A note on dogs

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mbt2001

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MODS – With the prevalence of “get a dog” comments in S&T for HD I think the below is relevant. Please don’t delete or lock it out of hand, the information (I would hope) will help future folks make smarter choices.

I am sure that we have all noticed a lot of remarks lately about getting a dog as a home security device. The people that live behind me apparently read one of the posts of "get a dog" and got one. Now the pit bull is chained up outside where it is most likely going to live out its life. Beyond being a nuisance (whining, whimpering, barking 24/7) it is never really going to fulfill its function because it hasn't "bonded" with its family, established his home base and hasn't been socialized at all. The dog is going to be one of the dogs that you read about 4 years from now that breaks loose and eats someone.

A few facts for you:

1. 90% of dogs need to be inside with the family (unless it is a bona fide hunting dog or herding dog). Historically most dogs have worked and lived side by side with mankind and that is where the breeds come from. It is especially true for the Molosser breeds. (http://www.moloss.com/001/ptxt/breed.html)

2. ALL DOGS need to know sit / down / stay / heel, if they do it sometimes, that isn't good enough.

3. Don't let them anywhere as a puppy that you do not want them to go as an adult

4. MOST owners think that because there dog is not aggressive, it is useless. It is unlikely that you will ever see the protective side of your dog.

5. Please, do not TRAIN your dog to be aggressive. If you want that in your dog there are professionals who can do it. Something to consider is Watch Dog / Alarm Dog training, takes a weekend and they train the dog to bark when they see people outside.

6. In most breeds the protective instinct doesn’t develop until 10 or so months old. Until that time they need to be sheltered / handled. If you have “scared” or “pranked” your dog, you have most likely ruined his confidence. Prank your dog AFTER he is 1 year old or older.

7. Please don’t get an esoteric breed and expect it to have a good ending. Some friends of ours got an Argentinean mastiff and it bit one of their kids and some of her friends. No surprise to me. I told my wife it would happen. Simple case of not doing their research beforehand, but therein lies the problem with obscure breeds. They might be underbred or mixed or (more likely) a horrible choice but because there isn’t a ton of resources out there on them, how can you reaearch? Goldens, GSD, Labs, Dobermans and others have a breed standard and years of creating and reinforcing that standard to cultivate a general knowledge of which breed will do what in which scenario. A busy house with strangers and kids isn’t the best place for a Cane Corso.
 
Mostly good advice. I would point out a few additional things.

1. There generally are no "bad" dogs. Virtual all dog problems are really problems created by human beings.

2. Dogs do not do well without an appropriate level of supervision. What constitutes an appropriate level of supervision varies from dog to dog and breed to breed. If the dog is not behaving well, it is virtually always due to lack of proper supervision.

3. Dogs are social animals. They generally do not do very well when by themselves for long periods of time.

4. Dogs require exercise. The amount varies widely, but many times a poorly behaved dog is really one that has not gotten enough exercise. If you are too lazy to exercise your dog, don't get one. Many dogs do fine with a hal hour walk every day. Others will need more. Remember the most important dog training axiom - "A tired dog is a good dog".

5. A mixed breed dog is often a better choice as a family pet than a purebred dog.

6. Your dog needs to know who the boss is. Hint - it is not the dog.

7. Bored dogs create all kinds of havoc. If you do not have time to spend with your dog every day, don't get a dog.

8. Tying your dog up is a good way to create all kinds of problems with your dog, especially if left that way by himself. If the dog has to be outside on its own, your best bet is a dog run or a fairly small fenced in area in your yard, with protection from the elements and a source of fresh water.

9. Dogs must be under control at all times. If not in the house, or in a fenced in area, he needs to be on a leash, with very few exceptions.

10. Dogs are animals. They don't think like humans do. They do not hold grudges, and if you correct them, they do not hold it against you.
 
Good points I use high end electronic fences for my dogs to run free. Dogs communication is outstanding when they are with there owners and they INO become smarter. I have two Bassets that are outdooor indoor pets, I have a very large German Shepherd taht is only 10 months old and 100 lb's. I do not train a dog to be agressive toward people. They have a way of knowing what is threating and not. The Shepherd just laying in the yard is deterant enough and is the most docile dog I have. Remeber it is just a part of a system you should have employed but it is the only one that will stand up for the owner no matter what size. Don't put them on a chain my god they are the only animal you can beat all day and are still thrilled to see you at the end of the day. Truely mans best friend treat them as such.


Jim
 
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It's a shameful thought, maybe even a fact, but most Dogs are smarter than their owners/abusers..

Some very good advise up there,


Ls
 
Good thread by some folks who are true pet lovers and owners .

Just buying a dog and tying them out side makes as much sense as buying a gun and never firing insteading coming home and putting it in a Closet/Drawer and thinking it's presance will magically ward off criminals , except the gun wont get lonely and develope bad behavior such as jumping on you as soon as it sees you for your love and attention the dog will .

As far as exercising your dog goes if you get them as a pup and can get them into playing fetch with a ball or a stick and make it a game for life you can keep them well exercised everyday for just a small amount of your time .

Want to "play" at seeing your dogs aggressive nature get a Tug "Plain old rope with large knots will work" and play tug of war with them they love it and can realy get into it and helps strenthen their bite and teach them tenacity while not teaching them to be agressive toward people .

A well treated and loved dog that is part of the family will respond much better to a raised voice "Not full blown screaming at the top of your lungs like an idiot though" and the dissappointment of it's master much more than will your teenager and correct it's behaviour rather quickly and will often never ever need any physical punishment , you will actually see them act ashamed if they have a minor "Accident" in the house after they start to catch on to being housebroken as a pup .
 
Jim...

The last two sentences in your post are truly sage advice.

Biker
 
Good points I use high end electronic fences for my dogs to run free.
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Electronic fences do not work with all dogs. They also do not protect your dog from other animals that may come on your property as a fence may. In most cases it is best not to rely on invisible fences when you are not there.
 
Good thread, and good advice from people who understand dogs.

Anyone who calls a dog a "Dumb Animal" hasn't lived with one...and you really can't appreciate just how intelligent and aware that they are until you have'em in multiples.
They know much more than non-dog people could ever believe. They think, reason, and the herders even show signs of being able to plan and think ahead. My Colles make a game out of seeing if they can outsmart me...and sometimes they do.

They watch your every move, and they know what you're feeling by your body language.
It's almost as if they can read your mind...and sometimes, I suspect that they can.

They want nothing more than to please you...provided you're a strong Alpha and have their respect and...just as importantly...their trust.

Good thread.
 
I beleive that "dumb animal" refers to the fact that they cannot speak as humans do. It is the the owners that never spend enough time with the dog to learn what the dog is comunicating in his own way that contributes to the dog's misbehavior most of the time.
 
A great topic and some great advice.

I do disagree with the statement that "A mixed breed dog is often a better choice as a family pet than a purebred dog". A mixed breed usually has an unknown background, whereas a purebred from a reputable breeder has multiple generations of behavioral screening behind it.
 
whereas a purebred from a reputable breeder has multiple generations of behavioral screening behind it.
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Key word, reputable breeder. If you buy pure, ask for references and bloodlines and so on, and don't rush the process. You can find a good mix or even purebred in the pound, do some tests while you're there to suss out the temperament, and be just as happy. For less money.

My contribution is this: despite dog fancier hype, no one breed can be expected to protect its family physically without training and conditioning and proper genes. Watch dogs will deter, as will imposing breeds, but you are wrong if you think Fido the untrained German Shepherd or Pippy the Pit, or whatever, will protect you just because you spoil him and he's a "strong breed." People who protection train dogs for a living do so because there is no breed that can reliably do it without training, at least not a dog you would probably want. There is the junkyard dog strategy: take a mean dog and just let it roam the perimeter, but that's not a pet and not very humane. And poses liability issues.

Repeat: ignore claims by fanciers of a given breed that it's a "natural protector" who will "give his life for the family." No breed or dog is consistently or reliably this way without training!
 
It's simple really, Just get an Australian Cattle Dog. They are the best dogs out there and everyone should be forced, by law to own one.

They really are the best dog out there. Smart, loyal, bulletproof, cute as heck and they shed like a Mofo.

Greatest dogs ever...




:neener:
 
It's enough to have an alert, loud, self-mobile alarm system most of the time, for most people. Some sort of Killer McBeast often isn't really necessary, unless the dog is to be counted on to provide a manstopping level of security by itself. And if that's the case, then a LOT of homework is in order.

Almost any pound puppy that is raised properly in a good home will fill the self-portable alarm system role. There are unfortunate multitudes of them needing homes all over the country. And often a good medium sized mixed-breed dog is sufficient to ward off troublesome folk, even with no human backup at home. By far this is the most practical approach for most people, the kids get a pet, and mom and dad have an edge on security. And a good dog gets a good home. What a deal...

Some people need or want more than that, though. There are a couple of different approaches to getting a serious protection dog. One is to look for one of the traditional working breeds- German or Belgian shepherds, Rottweilers, Dobermans etc.- and either learn to train your own working dogs, or hire it done. Neither of these avenues is any small undertaking. The first is time consuming, the second is expensive. And the dog is going to need a job to do- its mental and physical capacities will need to be exercised every day. A bored working dog is a troublesome dog, as a rule.

The other avenue to serious canine protection is to get one of the so-called molossers ( http://www.moloss.com/001/ptxt/breed.html ), Old World breeds which still retain their protective instincts. Not all molossers fall into this category however- some are far more protective than others. You can see a list of guardian breeds (including some non- molossers) at http://caninebreeds.bulldoginformation.com/guardian-dogs.html .

This sort of dog is not a good choice for a family with an active social life that involves lots of visitors. They require good tall secure fences around your property, to separate strangers from them and them from strangers. While they don't require the kind of training a shepherd or Rottweiler will, they still need good basic obedience training and general socialization. These dogs can be trained to whatever extent the owner is willing and able and the dog is capable- but they do not need extensive training to be protective. It's purely instinctive with them. But many of these breeds do not take to strangers, and might mistake boisterous play for an attack on one of their people. Due caution is necessary for owners of these breeds, plus a complete understanding of the responsibilities involved in owning this kind of dog.

The best way to get an introduction to the capabiities and demands of serious working or protection dogs is to contact breed associations, talk to breeders and trainers, attend dog shows, and attend special events like the 'working weekends' that are held at various times and places. Reading and study can help some, but IMO there is no substitute for seeing the breed you are considering at work, in the flesh. It's no small decision and should not be taken lightly.

JMHO, YMMV,

lpl (happily owned by three Fila Brasileiros and one Brittany spaniel)
 
Lee, do those Filas live up to their reputation of "ojeriza," sharp aversion to strangers? I am intrigued by this reputation, because I WOULD like to have a dog that presented a threat to unknown strangers in my house but was a good "family dog." I have seen footage of a supposedly untrained 1 yr old Fila behaving very aggressively toward a decoy. Apparently they will bite a sleeve but prefer to bite bare skin! Pure defense drive, very little prey. If you have a reputable source of this kind of dog, please PM me or reply in-thread.

Two other things that are just general pet advice...one, don't buy cheap dog food! it's corn, not much more. Check the thread on dogster called so you're confused about dog food (you can google it), but my quick and dirty recommendations from experience are Canidae Grain Free ALS, Fromm's Surf and Turf, and EVO red meat small bites. These will give you sticker shock, especially if you have multiple dogs, but like human food the more expensive stuff sometimes saves in the long term (vet bills etc). If you really want to keep to a budget but still want a good dog food, check out Canidae All Life Stages. It runs about $50/44lb, and it's way more calorie-dense than the $30/40lb grocery store stuff.

Finally, don't let any kid under 9 or 10 around any larger dog unsupervised, regardless of your personal feelings on the dog's temperament. Not worth the risk.
 
Finally, don't let any kid under 9 or 10 around any larger dog unsupervised, regardless of your personal feelings on the dog's temperament. Not worth the risk.
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I do not agree with this entirely. My dog will do nothing to my kid on purpose. He is devoted to her and wouldn't let anybody harm a hair on her head. That said when the kid was younger I didn't trust her around the dog for the dogs safety though. I think that varies on a dog to dog house to house kid to kid basis.
 
Being a grumpy old bastard that probably has more faith in his dogs than people I could only add; puppies are going to make mistakes, big puppies = big mistakes. Your carpet may never be the same, plan to get over it or don't start it.

Got a feeling that's where tying outside comes from.
 
3pairs12, you may have an exceptional 7 or 8 year old...but I honestly think *most* dogs over say 60lb should not ever be left alone with kids that age or especially younger. Kids watch disney movies and that's often where they get their understanding of dogs...bad for kid and dog. The exceptional kid who can understand what not to do, and WHY not to do it, is truly exceptional.
 
Well conwict my kid is now 11 and I have 2 dogs over 60 lbs. All three were raised with great expectations of behavior and it worked out well for me. Don't get me wrong there a lot of kids I don't trust around my dogs, but I trust my dogs around everybody. I even trust them around intruders, I trust that they will do their job and notify me when an intrusion takes place maybe even sink some teeth in them. I also have 2 kids under three the dogs also live for them. 1 more so than the other, but they were raised as members of the family and willbehave as such until the day that move on to doggy heaven. If they have a problem with that, that day may come sooner than they thought it might. I do agree with you in part though some kids are wild and some dogs get nervous around them, but I was 1 of I am sure lots of people who don't have either. I would like to add that some of the dogs I had before kids would not be left unattended with kids and a general rule I don't leave my kids unattended, but if I did my current dogs would behave as they always do which most of the time is lazy.
 
Alright conwict now you got my mind running! The smoke detector may go off now thanks a lot. Also the kid and the dogs are pretty close in age the kid is a couple of years older, and when the dogs were 2 and 3 they were just to hyper and big to by themselves with kids and the kid was definitely to small. So I guess what I am getting at is they were raised together and there was definitely some time of a learning period. So they have not always been this trust worthy. So now the dogs are older slower and mind better and only know a life with kids, so I am sure that helped. As general rule though you make a good point especially when the dogs and kids are under 6.
 
my mutts regard my kids as slow growing hairless pups that are covered under "property of the alpha" moi. there were some issues to be worked out like which dog gets to sleep with which kid when. watching a dog get between your kid and a copperhead and go nuts barking can make a feller see an awful lotta good characteristics in a mutt though
 
Dog w/ kids

my mutts regard my kids as slow growing hairless pups that are covered under "property of the alpha" moi. there were some issues to be worked out like which dog gets to sleep with which kid when. watching a dog get between your kid and a copperhead and go nuts barking can make a feller see an awful lotta good characteristics in a mutt though
Click to expand...

That's pretty much how I was raised. My parents 100lb German shepherd was a year older than me, and I was around her contstantly as soon as I could crawl, and alone with her a lot of the day for the next 12 years. She treated me exactly like that "hairless pup" that she had to watch out for all the time. Now, granted, my parents trained her to treat kids well, but that's kind of what we're talking about here, right....good training=good dog.
 
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