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A New American Civil War - West Vs. East?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by shooterx10, Jul 18, 2003.

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  1. shooterx10

    shooterx10 Member

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    A New American Civil War - West Vs. East?
    By Sheriff Mike Cook

    I'm starting to get worried. It seems to me that everything I read in the news anymore is slanted to the liberal side of things. They are really starting to work hard to turn the tide in the 2004 election. I believe the liberals know that if they don't gain ground on this election the movements they have championed will be set back for a long time. For conservative people like me this is good, however I believe we are about to see all stops pulled out and some of the dirtiest campaigning you have ever witnessed coming down the pike.

    The liberal main stream media will be putting out about as much false and misleading information as they can. You see the truth doesn't matter to them if they can get the emotional response they want. An example would be the attack on so called assault weapons by CNN. There was nothing in that report that was even remotely close to the truth. The whole thing was set up to make the people on the line panic for no good reason at all. How many times will they shoot movies or documentaries about the school shooting at Columbine. We have lived through that crime and most everyone understands that two young males took it upon themselves to shoot up their school. That's right, they did it, and no weapon they used had any responsibility for doing it. The fact was they broke the law to get the weapons and no laws would have prevented them from this act. So demonizing the gun and saying that it could be controlled and would have stopped this attack is like saying that we as humans don't need food to live because some are obese.

    So stand by to read through the news and media attacks that are about to fall around us. None of it will help you make good and informed decisions this coming election.

    Now, I'm just as worried when I read the more conservative news papers and web sites. I think if things go bad in 2004 we will see another civil war in America. This time it may be West Vs East. The reason is the damage that can be done to the West because of so much government controlled land. The enviros have forced the government to make many poor choices in over seeing this land. The people who live in the West have been damaged to the point that it is even affecting private property. That was one reason we started this nation of ours was for private property rights. Those rights and the fight for private property have been going on from the very beginning. This is especially true in the West.

    In my many years in law enforcement I have witnessed untold fights over property lines and other property issues. It spans the gamut from homicide to fist fights. People take this as serious as they do anything that affects them. I have also helped friends who were harassed by a bad neighbor called the government. All because of the government's attempt to take property that cannot legally or constitutionally be under their control. The government is considered the worst neighbor you can have in the West, with good cause. I do know that with all the land use laws that have been put in place over the last few years, we the people are no longer in control of our property. These laws also allow others to harass property owners and they can do it legally through the government and courts. This can only lead to frustration, which leads to violence.

    Now we have two issues that affect many people all at once. One is the use of "government land" for grazing and other things like logging and recreational uses. Then the topper to it all is the battle over something that is very precious to all humanity, water. This may be the straw that broke the camels back in this pending war between the states. The government wants to control it, and the enviro types want to force the government not let anyone use it. They are using every un-Constitutional law they have shoved down our throat to stop this use. When that fails they go to the court system until they find a judge who agrees with them.

    Now you see why I'm worried. I believe we are headed for one big blood bath in this nation. One that may divide this nation and cause harm that will never be repaired just like the last civil war. I do know that our enemies are sitting back licking their chops, just waiting for this to happen. Our only chance is to elect people to office who will return our rights and freedoms to us and down size government. If this doesn't happen and we go the other way it will be war like we have never seen before. I pray to God that doesn't happen.

    God Bless America.
    God Bless our troops, still in harms way.

    Michael E. Cook, Coos County Sheriff, Retired.

    Here is the link.
     
  2. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    Hey, California wants to break off from the Union, more power to it.

    Get the hell out of here.
     
  3. 4v50 Gary

    4v50 Gary Moderator Staff Member

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    Mike! I'm a Californian and if that's the way you feel, well, O.K., to **** with California. I'm fed up. :mad: I can't wait to retire and move out of here. This state sucks and the only good thing is the weather (very mild winters and summers aren't like the East Coast).

    On the issue of succession, I hate to see another Civil War. The first one was bad enough. If anything tears the West apart, it'll be the fight for water. Salmon v. growing population or the needs of farmers.

    What the good sheriff says is right. We need to scale back gubmint and make people more responsible for themselves and their own actions. Want government off your back? Don't ask for help.
     
  4. SodaPop

    SodaPop member

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    All hell will break loose in this country when the next Democrat or Republican picks a Supreme court justice.
     
  5. .45Ruger

    .45Ruger Member

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    An East vs. West civil war? I don't know. The water question is a very serious one indeed. I live in Phoenix which is the fastest growing metro area in the nation. Right now we are also into the worst drought in over a century with no relief in sight. The question becomes, where do we get water for all of these people. Part of the problem lies with inefficient uses of water. It would amaze you how many yahoos move to Arizona from back East and have to have their lush grass lawn here. There are also golf courses galore that suck up untold amounts of water. I don't think a civil war will result from all of this but I do think that when people start having to face water rationing and $200 a month for water instead of the $20 we pay now it may discourage some from moving here.
     
  6. priv8ter

    priv8ter Member

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    Golf courses!

    .45ruger, you made a great point about golf courses. Now it's easy for me to slam them, because I'm, not a golfer, but it makes me kind of angry!.

    There is this one in South Eastern Washington in a resort called Desert Aire. While like the name says, it is located in a desert. Nothing but sage and scrub brush and dirt for a hunder miles...but, then, you have this one oasis of lush green grass...just for the golfers.

    I'm not an environmental engineer but I would love to see some numbers on how many acres of wheat could be grown, or how many showers could be taken with all the water it takes to keep that course looking green in the middle of August in the desert.
     
  7. GinSlinger

    GinSlinger Member

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    Just a quick question, some golf coasts use "grey" water for irrigation, do any of these courses in question use such?

    I don't think it will be EvsW, rather, rural vs urban. It would be interesting if a state could vote out major metropolatin areas. Without seeing the numbers I would surmise that population centers are a huge drain on rural areas in terms of taxes paid to returns from government.

    GinSlinger
     
  8. bogie

    bogie Member

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    IMHO a civil war isn't likely to be east v. west...

    More likely we'll see a "rural areas" v. "urban areas."

    And how long are Chicago, St. Louis, etc., much less NYC and LA, going to last if the farmers quit sending 'em food?
     
  9. Baba Louie

    Baba Louie Member

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    GinSlinger and Bogie are right.

    Look at the last Presidential Map for the borders (Red vs. Blue). The old city mouse vs. country mouse paradigm.

    Key control elements are water, electricity and tax base. Its far easier to control populace within defined city boundaries and electrical grids.

    Pretty soon, everyone will realize they're on the gov't dole and only a very few individuals left to shout out "Give me liberty or give me"... will be that much easier to identify, isolate and re-educate... unless they become a real PITA to those in power.

    Oh, I forgot money. The more you have, the easier life will be, as long as you don't create and control a multi-billion dollar industry without giving some concessions to the elected and appointed controllers.

    Probably need some form of regional control as well and I'm sure that Uncle Sam and the various Governors have those things decided already with plans drawn up and implementation only a phone call or two away.

    ???What tin-foil hat???

    Adios
     
  10. Waitone

    Waitone Member

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    SodaPop has it right. The Third Civil war will start with the nomination of the next supreme court justice. Too much is riding for both political ideologies on the next selection. It will most decidedly be a vigorous political debate and nothing more.

    The west is certainly primed for a revolt of some kind. Water as an issue has historically been a bone of contention. Mix water up with environmentalism and UN initiative on sustainable growth and you have trouble. Radical environmentalists are intent on returning areas of the US (mostly in the west) to pre-Christopher Columbus pristine condition. That means voluntary and involuntary migration of humans to human game preserves. Water is the perfect means of causing migration. Klamuth Basin is the prototype environmental initiative. Withhold water, destroy farming, destroy land value, offer to purchase at greatly reduced price, move inhabitants off land, set land aside. . . . .

    Yea, it'll start in the west most likely over water.
     
  11. 2dogs

    2dogs Member

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    however I believe we are about to see all stops pulled out and some of the dirtiest campaigning you have ever witnessed coming down the pike.

    This has already started, the "liberals" are getting the propaganda machine running on assault weapons, Iraq, WMD etc.

    If you've been following the news this week concerning Bush's "16 words" it's been like freakin' feeding time in the pirhanna tank- and the media is working OT to push the line.

    After 8 years of Clinton, it is amazing to watch the out right lies and underhandedness Democrats will use to keep/regain power.

    I agree with you other folks re urban vs rural- and due to the numbers of urban voters eventually the country will be lost (except for people holed up on their own). It only takes one large city in each state to sink it.

    "Golf- a good walk ruined."
    :neener:
     
  12. Felonious Monk

    Felonious Monk Member

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    All of you have a piece of the puzzle right.

    I believe what you are seeing is best represented by the map after the 2000 elections. Two coastal stripes of liberalism, primarily from DC up the East Coast, and the People's Republic of **********.

    East AND West coast Urban/suburban, upwardly mobile politically correct Liberals, seeking not (as they claim) to celebrate diversity, but to grind us all into one gray mass of uniformity...all of us living like the Euro-trash, with cradle-to-grave Nanny-state support.

    vs.

    Heartland America with their "antiquated, colloquial values" of God, Family, and Country. Freedom, individualism, equality of opportunity, honor, duty, and LIMITED government.

    That, to me, is where the lines are being drawn.
     
  13. JDSlack

    JDSlack Member

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    Saw this somewhere else...might work.
     

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  14. Mike Irwin

    Mike Irwin Member

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    Back in the 1930s, when the Colorado River was being dammed, IIRC Arizona called up the state's National Guard units over the water issue.
     
  15. Sam Adams

    Sam Adams Member

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    I agree with those who think that the real fight is between rural and urban areas. Rural folks tend to have more traditional values and actually believe that the Constitution means something, whereas city folk (esp. on the coasts) tend to be much more liberal (which is to say, in favor of big government handouts) and to think that the limitations in the Constitution are more a challenge to be gotten around than a thing that protects all of us from those who want to exercise power.

    I personally think that the water issue isn't going to be the spark. It will be guns, because it will be easier for a Democrapic administration to assert control that way than over water or any other issue. The Patriot Act has already given any would-be tyrant the tools necessary to assert control. A simple Executive Order by President Hitlery will make any of us that have ever expressed an anti-government viewpoint with regard to guns into "terrorists." This will occur after another Columbine type of event, and will be the excuse for AG Schumer to send BATFE goon squads around to collect guns and kill anyone who insists on resisting ("resisting" being defined as looking the BATF'ker ransacking your house in the eye).

    Once they get the guns, they can do what they want regarding water or anything else.
     
  16. Moparmike

    Moparmike Member

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    If it were to happen like that, what role would the US military play?
    Where would YOU go if a situation like we are describing (W vs E, Rural vs Urbanite) were to happen and then SHTF?
    Is this something we should actually prepare for, or just wait to be drafted?

    I live in the city (a small one) but I could easily find a farm or something as the city is surrounded by small farm towns in multiple states for 800 miles in all directions.
     
  17. amprecon

    amprecon Member

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    I'm not so sure the lines will be so vividly divided, rural vs urban. I think the lines will be drawn at the ideological level. I have personally divided ideologies into a couple of groups.

    1) Those which are conservative which have strong moral values, believe in God and believe that a persons' rights are merely defined in the Constitution not granted. They believe in hard work and individualism and usually don't expect much as far as what is supposedly owed them by others or hand-outs or welfare from any person. Lastly they have a conscience to deal with.

    2) Those which are liberal usually believe in evolution, that the Constitution is an outdated document which doesn't apply to today's modern society. They believe that because they are Americans and that there's so many rich people in this country, that the rich are indebted to them for their prosperity. They believe that the rich have trampled over the common person to attain it and some of it is owed back. The Democrats/liberals feed this ideology by promising more welfare at the expense of the rich as long as they are voted for.
    They also believe that they should not be held accountable for their actions and that doing "wrong" is a relative term not a moral one. They believe there are reasons for why they acted wrongly and that it is societies fault that they are who they are.
    They believe in freedom to do what they want to do but to limit or ban freedoms they don't believe in. These people are the reason we have laws because they have no Christian beliefs and think laws were made by angry men that don't know how to have fun and whose only purpose in life is to harass them. They have little conscience to deal with and cannot define nor recognize morality.

    I am an observant person, I have spent 10 years in the Navy and have been around the world. I have seen and interacted with many people and from my observations, they can be decisively divided into these two groups.

    The second group wishes to impose their idea of society upon the rest of the country, they have found that their ideology is not as popular as they thought but if they can only impose it upon everyone, they will eventually "see the light" and comply willingly. They pride themselves on being the center of attention and for taking credit for their idea for new world order. However they are unwilling to make personal sacrifices to attain their goals. When they don't get their way or when their idea goes bad they are quick to point out that the cause for the failure is the old order (conservativism) and why everyone should embrace their way of thinking to change it. They appear to have realized that they can circumvent the Constitutional boundaries and the legislative branch via the judicial avenue since those that can make judicial law are appointed by the few not elected by the many.

    Apparently the judgeships of this country have taken it upon themselves to ignore existing law and create their own laws which they believe would better benefit society as they see fit.

    The first group is happy to live within the bounds of their beliefs and if others are interested or envy their success will, upon request, offer their recipes for their success. They spend their time achieving their personal goals with the belief that things will remain the same because that is what the Constitution says, so they don't pay the proper amount of attention to the political scene as they should. It is when they discover a need in their pursuit of their goal, such as a new tractor or new gun or new airplane and find that things aren't the same, that the tax rate has now made the acquisition unattainable, that they realize that things haven't remained the same. There are now people who are out to destroy their societal security blanket (the Constitution) and, as it is almost too late, have to put their goals aside to stem the tide of Consitutional erosion to restore the law which they felt so previously secure in. It is an uphill battle at this point.

    These two groups of people are interdispursed throughout the country, rural, urban, isolated, there are no definitive physical lines, just ideals. It is when one group combines to create an identifiable force to oppose the other, where the lines will be drawn.
     
  18. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    It will start in California and it won't be about water.

    It will be about the Productive Class finally getting the picture
    that their rights, treasure, property, and present and future
    freedoms are being traded off, without representation, for
    votes, and for power, and for control. Traded off to the Welfare Class.
    Right now half the taxpayers pay 96 per cent of the taxes in this
    fair Republic; ten per cent pay 70 per cent. Is that "progressive"
    enough for ya? There will be a Take Back America movement--and, yes,
    illegal immigration will start to become a major divisive issue
    as people realize that legal citizenship and sovereignty are rapidly
    becoming obsolete concepts. What will be the flashpoint? Maybe
    the pols stepping over the line and integrating our Social Security
    system with Mexico, handing U.S. taxpayers a yearly bill of a couple
    hundred billion dollares a year? Maybe a high court effectively abolishing
    the last privileges of citizenship? Maybe it will just be that one
    day enough people will have had it with an oligarchy of blackrobes
    after another ruling that drives a harpoon into primal values, telling
    Joe Q. Citizen that he has no real right to parent his own children or
    that he is obligated to pay for sex-change operations for convicted
    murderers?

    The Big Question will be, as always, Which Side will the Military
    Come Down On?
     
  19. PATH

    PATH Member

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    Let us hope that civil war never happens. If it does I am with the rurals against the city folks. I am with the consevatives as opposed to the liberals. The Constitution as opposed to the U.N. Charter and the communist manifesto.

    We shall see!
     
  20. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    Nope ... no civil war.


    Americans are sheep ... those that loose politicaly won't take up arms, they'll just shut up and fade away.

    There will be no SHTF, no rebellion, no "Second Revolution", at best there will be a couple of riots and maybe another Waco or two ... we'll all just wake up some day in a Gulag called the United States of America and there won't be a damn thing we can do about it (guns or not).


    we're f***ed ... sorry to be a wet blanket

    :banghead:
     
  21. only1asterisk

    only1asterisk member

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    As much as I hate it, Zundfolge has it right. Most of us will go without a fight; the rest will die alone. There will be no war or resistance, just an end to a way of life. No one will care; the media will proclaim us racist, sexist, anarchist or worse, religious and enemies of order, social justice, NAMBLA, the enviroment, children, elderly and puppies. Our neighbors will be on TV, telling the world that never would have guessed that about us, and then everyone will forget.

    But don't worry friends; after they rid themselves of us, they will not last long. It is not we that need them, but they that need us.


    David
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2003
  22. Hal

    Hal Member

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    Pssst! I think the last 2 guys have it right,,,but don't let on just yet
     
  23. AZLibertarian

    AZLibertarian Member

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    4v50 Gary
    Gary, I've got to disagree. Our "First Civil War" ended quite nicely with the American Colonial rebels expelling the British Red Coats. IMO, our "Second Civil War" never needed to be fought, but that's another thread entirely.

    However, as to the general thrust of this thread, I've said for a number of years that I won't be surprized that another civil war is on the horizon. As many of you have recognized, it may begin over land or water rights. Many in the east do not recognize the level of frustration that today exists in the west over the restrictions on how we live.

    I also wouldn't be surprised if the spark comes from gun rights, tax policy, the size and impact of our big government, or some moral question such as what to do about abortion, or euthanizing the elderly or sick.

    But as to "sheeple", I have to say that I believe that irresponsible government actions (Ruby Ridge, Waco, etc), create as many citizens willing to take action to oppose future infringements, as convincing sheeple to 'go along to get along'.
     
  24. longeyes

    longeyes member

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    I refuse to have my weekend ruined by naysayers.:)

    The Right in America has so far been anything but an activist force.
    They are out there on talk radio and on the Internet. But not in
    the streets. Yet. Granted, people want to be left alone, go about
    their own business. But it's become pretty clear that these same
    people are NOT going to be able to get through the remainder of their
    lives Being Left Alone. When they recognize, and I still believe
    Something Big will open their eyes, that the America they thought their
    kids would have is crumbling away at an ever more rapid rate every year
    we are going to see things we thought we would never see. That's my
    belief, anyway. I think the current crop of pols are not only capable
    of igniting mass protest but probably unconsciously needful of doing so.
    As one pundit has observed, a lot of what we are seeing these days isn't
    so much the expression of a political philosophy but rather of a "mental
    disorder." The buttons are going to get pushed. What happens will be
    "interesting," in the Chinese sense, to watch. And participate in.

    Don't worry, you'll all get a chance.
     
  25. Byron Quick

    Byron Quick Moderator In Memoriam

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    You live in a desert and pay $20 a month for water? I pay more than that in eastern central Georgia.


    The fight over water in the Southwest will be between the states there...it's not a east vs. west issue unless you're defining east as the federal government.

    By the same token, I doubt many westerners are concerned with the dispute over water between Alabama, Georgia, and Florida...did you even know there was such a dispute? Do you care? Ready to fight about it?

    By the same token, the dispute over water in the Colorado River doesn't get me all het up. Whichever way it goes will not affect my water supply by one drop. For that matter it won't affect anyone within over a thousand miles from here. Unless, of course, the western states try to get the federal government to pay the bill for them deciding to try to build cities in deserts...might be willing to fight about that.
     
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