9x18 and possibly .380 Concealed Carry Decision

[AethelstanAegen]

Hi,
I've been carrying a Springfield XD 45 Compact as my main concealed carry pistol for a while and I'm very happy with it, however, sometimes on warm days here in VA, it's a little hard to conceal. I've considered alternative carry options other than my usual pancake holster, such as IWB, but generally find them uncomfortable as it's still a pretty large and heavy pistol.

Long story short, I'm looking to find something smaller, lighter, and hopefully fairly cheap as it will really be a place filler when my XD isn't a viable option. I've really been intrigued by various pistols chambered for 9x18 Makarov. The three leading contenders are the Polish P-64, the Hungarian PA-63, or a CZ-82.

The P-64 and CZ-82 are slightly leading in that I have a C&R and so they're both easier/cheaper for me to acquire, though I'm also part Hungarian, so the PA-53 has some allure (though I've heard it kicks like a mule before spring changes). I'm living in Charlottesville, VA and the only local gun store doesn't have any of the three pistols so I don't really have much of a chance of holding one in my hand to see how it feels.

For about $200, I can see ordering one from AIM, J&G, etc without it being a huge risk, but I wanted to get the knowledgable opinions of you all as to which of these pistols has seemed to fill a nice concealed carry role for you. I guess I would also love to hear from someone who might have experience with and XD compact who can give me an idea of just how much smaller these pistols are (ie, grip length, barrel length, and thickness of the slide...which is the part that seems to make CC with the XD difficult for me). I'm thinking that I'll likely try to carry my choice here IWB or perhaps in a pocket if possible (I've heard some people have managed it with the P-64).

I also thought about various .380 pistols but generally it seems these old surplus workhorses are cheaper, just as reliable, and fire a slightly more powerful round...so I'm inclined to stay in 9x18 Makarov but if you have a .380 suggestion, I'm also willing to hear it.

Sorry for that long ramble, but in summary:

-Looking for a compact concealed carry, easier to CC than my XD compact
-PA-63, CZ-82 and Polish P-64 frontrunners so far, may consider .380
-I have a CCW permit for VA and a C&R FFL, so C&R eligible pistols a plus
-just any suggestions or thoughts on size/concealability would be greatly appreciated.
-Massive bonus points to anyonw who can post a picture of one of these compared to a widely known pistol (such as a Glock or 1911, or XD ) for size comparison.

Many thanks!

 

[legion3]

The 9x18 ammo is more "powerful" and the russian stuff is pretty cheap $ wise, than the 9x17 or 380.

Choice of quality SD ammo is far more plentiful in 380.

Manufacturers are making new pocket sized and bigger 380's all the time, no one is making a new makarov caliber guns.


I carried a FEG SMC-918 (the civilian version of the 53 and a copy of the PPK and similar to the P-64 but more refined and with a better trigger) in a pocket holster for many years when I still had some of the "better" ammo for the 9x18 Mak, The old Corbon HP (no longer made) and the PS Grand (no longer imported).

I now carry a ruger LCP in a pocket holster when I need a pocket gun.

These guns are way smaller than the XD compact FWIW.

 

[harmon rabb]

If you want cheap, reliable, small, light, and 9x18, go with a PA-63. Southern Ohio Gun has them for $150. They're not c&r, but the very low price helps offset that. You'll need to swap the hammer spring and recoil spring to make it usable, but you can get the springs from Wolf for like $10.

 

[Bangzoom]

9x18 and possibly....

I have the CZ 82 (9x18) and CZ 83 (380). I favor wheel guns, however, I stumbled across a CZ 82 at a show and never looked back. Ammo is affordable and available. The CZ is very reliable and easy to clean.

Good luck..
bz

 

[makarovnik]

PA-63 and P64 have NASTY recoil, go with a CZ or real Makarov.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks for all the advice so far everyone! Does the double stack, CZ-82 mag make for a large bulky grip, thus affecting concealability?

If you conceal carry a CZ-82, what type of holster (or even a specific holster) do you tend to favor?

Many thanks again!

 

[harmon rabb]

PA-63 and P64 have NASTY recoil, go with a CZ or real Makarov.

Just replace the recoil spring with the heaviest that Wolf sells and they're fine. My pa-63's recoil was awful before the spring swap, and after is comfortable. Night and day difference.

 

[woad_yurt]

I had a P64, did a spring swap and still got my finger dented from all of the sharp edges. I sold it; it was just too uncomfortable to use. The trigger had the sharpest corners of any gun I've ever shot.

I shot my friend's CZ-82 at the range and it really slapped my trigger finger. It took more than a week to un-tenderize. It felt like I bruised the bone. However, note that everyone else on the planet seems to have no problem with them. One thing, though, for me, it's a little big for hot weather carry.

I have a PA-63 and love it. I did the Wolff spring swap (lighter main spring and heavier recoil spring) and it turned into quite a nice gun. I also removed the thumb bump on the left grip as it was in the wrong place for my hand and it also made it too fat for my carrying tastes. It does kick a bit still but it's a fairly light pistol, about 21 ounces, so that's to be expected. It's never jammed in maybe 600-700 rounds and is quite accurate. I carry it quite frequently. I totally recommend one.

 

[Jbabbler]

I loved my P64 and shot it great but never trusted it. The biggest issue with them is that they are not drop safe. I know that nobody intends to drop their gun but it can happen. A member on the P64 forum just dropped his loaded/uncocked P64 and it shot him through his arm and out the other side. The PA63, on the other hand, has a firing pin safety and will not allow the firing pin to move forward unless the trigger is engaged.

His report here

 

[Fastcast]

I shot my friend's CZ-82 at the range and it really slapped my trigger finger. It took more than a week to un-tenderize. It felt like I bruised the bone.

If a CZ82 smacked your finger around that bad, it's in serious need of a new recoil spring.....Simple as that!

 

[Jbabbler]

If a CZ82 smacked your finger around that bad, it's in serious need of a new recoil spring.....Simple as that!

I don't see where trigger slap could be caused by a recoil spring.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thank you all for your imput. It would seem to me that most people would recommend the CZ-82 or the PA-63 over the P-64.

I'm thinking that the size/weight of the PA-63 might be better suited to my needs. I've heard SOG has them but does anyone know of a reliable, price-reasonable alternative seller (in case, as seems to happen, the SOG website is behind their actual stocked supplies)?

Many, many thanks!

 

[Fastcast]

I don't see where trigger slap could be caused by a recoil spring.

Theoretically, no but if his finger is beat up that bad from a CZ82 I'd guess he needs a recoil spring replacement, regardless.

My tight as a tick buddy who didn't want to invest in a new recoil spring for his 82 was complaining of the same thing. He shot mine and soon thereafter decided to get a new recoil spring and says it's much more comfortable to shoot now and is not beating up his finger or palm anymore. Go figure.....

 

[dovedescending]

I conceal my 82 in a High Noon Split Decision (Tuckable IWB). The double stack doesn't really affect concealability for me (5'10", 220 lbs). It is a little on the heavy side, but since switching to a sturdier belt, it's been much easier to carry for long stretches. I hope to get a good OWB pancake holster soon.

I would recommend getting a recoil spring set from Wolff and playing around with the different strengths. I understand Buffalo Bore is making 9x18 right now that gives an edge over the surplus stuff. Haven't tried it yet, but I would imagine the heaviest spring available from Wolff would work nicely with this ammo.

I can't speak to the PA-63, but hey, why not get both? 9x18 is an addictive little cartridge...

 

[Snowdog]

I have both the P64 and CZ-82. For carry, of the two, I chose the P64 as it's the best for the method in which I would carry it (Thunderwear). It's extremely slim and surprisingly accurate due to it's excellent SA trigger (despite having absolutely the worst DA I have ever experience).
If I were to chose one for belt carry, I would be without a doubt the CZ-82 as both the DA and SA trigger pull is phenomenal, it has wonderful sites for military surplus handgun and it has exactly twice the magazine capacity of the smaller P64.

The P64 is easier to carry in deep concealment, while the CZ-82 offers more to the user in just about every other regard.

Jbabbler, I find the story that you've linked to very disturbing. Not only do I carry the same way Tinkerer did, but rather recently I dropped the P64 while drawing it from the Thunderwear concealment to place in a lockbox. I absolutely recall seeing the dark maw of the muzzle as it landed hammer-first onto the carpeted floor. Had it fired, I do believe the destination of that chambered slug would have been somewhere in the vicinity of my face.
Though I don't make a habit of dropping firearms, I do find this quite troubling.
I do believe I'll research the safety features of the P64 further after reading of Tinkerer's event.

 

[Girodin]

The three leading contenders are the Polish P-64, the Hungarian PA-63, or a CZ-82.

Of those three the CZ 82 is the nicest gun IMHO. Two things going against it are its size, particularly the thickness of the grip and the weight.

I was going to post some pics next to a G26 but I can't find them. The CZ 82 appears to be larger gun in some dimensions and overall is pretty close to the size of the G26, so it is not real small, and definitely not something I would be carrying around in my pocket. It seems to weigh (just holding both not measuring on a scale) roughly about what a G26 does as well. I think it would be very manageable IWB.

The P64 has a terrible DA trigger pull. I haven't had a chance to try one with a spring change. I hear they are improved but the starting point is so atrocious it would need to be dramatically improved for it to be approaching what I would find acceptable.

For the money the CZ 82 is a very good gun. It is large enough, however, that if initial purchase price is not the number one factor (and a few hundred dollars one way or another is not that much over the life of a gun and in relation to other costs and considerations) then there are 9mms worth looking at that are the same size or smaller.

The CZ is a whole lot of gun for the $170 or so you can find them for. It has a relatively good trigger in both single and double action. The sights are acceptable. It has a good magazine capacity. I find the mag release hard to reach with the factory grips. Over all I like it though and think its price tag definitely belies its performance.

 

[106rr]

The CZ is safer and has better ergonomics. The hit rate will be very high even under stress. It is renowned for it's accuracy and reliability. You will be uncomfortable if you try to wear a CZ 82/83 in Thunderwear.

 

[harmon rabb]

Eh. I don't know that the cz-82 is more mechanically accurate than any other 9x18 pistol. What makes it "accurate" in most people's hands is the excellent trigger.

 

[Tortuga12]

I've got a PA-63, got a spring kit and some grips from Marshalgrips.com, and I love it! Recoil is definitely there, but not that bad IMO. After all, it's not a gun I'm putting 200 rds a week through! Very accurate, too.

 

[test drive]

the p64 has been in my carry rotation for 3 years. a great gun and verry flat. the gun is drop safe. the gun in the artical had problems.

 

[Frozen North]

I just did this on Friday. I went looking for a pocket gun, and the first one to catch my eye was a Polish 9x18. It was small, flat and felt good in my hand. It was however, heavy as a brick with it's steel frame. The ammo choices they had on hand (very large shop) were limited to one import FMJ and a no name HP.

I bought a Bersa 380 CC. About the same size as the 9x18, but with an aluminum frame and chambered in 380. 9x18 may have a little more velocity, but there are 380 loads with modern HP bullets. I would guess that wound performance would be a wash.

The Bersa was a better choice for me....

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thank you for all the replies, Gents. I realized that when making a thread about concealed carry with the 9x18 Makarov round, I made a rather glaring mistake but not including the original Makarov pistol itself in the running.

Anyone have any thoughts on East German, Bulgarian, or Russian Makarov pistols? Does anyone know of a good source for one of these? They seem to be somewhat rare among places like AIM Surplus and J&G.

Your comments and suggestions have been very helpful and I really appreciate it.

 

[makarovnik]

I would not recommend the PA-63 over the P64. Other way around. I'm also not sure the comment about the P64 not being drop safe is correct. It might be but I will have to check before I concur.

I hated my PA-63. It looked great but recoil was bad and it chocked on even FMJ and the feed ramp is part of the alloy frame and tends to get dinged up. I would not shoot hollow points even if the gun will digest them because of the feed ramp issue.

My P64 is all steel and had nasty recoil that has been somewhat tamed with new recoil spring and slip on rubber grips.

P.S. I traded my PA-63 in for a Hi-Point 9mm and never looked back.

 

[wristtwister]

I had a PA-63 that was so uncomfortable to shoot that I got rid of it. I've got a Makarov Bulgie that I absolutely love, along with the 9X18 round, and it's easily concealable. Anything has to be okay if it was field tested by the KGB and found to be acceptable... Seriously, the 9X18 Mak was carried by almost every com-bloc police force in Europe for years, and has a solid record of turning live people into dead people.

The first time I shot my Mak, I was impressed with the difference between the "crack" of the round compared to my regular 9MM and how hot the round was during shooting. It's clearly high velocity, and perfect for a carry pistol.

WT

 

[Olympus]

If you want real, honest opinions of the P-64 from people who have been shooting them for years, I urge you to go check out the Unofficial P-64 Forum. There is a wealth of information from primary sources, guys who own the guns, work on them, modify them, and carry them.

I went through the same process that the OP is going through. The P-64, PA-63, and a real Mak were all guns I was looking at purchasing. Then I found the P-64 Forum, joined, and spent a lot of time reading through threads and getting a TON of information. I ended up buying a P-64 from J&G and couldn't be happier! It was my primary carry gun for a while and now it is still in my carry rotation. When not carried, it serves duty as a console gun in one of our vehicles. I swapped the recoil spring and the hammer spring like many recommend and it made a lot of difference. A lot of people complain about the heavy trigger pull, but many fail to realize that the gun is a military surplus pistol, not a modern commercial gun.

I would probably have rather had the original Makarov, but the difference in price just didn't justify buying one at the time. And I prefer the look and the lines of the P-64 compared to the PA-63. And while both the P-64 and PA-63 have some tough recoil, I believe the PA-63 has a lighter frame and I would rather have the heavier of the two pistols to make up for the recoil factor. Anyway, that was the process and end result that I went through when considering the similar choices of the OP. Hope it provided some food for thought.