OP
OP
A good reason for revolver
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aaaaa
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Likewise a semi-auto. Here is where a BUG is needed and has to be accessible by either hand and with one in the chamber!
A Beretta Tomcat might be the easiest reload with a broken wrist. Too bad they don't make the Tomcat in a larger caliber, or a good metal gun of larger caliber and size.--9mm, 45 ACP . . .
trackskippy
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Close in, it seems the revolver people like to point out the autos can come out of battery and wont fire (at least until you pull back a little), but dont seem to understand that all it takes for a revolver to not work, is a simple hand wrapped around the cylinder and the gun wont fire.
Best not to let them get close if you can, either way.
Best not to let them get close if you can, either way.
Buzznrose
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If you want to make this story about carrying a revolver instead of a semiautomatic pistol, well, that’s your call. It certainly isn’t changing my thoughts on carrying a 15 round semi over a 6 round revolver.
I see zero instances where I will carry a revolver over a SA as a primary source of protection.
I see zero instances where I will carry a revolver over a SA as a primary source of protection.
unclenunzie
Contributing Member
Close in, it seems the revolver people like to point out the autos can come out of battery and wont fire (at least until you pull back a little), but dont seem to understand that all it takes for a revolver to not work, is a simple hand wrapped around the cylinder and the gun wont fire.
Best not to let them get close if you can, either way.
Twisting the hand opposite of cylinder rotation corrects this
.38 Special
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Despite being a lifelong revolver guy, I freely admit that reloading a revolver is a higher-level skill than is reloading an auto - especially so in a gunfight. Moreover, I'd much rather carry a spare magazine than a revolver speedloader - the latter is so bulky I suspect you might just as well carry a second revolver!
mcb
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We can argue all the edge cases all day long but:
- No one that has shot more than a handful of practical pistol matches or take a few advanced self-defense classes would think a revolver offers any meaningful technological advantage over a semi auto.
- Two shooters of equal skill at a practical pistol match; the one shooting the semi auto beats the revolver shooter an overwhelming amount of the time.
- For a given amount of time spent in training or practice the average shooter will achieve greater proficiency with a semiauto then the revolver. In this context we are talking about skills more advance than basic safe handling and marksmanship.
- Everything with a revolver takes a bit more practice and finesse to master than similar actions/skills with a semi auto.
- There is no measurable reliability difference between modern reputable brands of semi-autos or revolvers. Reliability is IMHO at best a secondary if not trinary selection criteria.
- Capacity is King and revolvers ain't got it.
I say this as someone that is a huge revolver fan and user but for most shooters with a self defense focus they would be better off with a modern semi-automatic than a revolver.
- No one that has shot more than a handful of practical pistol matches or take a few advanced self-defense classes would think a revolver offers any meaningful technological advantage over a semi auto.
- Two shooters of equal skill at a practical pistol match; the one shooting the semi auto beats the revolver shooter an overwhelming amount of the time.
- For a given amount of time spent in training or practice the average shooter will achieve greater proficiency with a semiauto then the revolver. In this context we are talking about skills more advance than basic safe handling and marksmanship.
- Everything with a revolver takes a bit more practice and finesse to master than similar actions/skills with a semi auto.
- There is no measurable reliability difference between modern reputable brands of semi-autos or revolvers. Reliability is IMHO at best a secondary if not trinary selection criteria.
- Capacity is King and revolvers ain't got it.
I say this as someone that is a huge revolver fan and user but for most shooters with a self defense focus they would be better off with a modern semi-automatic than a revolver.
OP
OP
Smaug
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Yep, or lucky that the one guy didn't kick the door as soon as it was unlatched.
As our man said: "It wasn't our day to die."
Luckily, we can learn from his experience.
OP
OP
Smaug
Member
Very fair and realistic.
Let me ask you this, though: if a person is more comfortable with a revolver than an auto, would that factor in?
In my case, I notice I'm roughly 20% more accurate with my LCR than my P365 at 7 yards. Does that make up for the other things? (capacity, faster & easier reloads, slimness)
The one fellow made a good point about a revolver malfunctioning just as easily as a pistol if the cylinder is grabbed. (at least in double action) How about firing from the hip, from inside a pocket, so that the revolver doesn't even need to be drawn and give the perp a chance to shank me?
Everyone I've ever been to the range with, myself included - forgets the safety on a Semi Auto at some point, or you miss it with your thumb, and the firearm doesn't go bang. You have to stop, be confused for a second, realize you're an idiot, and carry on. Someone good with a revolver would already have fired 3 or 4 cylinders, and be onto the next speed loader. So, it is all relative. The simplicity of a revolver, pull trigger, bang. For a lot of people, and I keep one as a truck gun sometimes, just cause I like it, a revolver is just an other version of a tool. One with a simpler manual of arms, that is harder to screw up under stress, or confusion, or panick, or pain. The double action trigger really has to be pulled intentionally, so - less risk of firing inadvertently due to stress, confusion, panick, pain, or any other crazy thing than can go down. I don't see a real advantage one way or the other for an average person, just be good with what you've got. Be safe.
.38 Special
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I think I'll take issue with some of this, in the friendliest kind of way.
I was competing in NRA Action during the "semi-auto takeover" and found that as people switched (and I stayed with my revolver) I still won and lost to the same people I'd been winning and losing against before. Granted, that game didn't require speed loads and long strings of shots - but then, with few exceptions, neither does self-defense.
The one "technology edge" offered by revolvers is simplicity. As I mentioned, I can easily teach someone to use a DA revolver, but an auto, with its hidden cartridges, arcane malfunction drills, and thicket of levers and switches, takes more effort.
Personally, I'm not going to argue for or against either of them. I just don't see an overwhelming case either way - but I will argue that in the overwhelming majority of documented self-defense shootings, either style would have been fine, and replacing one with the other would not have changed the outcome.
aaaaa
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Close in, it seems the revolver people like to point out the autos can come out of battery and wont fire (at least until you pull back a little), but dont seem to understand that all it takes for a revolver to not work, is a simple hand wrapped around the cylinder and the gun wont fire.
Best not to let them get close if you can, either way.
Yes and someone once pointed out that if a perp grabs your revolver cylinder, pull the trigger while giving a good twist of the wrist. Well that may work, but not if you switch off revolvers that rotate in opposite directions and ideally you want one where you would twist in towards your body center rather than away from it (much weaker twist).
Even with the correct direction of twist who knows if it really works? Depends how tightly the perp grips the cylinder. Oh, and longer guns give the perp more lever to twist the gun away to the side, negating any shoot-ability you may still retain.
Some semi-autos do not go out of battery or would be difficult to put out of battery, mainly those with fixed barrels above the slide, such as Seacamp and Tomcats. Well that gives you one shot at least, maybe more, depending.
Of course it is IMPOSSIBLE to put a Bond Arms Derringer out of battery!
.38 Special
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Very fair and realistic.
Let me ask you this, though: if a person is more comfortable with a revolver than an auto, would that factor in?
In my case, I notice I'm roughly 20% more accurate with my LCR than my P365 at 7 yards. Does that make up for the other things? (capacity, faster & easier reloads, slimness)
The one fellow made a good point about a revolver malfunctioning just as easily as a pistol if the cylinder is grabbed. (at least in double action) How about firing from the hip, from inside a pocket, so that the revolver doesn't even need to be drawn and give the perp a chance to shank me?
I strongly urge everyone to make a choice and then train! I really do believe that revolver vs. auto is a non-issue in the vast majority of cases. I am still keeping my revolver on my CCW and still intend to carry it on occasion, and freely admit that my reasons for switching to an auto (mass shooters with rifles, and most notably the 10 rounds at 40 yards episode at Greenwood Park Mall) are among the most unlikely scenarios to befall an armed citizen. I am glad to be more appropriately prepared for such things now, but there's no way I would argue that everybody else has to take the same steps! As far as I am concerned, folks should hash out their own needs and desires and then come up with their own solutions, and if that includes revolvers, then I have nothing bad to say about it.
aaaaa
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Carry both!
aaaaa
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The movies seem to show guys regularly carrying two revolvers, one for each hand and or as backup. Of course carrying two makes even more sense when they are single actions.
.38 Special
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I still get myself into a bit of trouble arguing that single action revolvers are fine for defense as well - at least if the fellow takes the considerable amount of time to really master them. I certainly would give odds on a high level "cowboy action" guy over some inner-city "gangbanger" who's gun handling expertise extends no further than taking selfies while waving a Glock around.
trackskippy
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Maybe, maybe not. All depends whos death grip prevails too.Twisting the hand opposite of cylinder rotation corrects this
If I was the one grabbing it, Id be doing my best to move into a position that would get it offline of my body at the same time, so even if it were to break my grip, it would hopefully not hit me, and I now have more leverage on the holder and can try and break a few things.
The first rule too of close-in fighting, control the weapon. If your finger is in the trigger, Im going to do my best to break it at the same time too, and you're going to help.
chaim
Member
There are a few workarounds for that. Mark the rounds that have been in the chamber so you don't re-chamber them multiple times. When you take one out, put it back in the box upside down and replace it. Either way, you get 20-25 days out of a typical box of JHP, but then, you should practice with your carry ammo from time to time (if you do both, 2 chamberings and then a third when you actually fire it isn't enough for dangerous over pressure situations, and you'll double that to 40-50 days until you need to fire off the ammo). The third option, get a quick access safe big enough for only one or two guns and put your loaded CCW into it at the end of the day. No worries about picking up a loaded gun from the safe and not realizing it is loaded because: 1) all guns are always to be considered loaded until you actually check them, 2) any gun you put in that safe, the assumption (and practice) would be that it is already loaded.
chaim
Member
Don't get me wrong, I love a revolver, but...
You can protect against this same error with a DAO, DA/SA with a decocker but no manual safety, or a striker fired pistol. That is my usual home defense and carry practice. I used to carry 1911s and set them up for home defense, but I don't want that one more thing that can go wrong (even though lots of training and practice can make that less likely). BTW, I also sometimes use revolvers for self defense.
aaaaa
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Maybe, maybe not. All depends whos death grip prevails too.
If I was the one grabbing it, Id be doing my best to move into a position that would get it offline of my body at the same time, so even if it were to break my grip, it would hopefully not hit me, and I now have more leverage on the holder and can try and break a few things.
The first rule too of close-in fighting, control the weapon. If your finger is in the trigger, Im going to do my best to break it at the same time too, and you're going to help.
Oh carp! None of this stuff is very pleasant at all. I think it might be easier for me to hire a bodyguard!
mcb
Member
I wrote the following for similar thread awhile ago. I think it bears repeating here in response to your comment about self defense not requiring a reload and thus revolvers should be as good as semi-autos. Accepting this as general truth that reloads are unlikely to be needed in a self defense situation I will offer the following data for consideration:
First, I understand it ain't real training but this example is about comparing the equipment not the training. The USPSA classifier stage 06-10 Speedy Steel VII (https://uspsa.org/viewer//06-10.pdf) is a six round classifier stage used in the USPSA national ranking system. As with all the classifiers it's shot by lots and lots of competitors always setup the exact same way. You start standing behind a barricade (2ft wide wall) with you hands on the wall and your gun loaded in your holster. On the start signal you draw and engage 6 pieces of steel as fast as you can from around the barricade. There is no movement and no reloads required for the stage. This stage is about as equipment agnostic as you can make one in this sport. If both the revolvers and the semi-autos where comparable, we would expect the score required to make Grand Master (or any of the classifications levels) on the stage to be roughly the same across divisions. The Grand Master score is set by taking the average of the best shooters (mostly Grand Masters) the first time the stage is shot at a National match or similar Area match. This is not an artificial number but one based on how well the best of the best shoot the stage.
-GM minimum Hit-Factor in Revolver is 7.70 HF or roughly 3.9 seconds (Revolver, usually a moonclip fed 6 or 8 shot N-frame)
-GM minimum Hit-Factor for Single Stack is 8.97 HF or roughly 3.3 seconds (Single Stack, your classic1911 is the only thing allowed in this division)
-GM minimum Hit-Factor for Production is 9.42 HF or roughly 3.2 seconds (Production, typically fairly stock Glock, XD, M&P compete is this division)
-GM minimum Hit-Factor for Open is 10.36 HF or roughly 2.9 seconds (Open, your ultra-space-blaster, highly modified double stack 1911/CZ with compensators and red-dot optics.)
I expect similar results on the half dozen or so other 6 rd classifier the sports uses. In short even the best of the best can't run the revolver as fast as they can the semi autos. This stage has no movement, no reloads, this is simply the time to draw (from a competition holster) and shoot six shots at 3 Pepper-Poppers and 3 Mini-Poppers at 36 feet.
Speedo66
Member
OP: you cite a particular set of circumstances that will certainly not apply to every case of revolver vs. semi-auto, then use that criteria for making a case for revolvers.
To me, does not compute. While I enjoy revolvers, I was very happy when we transitioned and I went from a 5 shot S&W revolver to an 11 shot Glock.
To me, does not compute. While I enjoy revolvers, I was very happy when we transitioned and I went from a 5 shot S&W revolver to an 11 shot Glock.
FL-NC
Member
My thoughts? Use a good auto and keep it fully loaded. That means 1 in the chamber. Not doing this to me is foolish for reasons just like this story- you may forget to finish loading your gun in the moment, or be injured, or otherwise not have both hands available to make this happen. I doubt if anyone leaves chambers empty on wheelguns, so if someone is uncomfortable or whatever keeping an auto fully loaded VS a dead man's gun, then that person should train and get comfortable. Also, some autos are just more reliable/better than others. Comparing something like a boringly reliable Glock (or many other brands of modern pistols) to some piece of trash auto made in S. Florida like a FIE that retailed for $50 new isn't a coherent argument. In that case, I would prefer the revolver to the POS auto. As far as the dog, having any dog is a big responsibility that isn't for everyone. I would also check my insurance terms regarding breeds that my policy may "look down on" regarding liability.
trackskippy
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