A few questions from a neophyte

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The "I Want" list will be endless, and the pictures posted will have you thinking about how you can reconfigure your budget.
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Majic:

Well, I suppose it's a good idea to start small then. My outside budget is about $500 initially, but I can probably spend more over time (provided the economy rebounds, and my skills don't go completely unrecognized). My impression from looking at a few websites is that ammo for 9mm is about 5 times as expensive as ammo for .22lr. So if I pay $20 for 100 rounds of 9mm I should be able to get approximately 500 rounds of .22lr for about the same cost. I'm not sure how much I'd actually use, but let's assume an average of 50 rounds per week. (I have no idea whether this is a little or a lot.) But at that rate with a 9mm I'd spend $520 for 9mm ammo in a year or $104 for .22lr. So that's a $416 savings in just a year, which would buy a fairly decent 9mm. I have to say that looking at it that way I could have either 1 or 2 guns at the end of 12 months for about the same amount of money, provided I could wait for the 9mm. And chances are I could probably come up with the dough for the 9mm before the year is up.


And that brings up another question:

What would be the tradeoff between a .22lr version of my favored gun (at this point the CZ 75BD), and something like a Buckmark or MK2 .22 target pistol for about $150 less? My take is that the target pistols are more accurate, but would not have the same "feel." So I'd like some thoughts on that. Would purchasing a CZ 75B Kadet now be a better idea than getting the buckmark? Is the accuracy that different? And as part of that I guess I can't be sure that after shooting for a few months I might decide I like something better than the CZ. But I imagine it would still be similar to most metal semi-autos.

You'll note that I've sort of come around to thinking more seriously about starting with the .22lr, and it's mostly the economics of the ammo that make sense.

Update: Apparently according to several threads in the semi-auto section the Kadet Kit *will* work with the decocker model. If that turns out to be true, it pretty much settles things. I'll get the CZ75BD and then get a Kadet Kit in a couple of months. (It's a slide mounted decocker after all, so why *wouldn't* it work, since you change the slide when you do the conversion?) But the blurb on the CZ website seems to be misleading.
 
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You will move faster on the learning curve with a .22 handgun. All the elements of shooting is the same, but without the noise and recoil it's easier to concentrate on the basics.
The better .22 pistols will allow you to easier see you progression as they will have better balance, sights, triggers, and general construction which is required for consistant, accurate shooting. This helps greatly in learning.
A good .22lr will last a lifetime. Some make the mistake of seeing it only as a trainer and quickly get rid of them in their quest to hurry and shoot centerfires. In reality you will see over time that you will shoot a .22lr much more than any other cartridge. When things seem not to go right, pick up the .22lr to solve your shooting problem.
A dedicated .22lr handgun would be the best route to go. It would have the qualities that the little rimfire cartridge needs built into it instead of a handgun with qualities serving another cartridge that has been modified to use the .22lr. You will get a quality handgun that will perform several duties, fire inexpensive rounds, and last a lifetime. You will be able to shoot to your heart's content while spending minimum money in ammo allowing you to save for future purchases. By the time you would have saved for the larger caliber handgun the .22lr will have taught you the basics of shooting.
A brick (500) of .22lrs for $15 to $20 will go a long ways.
 
I HIGHLY reccomend the CZ-75 and .22 Kadet kit combo. The base CZ is a great gun and the Kadet kit is very well made and very accurate. You can get both for about $550, give or take.

Personally, I'd reccomend a standard 75B in 9mm over the .40 version or the decocker version. The standard version is cheaper than the decocker and always you to choose whether to use the gun as a traditional double-action (first shot DA after manually decocking) or as "Cocked and Locked" single-action, like the 1911A1. Unless you are going to carry the gun as a CCW gun and are unfomfortable with either "cocked and locked" or manual decocking, I don't see what advantage having a decocker would be. For range use, it's really not needed.

Right now there are great deals going on the CZ-75B "Tactical" version. It's the standard 75B with a green frame and black slide that comes with a nice "tactical" folding knife. You can get the gun/knife combo for under $340.

I'd reccomend 9mm for two reasons. The first is that 9mm ammo is cheaper than .40, which always you to shoot more for the same money and the second is that you can usually find a 9mm CZ cheaper than a .40 model.

Btw, the best deal going for retail 9mm is the Wal-Mart Winchester "White Box" 9mm at $11/100 rounds. You can get 9mm even cheaper than that if you order in bulk (1,000 rds usually) through the mail.
 
Trebor:

Thanks for the advice. Something to think about, I guess. I just assumed that the BD would still allow me to "cock and lock" but now that I think of it since the decocker replaces the safety how could it? I may also take a look at the compact, though, just because I have small hands and it might fit better. I'm assuming that one would have to add around $50 to the $340 price to include transfer and shipping, which makes it just about the same price as it is locally here in VA. (Maybe $10 more, to support the local dealer.) Of course, they don''t give you a knife.

By the way, I can't seem to link to the URL you mentioned. I get a page that says "This Domain is for Sale." So I dropped the "s" and it seemed to work. Thanks for the tip.

I gather that the Kadet Kit also works with the compact, the 85 and the P01. That's pretty neat, and that although it's not quite as accurated as a dedicated target pistol it's close.
 
The compact model will not solve the problem associated with smaller hands. The difference will be in the slide assembly being shorter. The frames are the same size and trigger reach will be no different in the 2 pistols.
You should really visit the gun stores and hold as many models in your hand as possible to determine a good fit for you. A good fit is required for good shooting, especially so when learning.
 
I decided to go with Rob's (Trebor's) suggestion, and bought a CZ 75B. After trying several weapons I decided that if I were going to use the CZ 75 in any of its configurations I'd probably choose the "locked and cocked" manual of arms, because the trigger is closer for my rather smallish fingers. The decocked DA mode would work, but I'm on the verge of pushing the gun to the left on the first shot because I just barely have room to clear some space between my finger and the side of the weapon in that mode. (No curve on the trigger finger.) So, at least with that particular weapon the SA mode is probably better. I could go with an SA pistol too, I suppose, but the 75B was in stock and the SA is a bit more expensive. (I can always trade with someone later, I suppose.)

The Kadet conversion is really trick. It's one of the better and more accurate conversions out there, and the argument that switching back and forth between .22lr and 9mm helps with flinching seemed to be a very good point. You're essentially using the same gun, so all the variables other than the recoil and flash will remain the same.

I'm pretty sure i"ll eventually get other weapons. I'm already thinking that a subcompact would be great on my long distance cycling excursions, where I'm essentially riding alone in rural areas for 6 to 12 hours. On a bycycle the lighter the better, because you have to lug every ounce up every hill yourself. I'm also pretty sure I'll eventually want a .22 target pistol, just because they're really neat and highly evolved little devices. I remember lusting after a Ruger when I was a cadet at Culver. (My Dad refused to let me have one, although I did have a target rifle.)

So I guess I've made my first purchase, and thanks to everyone for all your invaluable help. This is a superb Forum. Top of the line.

--Scott
 
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Don't be a stranger now... we'll hope to read some enlightening range reports of your experiences. And there will be some twists and turns that you may want to straighten out - plenty of help here.

Till next time... enjoy!

-Andy
 
Congragulations on your purchase. Let us know how it works out for you and if you need any help or suggestions. High cap mags for the CZ are pretty easy to find at a good price. Mec Gar or "CZ Factory" are the best, but I've also had good luck with Pro Mags. Avoid USA brand mags.
 
Thanks Rob. I went with Smurfslayer to his range, and managed to shoot up about 60 rounds of centerfire ammo, plus another 20 or so of .22lr, like it was an afterthought. I'm definitely going to have to figure a way to get that Kadet Kit. Most of my old shooting instincs from my rifle days were still good with the pistol, although I should have insisted on getting a pistol in HS. I don't know what got in my may, but it may have been my mother's influence on my dad. In addition to pumping a bunch of rounds through my weapon, I also fired a Bushmark target pistol, another small .22 semi, a .45ACP EAA Witness, and a really sweet Springfield XD subcompact that was very accurate. After the session about 15 people, most of whom were instructors, went to a Jewish Restaurant and had turkey and roast beef. It was great fun!

I have just a touch of remorse that I didn't get the decocker version, because I'm now thinking that creating an automatic habit of switching off the safety might be a problem if I ever get a Glock type weapon and want to use a different manual of arms. Oh well, I still have the choice and if I chose to use the SA mode, I'll just have to get some callouses is the right places on my thumb.

It was great of Dave to show me a few things, and to allow me to fire his pistols. And his buddies at the range were just as generous. I was a bit concerned about recoil and flash, but having fired the .45 now I can see that that was a non-issue. The CZ 75B was just perfect. It almost aims itself, it's so effortless. And I thought the trigger pull might be an issue after having heard some of the criticisms of that feature, but I found the trigger to be unproblematic. Of course, I came in without expectations.

One thing that might help. What sort of oil should I use, and is there an internet site that gives som instructions on cleaning, etc.? Oh, and what sort of ammo should I get for practice and for self defense? Is Buymart a source for both?
 
Well, I went ahead and popped for the Kadet Kit at J&G Sales, for $239. Probably could have picked it up used for less than that if I'd waited, but would have been blowing 9mm ammo in the mean time, and I suspect that the Kit can't even be had used for much less than $200. Guess I'll eat beans and rice for a month to do my Calvinistic penance.

I wonder if bike chain oil is alright for use in a gun? I have top of the line chain lube (Pro Gold), of the "no wax" variety, although it seems a little lighter weight than gun oil. But it's basically designed for the same kind of metal surfaces, and for similar wear and tear (although bike chains tend to get much dirtier so they often include cleaning agents). The lube I use also doesn't contain any silicone, which is a frequent additive. A lot of people seem to like snake oil for this purpose. (Just kidding.)

Snowing lightly at the moment. It's comforting.
 
Scott. There is really no need to "oil" a gun and things like bike oil and WD 40 are a real no-no. They collect dirty with just helps to wear out your firearm. For now I'd just use Hoppes No. 9. It will both clean and protect. As you learn more you may want to check out some others, but No. 9 has been around for 100 years and works. I must have a dozen in my collection but I always come back to No. 9. Guess I just love the smell. :D
 
Glad you had fun and found out that most ranges are full of friendly people. Keep your eyes open and you will learn a lot there.
Don't worry about switching to a Glock style pistol. All you will do is swipe at a safety that's not there. Something many people do from time to time switching from platform to platform. The problem comes in when you switch back the other way and forget the safety.
As to your oil it will do in a pinch, but the cleaning additive may create some sludge if the pistol gets really dirty (.22lr ammo is extremely dirty when you put the Kadet kit on) and that may slow the slide some causing Malfunctions. Just occasionally wipe down the slide rails and reoil during extended shooting sessions.
Most people seem to think that Walmart has the best prices on practice ammo. The Winchester white box is a good buy for bulk ammo purchases.

Now keep the front sight in focus, squeeze the triger, and welcome to the world of handgunning. Keep us posted on your progress and someone is always here for any problems.
 
Scott,

You'll like the Kadet Kit. I think J&G sales is going to screw you out of the second .22 mag that normally comes with the kit though. I only got one when I bought my kit from them 2-3 years ago. CZ-USA will sell you extra .22 mags at a good price, but charges a flat $8 per order for shipping, so hold off on buying an extra mag from them until you figure out if there is anything else you want from CZ.

The Kadet kit requires very minimal fitting. You can do it yourself with a needle file and a little patience. There are some good instructions over at the CZ forum. Fit it carefully because the less metal you remove from, the better. If you make it fit too lose it will affect accuracy. Unlike many .22's, my Kadet kit runs fine with a wide variety of .22 ammo. It does like some better then other's as far as accuracy goes though, so it likely will be worth the effort to buy several different brands of .22 and find out what your gun shoots best.

For cleaning and lubrication, I'm REALLY begining to like FP-10 as a lubricant. Go to www.fp10.com for more info. I'm not totally sold on it's cleaning properties yet though, but it does work OK by itself in a pinch. I still like traditional Hoppes #9 for a all purpose cleaner. M-Pro 7 also works well for cleaning, and has no offensive smell, but does NOT have any lubricating properties.

Don't overdo the lube. Apply a drop on the slide rails with the pistol field stripped and then after you put the gun back together, work the action a few times to distribute the lube. I usually put a single drop into the trigger area as well. The NRA Basic Pistol book has good info on cleaning and lubrication and I'm sure there are diagrams on line as well.
 
Regarding the use of bicycle chain lube as a gun lubricant I sent a query to the manufacturer of the lube I've been using for a number of years about whether his lube is appropriate for gun use. He is an avid gun owner and advocate and called me directly on the phone to discuss his oil. Now granted, he has an incentive to promote the stuff he formulated, but he seemed rather reluctant to provide this information to the general population, so keep it under your hat.

The lube doesn't contain any teflon or other contaminants that ore often used in bike chain lubes as well as some gun lubes. According to him the "Gunsight Academy" has made a determination that his bike chain lube is "the best AR-15 lube available." It not only lubricates, but prevents dirt from building up. A bullet manufacturer has determined that the use of this lube swabbed in the barrel "increases muzzle velocity by 42/feet per second" (although he refused to tell me which bullet manufacturer this was). I gather that the main reason for secrecy is that a gun accessory manufacturer is going to produce a variant of his lube for the gun market, and doesn't want the association known. (I guess they figure you guys are against bicycles or something.) I'd be happy to give anyone who's interested the name of the lube and the link to his web site if you want to email me. I have no idea who the "Gunsight Academy" is, or what their opinion is worth. Anyway, my slightly buggered up email is in my signoture if anyone is interested in trying the stuff out. I intend to. I suspect that the bike chain lube will be a lot cheaper than the gun lube version.

For what it's worth.
 
Not that I doubt any of the information the manufactor gave you, but the 42 fps velocity increase is really insignificant in any caliber. The bullet manufactor would be more interested in coatings for their bullet jackets before any bore treatment IMO.
Plus a bicycle lube is probably not designed to run at the temperatures a firearm can generate. High speed motor oils would be beter suited in those heat ranges.
 
Majic:

Not that I doubt any of the information the manufactor gave you, but the 42 fps velocity increase is really insignificant in any caliber. The bullet manufactor would be more interested in coatings for their bullet jackets before any bore treatment IMO.
Plus a bicycle lube is probably not designed to run at the temperatures a firearm can generate. High speed motor oils would be beter suited in those heat ranges.
Click to expand...

This is a fairly exotic "bicycle lube" and wasn't really originally designed for bikes. It was an industrial lube, and he manufactures and sells a whole line of lube products. He noted that many so-called gun lubes, like some Rem Oil I picked up, have additives that will leave deposit buildups.

I recently ran a bike chain on it for over 10,000 miles and used only about 2 oz. of the lube. He also says it's benign when used with carbon fiber, which is nice if I get a Glock or a Springfield XD. Worth a try, I guess. You haven't heard of this "Gunsight Academy?"
 
Gunsite? As in Col. Jeff Cooper? Umm, yeah, folks have heard of that outfit.

:D

It would sound like "Gunsight" over the telephone (you mentioned that the gentleman had told you this over the phone). — p.s., email sent
 
Sounds like a synthetic based oil product. A lot of industrial lubrication products have switched to synthetics, especially in high speed and high heat applications. Most usually come with a higher price tag, but their performance outweighs the cost factor. How about keeping us posted on it's performance. If it works every new trick is welcomed.
 
Kadet Kit from J&G Sales (mags)

You'll like the Kadet Kit. I think J&G sales is going to screw you out of the second .22 mag that normally comes with the kit though. I only got one when I bought my kit from them 2-3 years ago.
Click to expand...

They sent two, so didn't rip me off. One thing that concerns me, though, is that I could use a loader for the mags. I have a plastic loader for 9mm that looks like it could be modified by trimming the to (front) bar to the width of the center post so that the post (which presses on the round) fits through the smaller slot on the .22 mag. I'm a little concerned that this modification might effect the ability to use the same loader for the 9mm mags. Has anyone done this modification to the loader? Seems like it still ought to work with 9mms.
 
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