9x18 and possibly .380 Concealed Carry Decision

[Snowdog]

The first time I shot my Mak, I was impressed with the difference between the "crack" of the round compared to my regular 9MM and how hot the round was during shooting. It's clearly high velocity, and perfect for a carry pistol.

As adequate as the 9x18 round is for defense (I carry one when I can't get by wearing a belt holster), it is undeniably a mild round.
It is substantially less powerful than the common, non +P 9x19 and tends to be viewed in a pale light when compared directly to the 9x19.
It's best compared to the .380acp, where it does possess an edge in most cases.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Alright everyone, I think I've decided on the P64 given that it seems the most concealable for the scenarios I envision (ie when my XD is too large in it's pancake holster). I really appreciate everyone's input and advice. Many, many thanks!

 

[harmon rabb]

Alright everyone, I think I've decided on the P64 given that it seems the most concealable for the scenarios I envision (ie when my XD is too large in it's pancake holster). I really appreciate everyone's input and advice. Many, many thanks!

I think the pa-63 is nicer to carry due to the aluminum frame, plus there is no question that it is drop safe. There is some question as to whether the p64 is.

In any event, with either of them, you'll need to swap the recoil springs and hammer springs to have a shootable gun. Both have horrible recoil with the stock recoil springs, and 25lb DA triggers with the stock hammer springs.

 

[Girodin]

A lot of people complain about the heavy trigger pull, but many fail to realize that the gun is a military surplus pistol, not a modern commercial gun.

So is the CZ 82 and it doesn't suck. Perhaps you are thinking that the CZ is relatively modern. Well then an older surplus military pistol is the old Remington Rand 1911 I have and its trigger doesn't suck (we could go on). Military pistol, or even old military pistols does not mean that a gun ought to, or justify its having, have the worst trigger I've ever pulled (actually a PA63 was the worst). It is simply a poor design. People complain about the triggers as they come because they're truly horrible. I've seen people that literally couldn't pull it with one finger. The flip side is that the guns are cheap and they can be made better. I have nothing against them but critiquing the triggers as they come is legitimate.

 

[Cactus Jack Arizona]

Technically, all the foreign firearms chambered for the 9X18 are good guns, some favored more than the others.

Personally, I like the "True" Makarovs, followed by the FEG PA-63 and then the Polish P-83. Some will say that they are clunky guns. However, I've never had a Failure to Feed, Failure to Fire, or a Failure to Eject. Neither have I experienced any problems with the 9X18 ammo from Wolf, Silver Bear, or Hornady.

"True" Makarovs: Russian, East German, Bulgarian, or Chinese,
or pistols chambered for the 9X18 round: CZ-82, FEG PA-63, Polish P-64, Polish P-83; take your pick.

Do let us know which one you buy. However, like most of us Mak fanatics, you'll probably end up with more than just one pistol.

 

[Snowdog]

People complain about the triggers as they come because they're truly horrible.

I've got to agree with this. I was quite surprised when I first received my 1895 Nagant that the trigger pull was so heavy that, though I could pull it, I doubt I would have been able to hit anything beyond 10' in DA. This I would call "bad".

Then I received my P64, already aware the DA would be "comically heavy". After 2 pulls of the trigger, fatigue would have prevented a 3rd pull (this being from a healthy, in-shape guy in my mid-30's). This I would describe as being so far beyond "bad" that "horrendous" would be perfectly fitting. It has got to be somewhere around a 30# pull, without exaggeration.

However, instead of trying to convert the pistol into something that could truly be described as functionally DA/SA, I just treat it as a single-action only and plan to pull the hammer for the first shot, especially as the SA pull is superb.

Though the whole drop safe issue I find alarming (especially as I have dropped mine already, directly onto the hammer from waist height), I must stay that the P64 does make for a fine carry pistol if small is what you want.

If you're ok with a heavy-for-its-size steel-frame pistol chambered for a rather mild cartridge of 6+1 capacity with a (unaltered) "comically heavy" trigger, I think you'll find this pistol a pleasure. It's appears to be made incredibly well and as I have said, has the potential to be very accurate, especially for such a svelte pistol. Though the 9x18 simply cannot compare to a 9x19 in terms of performance overall, is does reside in the .380 ACP and .38 special (from a 2" barrel) power range, which is plenty for the task.

Being C&R eligible is the icing on the cake. The P64 is a solid investment as far as I'm concerned. Heck, SOG even handpicked a "1976" manufacture for me on request for a $10 handpick fee (in what appeared unissued condition).

 

[AethelstanAegen]

I just treat it as a single-action only and plan to pull the hammer for the first shot, especially as the SA pull is superb.

That was actually my thinking as well. I'll probably eventually wind up replacing both the recoil and the hammer springs but a very stiff DA trigger would make it just all the harder for the pistol to go bang when I don't want it to. I do also like the simple loaded chamber indicator, which while an unnecessary feature is a nice to have on a carry pistol.

They're certainly all excellent guns but it seems that the P-64 is certainly the smallest. As I'm really looking for an alternative carry to me XD in hot weather, size is very important...weight tends not to be an issue with me, especially as I have several good belts. The true Makarov and the CZ-82 are certainly in the running for future purchases but they don't give me a great deal in terms of a size reduction from an XD, so it was a toss up between the PA-63 and the P-64. which the P-64 still wins in size.

Now I did have one last question. I know the P-64 has the magazine release on the bottom of the grip. I'm certainly more familiar with the button mag release on the side, such as on the PA-63. Has anyone found the mag release on the P-64 hard to use? Ie, would someone with larger hands/fingers have some trouble sliding it or has anyone ever accidently released the mag with this type of relase?

Thank you for all your help and I can tell that whatever my final decision, this certainly won't be my last 9x18 Makarov pistol...it sounds like an addictive caliber to buy in.

 

[WardenWolf]

Buy a 9x18 gun. You won't be sorry. I carry a P-64 every day. Very accurate, very good quality. I also own a Bulgarian Makarov and PA-63. All fine guns, all very accurate. Let's face it: the 9x18 guns are cheaper, the ammo is cheaper, and the guns are much higher quality on average than the commercial .380's. They have to be. They had to pass military and police testing. When you get any 9x18 gun, just put the strongest recoil spring Wolff makes in it, and that'll make the recoil manageable.

Silver Bear makes a nice 9x18 hollowpoint, and there's a few nastier loadings available, including one from Buffalo Bore that they recently introduced. Almost all 9x18 ammo is good quality. Only BAD stuff is Blazer. You just can't lose with one of these guns.

 

[Snowdog]

On the P64, the magazine release is somewhat recessed into the bottom of the grip, so it won't release unless you intend it to. Though recessed, it seems to be just as easy to use as my other pistols with such a release. It seems to be well thought out.

I also like LVE Silver Bear, both in JHP and FMJ. One thing I have noticed, Silverbear 94gr JHPs don't typically want to expand from the P64 and just about as often from a CZ-82. I am rather convinced they will not expand at all if fired though a layer of clothing.
What it does exceed at is punching a cleaner hole in things, which I would expect to equate to more rapid blood loss from your assailant and nicer holes in paper when at the range. My P64 feeds these somewhat wide-meplate JHPs perfectly and they're relatively inexpensive, so I go this route.

Below are a few (mostly plugged) rounds of Silver Bear 94gr JHP fired into plumbers putty and playdough from a P64 (and CZ-82, muzzle to the left). All that were fired through a single layer of clothing failed to expand, but penetrated quite impressively. Though expansion wasn't common, the bullet profile lead me to carry it.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Alright guys, I'm going with the P-64 as it fits my need right now, but I'll be looking forward to acquiring other 9x18 maks in the future as well. I'm going to start the process of shopping around for a good price, but that fact that it's C&R will certainly help. Thanks again for everyone's input and for answering all my questions. I'm pretty new to THR and it's great to have such a knowledgable group willing to help. Many thanks.

 

[Girodin]

I'm certainly more familiar with the button mag release on the side, such as on the PA-63. Has anyone found the mag release on the P-64 hard to use?

I don't find it difficult to use per se. My objection would be simply that it is a totally different operation than your other gun. I prefer consistence, particularly if you will be trading between the two of them regularly. I don't suggest this is an insurmountable thing just that I would prefer as much consistency as I can get. It makes training more efficient and it makes one less likely to bobble under stress.

 

[WardenWolf]

I have no issues with my P-64 or Makarov's mag release. It's perfect for a small pistol that's going to be carried close against your body. It's one less thing to get pressed accidentally. If you're involved in a situation where you have to change mags, you probably shouldn't have gotten involved in that situation to begin with.

 

[Girodin]

If you're involved in a situation where you have to change mags, you probably shouldn't have gotten involved in that situation to begin with.

Comments like this are just silly. I could just as easily say that if you're involved in a situation where you need to fire a shot, you probably shouldn't have gotten involved in that situation to begin with. In both situations it is probably true but that fact is of little comfort at that moment.

Changing a mag mag is a basic part of being able to handle a gun. If you are in a situation where you need to do it then you better be proficient at it. Also there are reasons other than having shot the gun dry why one might be stripping the mag and or changing mags. I also do not think it is that hard to imagine scenarios in which one might have cause to change mags on a gun with a 6 round capacity. Are they the typical defensive situation? Probably not, but are they outside the realm of reasonably possible? I would say no.

 

[WardenWolf]

In all honestly, changing a magazine on a heel-release gun isn't much slower. You pull the new mag out, grab the heel release, the old mag drops free, and you slide the new one home.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

It sounds like the heel mag release has caused no problems for anyone and was well designed. Thanks for the info! Like anything, I'm sure it's just a matter of practice to get the manuever down pat. I never complain when I'm given an excuse for more range time (though I'll swap out the springs first).

Does anyone know if SOG has the P-64 in stock? I haven't been added to their dealer list yet (a copy of my C&R is on the way to them) so I can't see the firearms section. Royal Tiger Imports has them for $179+

 

[Snowdog]

I haven't seen their typical spread on the latest catalogs, with January 2011, edition #228 being the last one I received. There was a "concealed carry hanguns" segment on page 22 where it was listed for $169 plus $10 for handpick.

If it helps any, the item number is SHG-P64. The only way to be certain would be to give them a call 1-800-944-4867 to verify. I somewhat suspect they're likely on the low side if they still have them at all.

 

[AethelstanAegen]

Thanks, Snowdog. I'll shoot them a call. Thanks again for everyone's advice and input.

 

[xr1200]

The markov size pistols are actully pretty large in comparison to a smith body guard 380 or a lcp etc. The cz52 isn't a bad gun, but it is on the larger size of a 380 sized pistols its even larger than a wather ppk in size. If you went to a gun store and compared a cz82 to a glock 26 you would probably find the glock is smaller. The main thing you want to consider is how the gun will print in your pocket or how it will ride in a concealment holster.

 

[Girodin]

In all honestly, changing a magazine on a heel-release gun isn't much slower.

No one asserted it was that much slower, although it certainly is slower. Whether it is "much" slower is relative It was asserted that it is different, and it certainly is. Some people may find consistency in training to be a notable advantage others may not be as concerned about that for various reasons.

OP let us know what you think of the 64 when you get it.

 

[Olympus]

I ordered my P-64 from J&G Sales. I called and ordered and told them that I would be willing to pay the extra $10 for a hand select gun. The guy told me that the guns were pretty much pristine and it would really be a waste, so he saved me $10 and I ended up with a very pristine gun. If the gun had 500 rounds through it before I received it, I'd be suprised. It even has a very nice bluing on it.

 

[harmon rabb]

The markov size pistols are actully pretty large in comparison to a smith body guard 380 or a lcp etc. The cz52 isn't a bad gun, but it is on the larger size of a 380 sized pistols its even larger than a wather ppk in size. If you went to a gun store and compared a cz82 to a glock 26 you would probably find the glock is smaller. The main thing you want to consider is how the gun will print in your pocket or how it will ride in a concealment holster.

Uh, yeah, a makarov or cz-82 is huge compared to a little pocket 380. So what? They're not the same kind of gun. A mak or cz-82 is far more shootable than a little pocket 380.

A G26 is definitely smaller than a cz-82. The cz-82 is more G19 sized. Personally, I don't shoot glocks very well, but do shoot my cz-82 well, so I'd rather carry a cz-82 than a G19. I'd rather have a hit with a 9x18 than a miss with a 9mm.

I don't really think any of the 9x18 guns are pocket sized, even though you may be able to do it with a pa-63 or p64 if you have large pockets.

 

[harmon rabb]

Buy a 9x18 gun. You won't be sorry. I carry a P-64 every day. Very accurate, very good quality. I also own a Bulgarian Makarov and PA-63. All fine guns, all very accurate. Let's face it: the 9x18 guns are cheaper, the ammo is cheaper, and the guns are much higher quality on average than the commercial .380's. They have to be. They had to pass military and police testing. When you get any 9x18 gun, just put the strongest recoil spring Wolff makes in it, and that'll make the recoil manageable.

A lot of people complain about the heavy trigger pull, but many fail to realize that the gun is a military surplus pistol, not a modern commercial gun.

It's just a bad design on the p64 and pa-63's that leads to the awful DA trigger. Makarovs, cz-82's, and to an extent p83's don't suffer from those issues. Heck, the cz-82 has a better DA/SA trigger than just about any modern commercial gun that you can buy. Perhaps some high end Sig or H&K has one on par or a tad better, but that would be it.

 

[CZguy]

It's just a bad design on the p64 and pa-63's that leads to the awful DA trigger. Makarovs, cz-82's, and to an extent p83's don't suffer from those issues. Heck, the cz-82 has a better DA/SA trigger than just about any modern commercial gun that you can buy. Perhaps some high end Sig or H&K has one on par or a tad better, but that would be it.

I agree the CZ-82 is a good shooter, and frankly the best value available right now. (personal opinion)

The P-64 can be made to shoot better with some Wolff springs, and if I remember correctly they sell a spring kit for this model.

I'm not a fan of the Pa-63, but that's just a personal choice, many are.

 

[Stringfellow]

You can't get much better of a bargain than a CZ82. It has one of the sweetest, smoothest triggers I have felt at any price. It is more accurate than I am. And it is solid as a tank. Some of them come in pretty rough, as mine was. But they are easy to refinish.



I don't carry mine CC, but the slide is ironically .82 of an inch wide, and my grips are 1.10" wide. If someone made metal grips, you could go down to right around an inch. I would think the skinny barrel would make it pretty comfortable. The only catch is that it is heavy--perhaps 28 ounces.



Supposedly you can get 1-2 more rounds into the mag by trimming the follower. And you can use a Mec-Gar +2 baseplate. Before you know it, you are at around 15+1 of easily aimable 9mm Mak.



Not bad for $160 from CDNN...

 

[CZguy]

Stringfellow,

Where can I get some of the nice grips in your post?

CZguy,