And yet, firearms accident rates have steadily declined, even with those "riskier" mechanisms. https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/fatal-firearms-accident-rate-reaches-record-low/ Makes you wonder if perhaps they're not actually "riskier" at all.
A good reason for revolver
- Thread starter Smaug
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My thoughts are that this story illustrates the importance of having a quality weapon, keeping it loaded, getting good training with it and practicing what you learned in that training.
Not true for Florida at all. If the police did that, he was very lucky. The DA could certainly make his life hell if they chose to.
I don't understand the "laid out a bunch of guns on top of the car" in the driveway. If the homeowner had looked, none of this would have taken place since he should have never opened the door, like any sensible person.
Howland937
Member
I gave the benefit of the doubt that it was dark out or the car was somehow obscured and the guns couldn't be seen...but based on other details, it wouldn't be surprising to find out neither were the case. If it were actually dark out, the homeowner would have been better served with a bright flashlight than an unloaded weapon.
That may create more risk than it mitigates, if any.
That is a vey poor assumption.
If you believe that one's reluctance to be photographed would justify the presentation of a deadly weapon, you should avail yourself of some education on the subject.
aaaaa
Member
Not if it has any chance of firing. A modern DA revolver with transfer bar or enclosed hammer is perfectly safe provided the trigger is covered with something hard enough to prevent it being actuated. A modern SA revolver with transfer bar is okay to carry with one chambered under the hammer and even with the trigger exposed provided it is NOT cocked. The chance of a branch in the woods both cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger is about zero and I would say if it happens and you get killed by it, perhaps it was your time to go. We take necessary and reasonable precautions and leave the rest to God. When He is ready to take you, there is nothing you can do about it.
westernrover
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This was in response to Slamfire's post about "normalization of deviance." This topic of firearm safety is of interest to me. The simplicity and safety of the double-action revolver's manual of arms is one of the reasons I chose it.
I think it's fair to say the single-action automatic is not safe to carry loaded without some kind of safety mechanism. There's over a hundred years of debate about empty-chamber, loaded-chamber, half-cock, grip safety, cocked-and-locked and the manual of arms to manipulate these things. I think condition 1 is prevailing in the present day. The man in the OP's story was not practicing this and was unprepared. There's many other examples of an unloaded chamber failing someone. On the other hand, carrying cock-and-locked has its own set of demands that must be met and can and have been failed. The ease of learning the consistent and light single-action trigger is said to be one advantage.
The invention of the DA/SA automatic's mechanism was no doubt an attempt to alleviate some of the demands of the SA automatic's manual of arms. Carrying a loaded but uncocked pistol that can be fired with a double-action trigger does alleviate the demand to manipulate a safety -- at least until the pistol has been fired or the slide racked to cock the hammer. Then we need to either engage a safety or decock it and failing to do so could result in holstering a gun in an unsafe condition. The inconsistency of the DA/SA trigger is sometimes cited as a disadvantage.
The striker-fired action provides a single type of trigger actuation, is often offered with no manual safety to manipulate, and yet the design of the trigger pull seems to have been getting progressively shorter and lighter. It's now common for factory triggers to be lighter than the original 1911 single-action triggers. I think it's fair to say that most of them are around 5 pounds, but some have been produced at less than 4 pounds. As far as I can tell, the main difference is the striker pistol's additional trigger pull length. I am not personally alarmed at this. I just don't think I understand it. I know that some police departments are apparently concerned with it and they add 3 to 5 pounds of trigger weight to their issue guns. Are the factory triggers unsafe or are these just the knee-jerk reactions of liberal-run big-city bureaucracies? It seems to me that if the factory triggers were exceptionally dangerous, we would see the results trending. While bearcreek's citation concerning fatal accidents doesn't address all the possible incidents of unintentional discharge, I still haven't seen evidence of a a major problem with unintended discharges as these pistols have undergone widespread adoption over the last few decades. Is the problem being hidden or masked or does it just not exist? Like I wrote, I just don't understand it myself.
The double-action only manual of arms provides a safe condition of carry even with less than perfect holster and cover garment conditions, and a consistent trigger actuation. In the case of the revolver, it also forgoes the need to rack slides against heavy springs or perform non-diagnostic linear malfunction drills (tap-racks and other jam clearances that require magazine extraction). The challenge of it is the demand for long, heavy double-action trigger control. The OP cites a case story where a man disabled by an injury wasn't able to rack a slide, but I can imagine an injury that prevents a person from pulling a heavy double action trigger -- especially those j frames. My wife can't pull a j-frame trigger even without an injury. I've suffered hand injuries (dog bites) that left me temporarily (for about 15 minutes) with no grasp strength in my fingers. I doubt I could have pulled a double-action trigger, and I couldn't have racked a slide with my hands, but possibly by another means like my leg or against an object like a doorframe.
I recognized the demand from the revolver to learn good double-action trigger control and determined to meet that. I think after a few years of training and practice that I've demonstrated by objective criteria evaluated by independent experts that I've done that. What I'm trying to say is that I'm competent with a double-action trigger and that I've not just convinced myself of this, but demonstrated it to trainers and against competition that could tell me if I had just convinced myself against all objective evidence. I think it involves a certain amount of ability or talent. For example, I don't think my wife could ever attain the competence with a double-action trigger that I have. With a lot of training she could get better than she is now, but it's just not for her. In a similar way, carrying a striker-action pistol is just not for me. I'm sure with the right holster, due vigilance, and training, I could safely carry a single-action cocked-and-locked but it doesn't play to my advantages. I don't have a handicap with trigger control and the tradeoffs to get a short, light trigger aren't worth it to me. If I had a different set of abilities and training in technique wasn't getting the result I wanted, I would look at other action types, strikers, single actions, da/sa, EZ, and finding one that worked for me and learn the needed manual of arms.
OP
OP
Smaug
Member
Well, they did, so maybe it was a choice by the police to do The Right Thing (since he likely saved police lives) instead of throwing the book at him.
It was dark out and he'd covered them with a blanket. I assume our man was looking at the guy at his door, not too much at his car.
As for your "like any sensible person" comment, please step back and think about it a bit. If if you live in a remote place in a friendly part of the country and someone knocks on your door saying he ran out of gas and could you help him, that is not too suspicious. Or at least it wasn't in the past. People were more friendly & honest. A decent person wants to help another person in need. These days? I dunno.
How about when you see someone broken down at the side of the road? Same thing; in the past, someone would stop to help or at least make a phone call in case the guy's phone was dead or he had no signal. Or even lend the use of a CB. Nowadays, in my area, we think it's too risky and just keep driving. Or "I need to be somewhere, sorry bud." Hope a cop stops by to help or that poor guy will starve to death, stranded in the middle of the expressway. (there are expressways here that never have little enough traffic to get out of the middle on foot)
Thinking about it from this point of view, if I were not very cautious from reading these stories, I would think about opening the door after I sized the guy up, maybe with a gun in a hand behind my back. At night? Much lower chance, I'd probably offer to call the police. I guess it would be very suspicious at my house, since there's a gas station walking distance. I could shout directions to the gas station through the door.
The police are not in the loop on charging decisions.
The gun would not stop gunfire.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Thanks for the opinion. I will do things my way. You do them yours.
People don’t know I am armed when I go to the door.
If I don’t recognize the person I snap a photo. They don’t like it? Tough. I am installing an electronic doorbell with a camera. This will solve many issues.
Also, I am not stupid. I wouldn’t produce a weapon unless there’s a viable threat.
I could have been clearer in my first post.
bdickens
Member
If you're too scared to carry a loaded pistol then you ought not to be carrying one at all. Thinking you are armed when you are not could be even more dangerous.
Not only are you making unwarranted assumptions that border on paranoia, you just may give that person legal justification to use deadly force against you. You really need some education.
Excellent idea.
There are better choices than a "doorbell camera" out there.
Wireless, no cloud storage, no monthly fee, all vids stored in a base unit accessible via your phone.
Check it out:
Amazon.com : eufy Security, eufyCam 2C 2-Cam Kit, Security Camera Outdoor, Wireless Home Security System with 180-Day Battery Life, HomeKit Compatibility, 1080p HD, IP67, Night Vision, No Monthly Fee : Electronics
Had mine for over a year, no drama, read the reviews, look on Utube for more reviews.
jmo,
.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Thank you. That is a good idea. I am currently renting and planning to buy a home before next summer. I will definitely look at this for my new home.
Yes, you could buy it now, use it, and take it with you when you move.
jmo,
I am always skeptical about information gathered and collected to prove the points of fan boys and ideologues. However, do notice the chart is about fatal firearm accidents. Emergency room procedures and emergency services responses might have improved in the period. It is well known that gun shot victims have to be stabilized quickly, before they bleed out, the first ten minutes are the platinum minutes.
I lived in the pre cell phone world. To call emergency responders you had to find a phone. And you did not have google maps to inform the dispatcher just where you were. I know the younger group cannot imagine a world, or living, without their cell phones. And they also project today's technology back into the past. The Kaiser did not have a cell phone, and neither was Alexander the Great filmed in black and white.
With 50 shot dead every weekend in Chicago, who is really counting the accidents anyway? They can't keep track of the murders.
Worth reading if you plan to shoot yourself.
First aid for a gunshot wound
https://www.healthline.com/health/gunshot-wound#first-aid
Shootings: What EMS Providers Need to Know
https://www.hmpgloballearningnetwor...319706/shootings-what-ems-providers-need-know
theotherwaldo
Member
First, I never answer the door before I check the cameras.
Second, my wireless doorbell button is beside my closed gate, attached to my 'Beware of Dog' sign.
Third, my PA system allows me to ask any visitor what it is that they need.
Fourth, any repeating hand gun can be caused to malfunction by gripping the cylinder or slide firmly, pushing it away from you and twisting it so that the weapon is no longer pointing at you. In fact, if done briskly enough, the weapon is often pointing at the assailant (yes, I've done it - once).
--And my dog isn't trained to bite. Instead, he slams himself into the knees of any intruder - hard. I didn't teach him to do this, it's just something that he does.
Second, my wireless doorbell button is beside my closed gate, attached to my 'Beware of Dog' sign.
Third, my PA system allows me to ask any visitor what it is that they need.
Fourth, any repeating hand gun can be caused to malfunction by gripping the cylinder or slide firmly, pushing it away from you and twisting it so that the weapon is no longer pointing at you. In fact, if done briskly enough, the weapon is often pointing at the assailant (yes, I've done it - once).
--And my dog isn't trained to bite. Instead, he slams himself into the knees of any intruder - hard. I didn't teach him to do this, it's just something that he does.
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Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I wasn’t going to respond to this but I just have to.
You are making the unwarranted assumptions. I guess you didn’t read my follow up post where I said I could have been clearer in my prior post. Probably because, I assume, you needed to get in here and put me in my place to massage your own ego. You don’t know me and you don’t know anything about me, my history or experiences. You assume I walk to my door brandishing a gun and snapping photos like some crazy man.
Perhaps you need some education. Education on how to talk to people online without coming across like a pompous a**.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I got a chance to go look at the link you provided. That looks great and it’s portable. Thank you.
I would not be picking a general purpose tool like a firearm because in a very specific case it might be a little better than a different style of tool. You can likely come up with a situation where a revolver is a horrid choice.
Post #92 is excellent.
One should add that putting oneself iwithn bad-breath distance of a potential criminal attacker is a terrible tactic, partly because it is unrealistic to believe that handgun wounding would prove sufficiently effective, and partly because if exposes the defender to the risk of being shot. The Ayoob piece on this is excellent advice.
One should add that putting oneself iwithn bad-breath distance of a potential criminal attacker is a terrible tactic, partly because it is unrealistic to believe that handgun wounding would prove sufficiently effective, and partly because if exposes the defender to the risk of being shot. The Ayoob piece on this is excellent advice.
This past spring, I was 1500 miles from home and the front door camera went off on my phone.
I opened the camera app on my phone and had the choice to view the recordings or the camera live.
I opened the camera live and saw my wife bent over watering some potted flowers, so I touched the talk button and said something to her.
She damn near jumped out of her skin...
I have had people walking up towards my front door, see the camera, and cover their face/ turn/ walk away.
But of course, I already had pics of them.
Fun times.
jmo,
Edit: OP: sorry for extending the drift, I'm done with it.
.
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did you read that on the internet somewhere? sounds like a canned response like a couple generic bullet points.
unclenunzie
Contributing Member
Let me be the first to say that while good Q & A has been posted, we've gone off the rails a little....
aaaaa
Member
I especially like the knee-slamming dog part.
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