Long post on dogs, guns and defense.

[Len]

I know I’m a new member to this site, so, moderators, move, delete or lock this as you see fit.

Lately, we’ve seen some scattered posts about dogs. Some about hunting with them, some about “using” them as what amounts to defensive weapons.

Before I get started, I want to say, I’m no PETA idiot, I have at one time been a hunter, have “seriously” owned dogs for about 30 years. I’m more involved in dog field and obedience training than I am with shooting…and that’s saying something! I do not dress them in little sweaters, only my wife tells the dogs I’m their “dad,” not me. They’re not supposed to sleep with us…but if I wake up in the middle of the night surrounded by Labradors…I roll over and go back to sleep. My dogs are champions, healthy, obedient, fun-loving, happy and gregarious to a fault. [And thinking about a comment Glen Bartley made in another thread, yep, I too have spent thousands of dollars in health care alone….four thousand on one of them just to find out what was wrong…only to determine that nothing could be done for my friend, who was found to be dying of a rare cancer. Do we have a ton of extra money laying around? No! Was it a financial hardship? Yes. And, another four thousand bucks later, one of my current dogs, “Jim” has a new knee.]

What dogs are not:

Regarding defensive use, dogs are not guns. You can leave a gun in your house for years, unattended, and nothing bad will come of it. Not so with dogs, who need daily, hourly care. Dogs are not “tools” as guns are, which generally anyone can learn to “use” correctly. A gun does not feel pain or neglect. A dog does. A gun does not lash out unexpectedly due to pain or neglect…a dog will. You can cuss a gun out for not doing what you want and it won’t matter. Cuss out, or worse, beat your dog, and it matters. A big caliber gun is usually more lethal;, a dog’s heart or mentality is not limited by his size. Within every Chihuahua’s heart beats the same predator as the biggest Wolf. A dog is not, by virtue of size, weight or breed characteristics, a reflection on the relative “macho” of the owner. How many [to put it politely] under-educated dog owners have we all heard brag about the weight of their dogs? I know a guy who is so proud of his 140 pound lab [roughly twice the weight it ought to be], he can’t stop mentioning it. He has a fat dog. One who will die early, probably after early onset of crippling arthritis due to the enormous burden on the joints. 99.9% of dogs out there, no matter what the breed, will never, and I mean never, be “defensive” dogs. By that I mean, they will not, can not be trusted to attack the “right person” at the “right time.” Any dog mean enough to go after a human, cannot for long be trusted around anyone. Members of the household, children, their friends…all could suffer. And probably at one time or another, will suffer. There's no substitute for training. LEO’s or military personnel who are canine handlers, been trained well, bonded with their dogs, and had their dogs intensively trained, are probably as close to an exception as you’ll find. Dogs are not “macho intimidation” tools. If you want to see the result of this twisted thinking…look at what’s happened to the breeds…Rottweilers, Bull Terriers, and others, due to idiotic owners and backyard breeders having ruined the breed, the reputation of the breed, and in some communities, actually caused them to be outlawed! The owner is to blame.

What dogs are:

They are like guns…you take care of it to the best of your knowledge, and it will take care of you. Probably not in the way you think. “Fido” may never kill the bad guy coming into your house, but he will lower your blood pressure, enhance your daily life, get your sorry butt out of the house for some exercise, find the duck or the pheasant that you couldn’t in a million years, be your kid’s best friend [if not yours!] and…his best “defensive” tactic is to be your “early warning system.” Any dog can bark at a noise at the door, something that just doesn’t sound right…and alert you, the premier defender of the home, to a potential danger. And he would then have done his job.

Like guns, the more you handle them, the fonder of them you get. More than guns, they can be an actual friend and companion. Like guns, they are a financial obligation. You have to be prepared to spend some [usually, not too much] money to take care of them. You are obliged to keep them in a safe place. You are legally liable for everything the gun or dog does. And I dare say, there are more lawsuits concerning dogs than guns in our country.

So, suck it up! Get your dogs out of the sub-zero outdoors in the winter time. Get him out of the pickup truck bed when you’re driving anywhere but bumping along in the back forty. Face the fact that one of the dues you have to pay, is the fact that you just can’t pull up and go somewhere at the drop of a hat. I plan vacations around my dogs, not the other way around. Feed him right, watch his weight, get him his shots, brush him out, train him positively and consistently, take him hunting, teach him to bark at noises if you like. Let him sit at your feet while you clean your guns, he’ll adore you for it. Rather than be ignorantly proud of the ferocious beast you have chained in the back yard, be proud that you’ve got a trustworthy animal, an entirely different species from us, who is a good citizen, and welcome in your home, and in your family.

We have, in my opinion, a God-given responsibility to the animal kingdom. To treat them justly as we live with them, or hunt them, or eat them. I do not have a pet cougar, bear, or wolf, but I am intensely happy that they exist, for many reasons. Again, I understand those who enjoy hunting them. But don’t most of us have a wise mentor to thank…the one who taught us to shoot, hunt mercifully and justly, and ensure that we did not cause unnecessary pain to a noble creature?

I apologize for the length of this…take it for what it’s worth.

Len, proud handler and trainer of Frank, Jesse and James, kings of the Labrador world!

BTW, "Jim" also retrieves spent shotgun shells...and is disappointed when I don't let them get to the ground...

 

[CentralTexas]

Thanks

Well said! If we lost a dog we would treat it like a kid, take off work, spend money on ads etc., We just lost a 16 & a 17 year old fur covered "child" this year and spent whatever was necessary and needed when their health failed. I'd sell the TV, guns etc. without thinking. I'm amazed how easy it is for some to not be able to afford vet care but they have 3 TV's and digital cable & 2 new cars...
And if you really live in a cardboard box remember a dog is a luxury in those cases, not something you enjoy and dump when times get hard.
CT

 

[rico700]

Well said!

 

[308win]

Well said. Probably lost on the tooth sucking idiots who are also their own grandpas and think that taking their insecurities out on an animal who never brought any harm to them other than some minor inconvenience makes them a machoman.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

My pets are like our furry children. There's nothing we wouldn't do for them, vet care, dental works, toys, food, etc. I'm always broken hearted to see people treat their animals - rabbits, woodchucks, dogs, cats - like objects for their amusements. To me, a pet is a member of the family. I'd sell my guns to pay for their comfort if it came to that. We had a Golden growing up and still miss him every day. As for my sister's German Shepard, I think I miss her more than she does. There's something special about an animal that thinks you're God's gift to the world just because you've entered a room.

 

[Whole Hog]

What a great post! My two Brittanys are my buddies and they're almost as important to me as my two daughters. I take them with me whenever I can and worry about it when I can't. I don't expect them to take down an intruder but I do expect them to let me know something's going on. I'd spend whatever it took if they needed care, but I'm really glad right now they aren't going to college.

Scott

 

[Sinsaba]

Too true!!!

Our furry children have claws and purr. Nobody would think of them for a weapon however, the thought is the same.

 

[KriegHund]

I agree with you as well. I have a black lab that is just too dang gentle to be a defensive dog.

However if your dog can be a defensive you ought to use him as one, but that doesnt mean you can just neglect him! Very good article.

 

[MLH]

Excellent post

Mods. I think this should be a sticky!

 

[444]

On this forum as well as most internet forums, people make blanket statements implying that their opinion is the ONLY opinion and what works for them or their life applies to everyone under the sun.
I was involved in a recent thread that got hijacked by several posts totally off topic about the use of "defensive dogs". I am not sure what the definition of a "defensive dog" is, but I felt that the posts were at least in part to posts I made about my dog.
My dog was possbily the most spoiled dog that ever lived. As I have mentioned in the past, for well over a year after I bought him at the age of seven weeks, he was never out of my sight for more than five minutes. He was my constant companion. He traveled all over the western US with me. He had a huge variety of experiences: swimming, playing in the snow, hiking in the desert, hiking at high altitude in the mountains............on and on. He went to obedience school, he was a member of a Shutzhund club, he was a member of the local rottweiler club. I boarded him many times at many places and every one of these places loved him. Hundreds of people knew my dog. My dog has been dead for a couple months and just today I had two people come up to me and tell me they were sorry to hear that my dog was dead.
Long story short, my dog was far from abused.
However, he was very territorial. If you came in my (his ?) home when I wasn't there, you were in very serious trouble. If you approached my vehicle when he was in it, you would be stopped short with the threat of immediate violence. If you came near me he was on full alert until the threat proved unfounded. He was able to hear noises I couldn't hear. He had far more courage than I do. If I heard a bump in the night, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that he knew about it before I did, he checked it out before I was even aware of it, and if it was a tresspasser or a threat, he would handle the problem with total confidence.
Now people can come up with all kinds of horrible senarios that this might cause. But even though this was MY dog, they would insert this dog into THEIR lives and state absolutely that it is unsafe, irresponsible or whatever. Well, they are wrong.
First of all, I am single and have no children. I live alone. When I spend time with other people it is usually at either work, or at some kind of shooting match or shooting range. I don't bring women I date to my house, if we can't go to their house I don't call them again. In the 12 years my dog and I spent together he bit two people: one guy broke in my back sliding glass door and paid dearly for it. The second person broke into my parked pickup truck that had real dark tinted windows. I have no problem at all with either incident. I rewarded him for his behavior. This has been the job of a dog for eons. So, I can say with certainty that they are wrong because the rest of his long life was a non event. He was my best friend and never harmed a hair on the head of anyone else that wasn't in the process of commiting a crime against me.
I am not saying that owning an agressive, big dog is something that everyone should do. That decision is up to you. But people who make these absolute statements about people that do are talking out of the wrong end of their digestive tract.

 

[Horsesense]

With all due respect, I disagree with the premise of your post.

You may become emotionally attached to a possession and pay thousands of dollars to prolong its life if you want, it’s a free country. However, don’t look down your nose at people who wouldn't. Someone who is cruel and neglectful to an animal gets my dander up also, but painting everyone with the same brush, because he has a different prospective than you, is not being intellectually honest.

My dogs, a GSD and a golden retriever, are not members of my family… I let them think that they are but that’s only so because it serves my purpose. They both have a good life and I pay attention to them, get them their shots, train them etc but they are not members of my family.

I keep them around because its nice to have something to pet and play with, they are good with the kids etc but mainly because they serve a purpose in my home defenses. I don’t beat them because that is not the most productive way to get out of them what I want, I treat them with kindness because that makes them feel bonded to my family (and because i'm a nice guy) their instinct will be to protect my family and property. When the time comes I will put them down and feel sad about having lost a good dog.

 

[Len]

Let me clarify, then. 444, I was not addressing my comments to anyone, and truthfully, I hadn't seen your thread...sorry if it appears that I was directing this at anyone in particular. And Horsesense, I agree with you. I'm not "looking down my nose" at people who cannot afford catastrophic veterinary care. In fact, the relationship you describe with your dogs is beyond reproach.

What I am addressing is this: Anyone who is a defensive canine handler [Schutzhund competitors, LEO and military canines] will tell you the amount of training that goes into it. But, you have to admit, that there is a vast misuse of dogs in the name of "home defense." I'm talking about what you see in Detroit, and most major cities...the Pit Bull, Doberman or Rottweiler who is purposely chained outdoors, kept hungry, without human interaction, in order to enhance anti-social tendencies. That is not a "defensive dog." This is just a mean one. I still believe that this is unjust.

I know that dogs serve man, some in more utilitarian purposes than others. I know owners who handle sled dogs, and these dogs prefer to sleep in a snowbank. I know a shepherd with a breed specific dog...who is naturally distrustful of any stranger [man or animal] and won't allow interaction with her dogs, especially while it is guarding the sheep. These dogs are not pets, but they are members of a human/canine team. No dog person would find fault with that.

I'm not espousing the expenditure of thousands of dollars on dog care...I have done so, and obviously others here have, too. I don't expect others to do the same. What I am saying, is this. If you take on the responsibility of owning an animal, you have a duty to care for it. You cannot allow unneccessary suffering. In some cases, for some owners, this may mean huge bills. In other cases, with other owners, this may mean a merciful [and not expensive] euthanasia. You must be ready and able to do this.

I will always maintain that the best defensive dog use is his eyes and ears. You are the one with the gun. He does his job, you do yours. He lets you know, you deal with the threat. I am not a sappy, baby-talking handler...and my barking pack has scared some questionable people away. However, even with the thousands of hours that I've trained them, I would not have any confidence in them if they actually tangled with a human.

No dog will be a defender...or a substitute for a gun unless it has been thoroughly trained...something which is beyond the expense and time limits that most people are willing to approach. You can't have a good defensive dog unless you pay your dues...and those dues are substantial. There are no shortcuts.

Sorry if I "ruffled anyone's fur."

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

With all due respect in return, I'm glad most animal lovers would disagree. Any animal I love becomes a valued member of the family and we bond with it almost immediately - as do they. We didn't buy our pets for protection, we had (have) them because they give us comfort and unconditional love. I think it's wonderful if people can find a use for them that benefits them in someway, but to me, they're as important as a relative.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Very well said, Len, I couldn't agree more with your entire post!

Get your dogs out of the sub-zero outdoors in the winter time. Get him out of the pickup truck bed when you’re driving anywhere but bumping along in the back forty.

It chaps my hide every time I see dogs in the back of pickup trucks in traffic and on the freeway. Sometimes the dog is chained or roped to the truck, but just as often not. The dog struggles to keep its footing around corners and during stops. All too often, I've seen a dead dog (or what's left) on the freeway.

These owners are no particular stereotype. I've seen this in new $40-$50k 4 door trucks as well as 20 year old beaters. I've seen dogs in the bed of parked pickups sitting in the sun in 100 degree weather. It's just stupid, selfish and plain wrong.

The fact that dogs are chattel, property, does not give owners any right to neglect, abuse, and willfully expose them to injury or death. A dog is entirely dependent on its owner. When you own a dog, you assume the responsibility for its well being. It's a relationship based on trust. From the dog's point of view, you are its master; the 'alpha' dog. You'll get a lot more loyalty from a dog by earning their trust than you will by instilling fear. The dog must see you as firm, in control and predictable in order to know what is and is not acceptable behavior on its part.

In return, you'll get a happy, healthy and loyal companion.

 

[Tall Man]

Now people can come up with all kinds of horrible senarios that this might cause. But even though this was MY dog, they would insert this dog into THEIR lives and state absolutely that it is unsafe, irresponsible or whatever. Well, they are wrong.

Not necessarily, tri-4.

You mentioned your dog's ability to deliver "the threat of immediate violence", should someone approach your vehicle whilst the animal was inside. How many times have I returned to my truck, groceries in hand, only to be assaulted by the obnoxious barking of a cur through a side window that, if lower by an infinitesimal measure, would have allowed the dog to act on their threat of violence?

Since your vehicle is now parked next to me, my approach to the proximity of your vehicle is preordained. This is doubly true if I was parked in my space BEFORE you arrived. This is a germane point. I do actively avoid parking next to vehicles where it is obvioius that the owners have left a furry and usually large sentry in the rear of their auto. This has nothing to do with an aversion to animals that I don't possess anyway. It has everything to do with the fact that it is never a kick dog breed that startles me when I just want to place the bags in the truck and go home.

Thus, it was you who inserted your animal into my otherwise peaceable life.

The rest of your post was, on balance, quite well-written.

TM

 

[W Turner]

I was never a dog person until my wife an I rescued a GSD mix from a local farm. Since then I have definitely come around and our current GSD is treated as a member of the family up to a point. Yes I make sure she gets her yearly shots and heartworm medication. I play with her, pet her, would let her sleep with us until her dysplasia prevented it, and would take her on occasional trips with me to the store, etc.

But I have never lost sight of the fact that she is a dog. Not a person. If she is lying in a spot on the couch that I want to sit in, she moves. If she ever bites my son just because he gets too close, then another home will be found for her or she will be euthanized. If there is an intruder in the house, she will go after them before I will. If she is injured/killed because of this it will break my heart, but my son will still have a father and my wife will still have a husband. If at age 7 or 8 her dysplasia gets so severe that the options are either hip replacement or euthanasia, then she will go to the Rainbow Bridge. I love her dearly, but she is a dog.

I know some people don't agree with this point of view, but I feel that you have to draw a line somewhere.


W

 

[Pilgrim]

Get him out of the pickup truck bed when you’re driving anywhere but bumping along in the back forty.

If you make your wife ride in the bed of the pickup truck so your dog won't get wet and cold,....you might be a 'redneck'.

Pilgrim

 

[No_Brakes23]

and…his best “defensive” tactic is to be your “early warning system.”

I couldn't agree more. I have neither the time nor inclination to work with the family pet as much as a K-9 LEO would. My dogs will be pets and nothing more. If an intruder enters the house, and my pooch does nothing more than make enough noise to wake me, then it has already helped a lot.

Besides, I'd rather have a pet than a pit. I also won't rely on the dog to make noise. I grew up with a Dobie that had been trained as a guard dog. But after a few years of soft family life he was just a big softie, and wouldn't even make noise at people stealing the cover off my dad's car. He still wouldn't eat anything thrown on the ground, and he wouldn't eat anything from your right hand, but most of his other guard training left him.

I agree with Horsesense, in so far as the dog is just a tool/toy, but just like a rifle or car, I am not gonna neglect that tool.

 

[444]

Tall Man
There are several problems with your post. First of all, you are projecting something that happened to you with someone elses dog onto me and my dog. In other words, you are doing exactly what I said in my post: you are taking your situation and making some kind of blanket statement. "Since your vehicle is now parked next to me": My car has never been parked next to you. If you had this problem, it was with someone else, not me or my dog. "Thus, it was you who inserted your animal into my otherwise peaceable life." : I inserted absolutely nothing into your life. You don't know me, I don't know you. I would bet my next paycheck that you have never seen a vehicle I owned. Again, you had a problem with someone and now am holding me responsible.
My dog never barked. I trained him to "speak" and even then he went though all the motions of barking but didn't make any noise. When the guy broke into my truck, the reason he didn't know there was a dog inside is because my dog didn't bark.
I never parked my car or truck in a crowded parking lot with my dog inside the car. This wasn't because I was concerned about your feelings, it was because I didn't want the dog to have to worry about people coming near the car. I almost never go anywhere like a grocery store, mall or any kind of shopping center where I would leave my car unattended for an extended period of time. Again, I am single. I don't buy a lot of groceries. When I am not working (It isn't unusal for me to work 72 and sometimes 96 hours a week), I eat out.
Finally, in this senario you give, the dog did absolutely nothing to you, but get on your nerves. In other words, you allowed your emotions to annoy you. Your peaceable life would have been just as peaceable except for your own thoughts and feelings.

 

[silverlance]

but more to the point

how do you train dogs not to eat food thrown on the gorund, and how do you train them not to eat form right hands?

anecdotes:

my jindo broke down the frame of my bedroom door last night after i left for 3 hours. sigh*

there's drywall everywhere... and it's not like he didn't have food or water or been left in my room before...


then again, my ex gf's st. bernard popped the HINGES on a chain link fence gate and walked about the neighborhood for about two hours until they found him. he's about 160lbs and is a 1yro puppy... apparently his half-acre felt crampy...

 

[riverdog]

I pulled into a parking space next to an SUV last week and didn't notice the GSD in the SUV until I was locking up. His owner had left all four windows down enough to get air and had parked in the shade. The GSD and I made eye contact once and then he ignored me. He had his eyes glued to the front of the store waiting for his owner. That's a dog I could live with.

There are great dog stories as well as horror stories and breed has mostly nothing to do with it. The most unpredictable dog I've known lately was a Cocker Spaniel. I've known good Rotties, Doberman', GSD's and Pit Bulls (both APBT and Staffordshire's). Trained well and socialized they can all be exceptional dogs. I was out running in a business park late afternoon and saw a businessowner locking up. Behind him was a Rottie who saw me and unbeknownst to the owner (focused on locking doors) left his side and crossed the street to check me out. I stopped running and waited for him. By the time the owner knew he was gone he was sniffing my hand. The owner about had a coronary when he saw his dog across the street with me, but the dog was fine. He called and the dog immediately crossed back and I resumed running.

When I was looking to buy a GSD I visited a breeder/trainer who opened the cage of one of the dogs she trusted. This was a Schutzen trained dog and was really fast out of the gate. In my face to check me out and then down. Schutzen doesn't make a dog mean, it means the dog is trained to a standard. In most cases they are safer. This big male GSD would have been fine with kids.

Then again in the same business park I met the rottie, a couple is out with their lapdog, a toy something that was mean as hell. The owner put the dog down off leash as I approached and it came after me. That dog came very close to having its life cut short because the stupid owner thought it would be funny. Not funny.

I side with those who keep their dogs inside at night, treat them well and keep them socialized. Dogs don't need to be mean to be effective.

 

[SUPERMAN .45]

I have 7 Pitbulls and 2 American Bulldogs,We treat them as our family.3 of my Pitbull sleeps in my room.All of my dogs are nice and fun to be with,I love my dogs so much.I play with them most of the time,it's so nice to have a dog but you must be a responsible dog owner.

 

[Tall Man]

If you came in my (his ?) home when I wasn't there, you were in very serious trouble. If you approached my vehicle when he was in it, you would be stopped short with the threat of immediate violence. If you came near me he was on full alert until the threat proved unfounded.

"If you.."
"If you.."
"If you.."

Talk about projection.

Ok, 444. I'm lowering my cyber sword. Hopefully, we'll engage in a more productive give-and-take on another day.

Peace.

TM

 

[chris in va]

Been there, done that. No more dogs for me.

 

[Frandy]

All I know is that we have four dogs in the house, two rescued greyhounds, an Italian greyhound, and a Shi Tzu. If anyone is heard around the house or attempts to enter, all four bark wildly and continually. The hounds, with those deep chests, sure can be loud. But, don't mess with the Shi Tzu...he'll bite yer ankle off or kick ya' in the shins till ya' drop.