very BAD advice based on your specific equipment. You've paid for high-end, feature-rich equipment, and then you, by your process, are defeating the very same safety features.

Here's what your revised process should look like...
1. Make your initial OAL setting.
2. Use the first 10 powder drops to dial-in your powder measure. All these 'drops' go back into the powder hopper.
3. Check the first 2 or 3 rounds to fall into the finished bin for OAL
4. After that, do not stop. Use a continuous loading process out until you reach your goal. You can load up to 1000 rounds without the adjustments changing.

Hope this helps your process, level of understanding and your safety.

 

[9mmepiphany]

This device shakes the power measure after each drop, which insures a consistent density of the powder inside the hopper. No other powder measure does this.

You don't consider the powder insert slamming into the powder measure body of the Hornady, RCBS, and Mark 7 powder measures enough impact/force to accomplish the same thing?

The Lyman 55 powder measure did the same thing with a built-in hammer/knocker. You manually operated it along with the handle to dispense powder

 

[Buzznrose]

How are you weighing your charges? And are you SURE you're measuring 1.140 and not 1.014 or something? Though that would still likely be fine.

I weigh the charge by removing the pin and taking the shell from die and weighing the powder. I check and zero my digital scale every time I set it up.

Yes, I am quite sure on the COAL numbers. But good point. Thanks!

 

[Buzznrose]

In my experience mixed brass will cause more trouble than its worth. If you are after consistent reloads you will need to make the components the same.

Thanks. Understood. But just range fodder and while perceived to be hot, that are pretty consistent and I can hold a good group, so plenty accurate for my needs.

 

[Buzznrose]

If what you state about your reloads is accurate, you're well within safe loads. I'd double check everything and if you come to the same data then not to worry.

Thanks. Appreciate the input!

 

[Buzznrose]

It's either you or your scale is a bit off. I'd start off checking your scale with some check weights

A pretty common load is 4.5 grs of W231/HP-38 under a 125 gr bullet, loaded to 1.140" OAL. I attended a class and shot 1200 rounds loaded like that through a G34 without issue or feeling any excessive recoil. 4.3 grs pushing a 125 gr bullet is a fairly common competition load.


Your factory ammo sounds a bit light also. Having cases eject 6-8' isn't excessive

This is the digital scale I use:

https://www.scheels.com/p/hornady-g3-1500-electronic-powder-scale/09025550104.html

Not fancy but I calibrate prior to every reloading session.

Factory ammo from my G19-5 ejects 2-3 ft from where I stand. These reloads land 8-9” away, same gun. Maybe I’m used to whimpy loads.

 

[Buzznrose]

When I develop test loads, I weigh every charge, that way you know what’s in the case. As mentioned before, is your scale calibrated correctly and a test weight checked? Do you use a beam or digital? I don’t want to ignite the beam vs digital wars, personally I use a digital but have check weights to verify throws.
Measure your bullet’s diameter, just to verify it’s what you think.
Check for setback, either using the gun or the thunk test on the bench.
Do the spent cases have any pressure signs? Typically you won’t see any until you’re way over pressure, but if there are signs then you want to stop.
On those rare occasions I use factory 115gr ammo, I don’t find it to be “light” in any of my 9’s. A chrono would tell a lot here. Good luck.

Thanks! Agree, a chrono will help and will be a purchase soon.

 

[Buzznrose]

"I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149."

Your load is just fine. Why not 4.0 grains and 1.15 COL? you're driving yourself crazy!

You can verify you scale calibration by weighing a new penny. Google: "New penny weight"!

Smiles,

Thanks! Actually, I’m not trying to be that specific.

I was striving for 4.0 but got to 3.95 consistently and called it good. Same with 1.15 and ended up with 1.149.

I’ll check out the penny thing.

 

[Buzznrose]

I work with a lot of novice reloaders, and this is a recurring issue in the ones I've counseled.

► ► Stopping to check your powder loads is NOT a safe practice, especially when you use a Dillon powder measure. This practice doesn't prevent double loads, it actually INVITES them !! And that is what I truly believe is happening to you.

• If you really want to know (and trust) what your Dillon powder measure is doing, then fill the hopper with powder and drop 50 loads into a fired case. After each "drop", weigh the power. Then enter the weight into an Excel spread sheet. At the end of 50 "drops", have Excel plot the results. What you'll see is that the only variation is actually in the first 8-10 drops, before the powder settles down.

• The reason there is no variation after the first 8-10 "drops" is because of the unique Dillon safety cam. This device shakes the power measure after each drop, which insures a consistent density of the powder inside the hopper. No other powder measure does this.

• The shaking that the safety cam induces, basically eliminates the chances of a double load... until you stop the process and introduce one.

So basically, you've gotten some very BAD advice based on your specific equipment. You've paid for high-end, feature-rich equipment, and then you, by your process, are defeating the very same safety features.

Here's what your revised process should look like...
1. Make your initial OAL setting.
2. Use the first 10 powder drops to dial-in your powder measure. All these 'drops' go back into the powder hopper.
3. Check the first 2 or 3 rounds to fall into the finished bin for OAL
4. After that, do not stop. Use a continuous loading process out until you reach your goal. You can load up to 1000 rounds without the adjustments changing.

Hope this helps your process, level of understanding and your safety.

Thanks for taking the time to reply.

I had to read this a few times because the first time I read it, I felt like I was being spoken to like I’m 12 years old. But I’ll go with that is just my misperception.

I did not double charge any rounds. Every shell I pulled to check the powder was simply moved back to the powder station and the powder checked returned to the bin, not the shell.

And while this might happen in a rifle case, I have a hard time seeing a double charge happening in a 9MM shell.

But I will definitely look into the advice you provided. Thank you for posting it.

 

[1KPerDay]

I weigh the charge by removing the pin and taking the shell from die and weighing the powder. I check and zero my digital scale every time I set it up.

Yes, I am quite sure on the COAL numbers. But good point. Thanks!

It was the scale that I was primarily curious about. What digital scale? Cheap ones can be worthless, particularly for small weights like pistol loads. Have you confirmed with check weights?

 

[1KPerDay]

This is the digital scale I use:

https://www.scheels.com/p/hornady-g3-1500-electronic-powder-scale/09025550104.html

Not fancy but I calibrate prior to every reloading session.

.

I would get a balance scale to confirm. I have two cheaper digital scales and they proved to be so inconsistent that I never use them.

 

[mrawesome22-250]

I load my practice 9x19 to the same velocity as my self defense ammo. My buddy shot some of my ammo last summer. After 3 rounds he stopped and yelled out "Man, these are really hot aren't they?" Nope. He's just so use to that ultra wimpy store bought stuff that they seem hot.

I think you are dead on with your assessment of being use to weak factory stuff.

 

[Buzznrose]

It was the scale that I was primarily curious about. What digital scale? Cheap ones can be worthless, particularly for small weights like pistol loads. Have you confirmed with check weights?

I use the check weight that came with it every time I use it, and zero it to the little metal cup that came with it. Goes back to zero every time.
I am going to use the new penny next.

 

[rfwobbly]

I use the check weight that came with it every time I use it, and zero it to the little metal cup that came with it. Goes back to zero every time. I am going to use the new penny next.

► And what weight is this "check weight"?

A typical 10gram check weight weighs 154grains. That's not even remotely in your loading range. The only check weight you should be using on a 3.9 to 4.0grain load is a 5.0grain check weight. Why? Because a digital scale has SO MANY failure modes, that you must check the validity of your powder drops with a check weight in that weight range.

Here's a cartoon to help describe what's going on. The scale in question is perfectly "zeroed" at 20grams, but the scale is reading optimistically in the lower ranges due to thermal drafts and reading below actual in the upper ranges due to friction issues...

 

[8Ball_99]

It is most likely your scale is off. I use win 231 all the time. I load 124gr to 4.4gr. At 4.4 I wouldn't consider them hot rounds really. They are full power. AT 3.9 gr with a 124gr bullet that would be a light plinking load. That's basically the starting load. Since that feels noticeably hot compared to your factory ammo. With out a chrono it's hard to tell where you are at. It's a pretty good bet something is off. If you only have the one scale and that's all your going by I'd 100% start there. Buy a beam scale and confirm your powder weight. They are cheap and you should have one on hand to confirm stuff when in doubt. I use a digital scale on my RCBS charge master 99% of the time, but I have a beam scale also. Every so often I'll pull the beam scale out and confirm the weight I'm getting from my digital scale. Especially if the FPS is higher then I expected.

I also agree that once everything is right you can trust your Dillon. Once mine is set and I confirm the charge I don't weigh every few cases. I'll load hundreds with out checking it. Some powders can be a head ache and don't meter well. For those I use the charge master for everyone. But win 231 meters great. It's one of the main reasons I use it. I can swap tool heads and even then the first charge, if it's off any will only be off by .1. I normally toss the first couple of charges back in to the hopper after changing tool heads. Then weigh one and it's off to the races.

 

[Rule3]

I’m having a hard time reconciling what’s going on.

Disclaimer up front, I am used to shooting FMJ 115gr factory ammo from various manufacturers, including Greco, Magtec, Speer, PPU, S&B, Federal, etc., bought when on sale.

Just getting back into reloading. I’m reloading on a Dillon 550C and had a friend who has one and reloaded for years help get me started. I weigh every 8-10th charge and spot check about the same for COAL when I reload.

I loaded 124 gr Xtreme bullets with 3.95 grains W231. COAL is 1.149.

Using the Hodgdon data for Berry 124 gr bullets, the range is 3.9-4.0

View attachment 1059197

Brass is mixed but all factory ammo cases on their first reload…I know this because it’s my brass.

These loads seem very hot. I don’t have a chronograph to check actual velocity, but compared to factory ammo, it’s zesty!

What tells me it’s hot?

1. Cases are sailing 6-8 feet during ejection vs 1-2 ft from factory ammo.

2. Steel targets on our private range are swinging much more like as if they are hit by my .45 (230 FMJ factory) compared to factory 115 gr 9MM

I’m shooting with my Glock 19.

Is it possible Olin loaded the wrong powder In the jar, or am I so accustomed to weak ammo that I just don’t know better…


I’m thinking hard about dropping down to 3.5 grains of powder and working up to 3.8 grains to see what feels good, but as this is way below the minimum range for the bullets, will I have issues?

Thanks for any advice.

Your method of determining "hot" is not really valid. Your factory ammo may be wimpy

The Hodgdon range of HP38 is 3.9 to 4.4grains (not 4 grs)

The Extreme bullet is not the same as the Berry Hollow base, how did you arrive at your COL?

 

[Buzznrose]

Your method of determining "hot" is not really valid. Your factory ammo may be wimpy

The Hodgdon range of HP38 is 3.9 to 4.4grains (not 4 grs)

The Extreme bullet is not the same as the Berry Hollow base, how did you arrive at your COL?

I measured the loaded round with digital calipers.