Some thoughts on mans best friend.

[qwert65]

I hope this is appropriate for THR. I'm sure a lot of members know this anyway in case of those that don't I'd like to share it. This is not gun related but conflict avoidance related.
Criminals don't like dogs- that's a fact, they make noise and might harm them/delay their escape, or make an abduction more complicated. While homes with dogs are burglarized, and I admittedly don't have any stats. I have never heard or read of someone succesfully robbing a home with a large "scary breed" that was free to roam the house. (Not locked or chained, and the animal was inside/not confined to one room).

Personal expierience when I lived in a 3rd world country for 3 years (weapons were not allowed and petty crime was very common ) was that having loose dogs in your yard was the smart thing to do - many of my classmates were robbed, none having a dog in the house. Further it was a problem for females being accosted on the street, however women walking dogs were never bothered. Keep in mind these dogs were not "guard" breeds most were island dogs btw 30-40lbs

During winter in NJ(where I grew up) if it was cold enough to leave a dog in the car. This seemed to be a deterrent to car theives(very comman on college campuses ) obviously, you can't prove a negative but I've never heard of a car burglarized with a dog inside.

I have heard of ppl being mugged in NYC with dogs - but they were all little less then 10lbs.
There are a couple documented cases of felons fleeing a crime after encountering a large dog. In fact one murder by the BTK serial killer could have been avoided if the woman hadn't locked up her dog per his request(he was dressed as a public utility man)

How is this related to S&T? In my opinion avoidance is key. I know a lot of ppl can't afford or don't have time for a dog, but for those of you who do, esp those that keep their dog outside or locked up(not saying anything wrong with this) it's another tool in the bag. Got to run an errand in a bad neighborhood? If its cool enough- take your dog along for the ride. Away most of the day at work? See if your dog behaves by himself inside. Coming home with your dog and something doesn't look quite right send your dog in first- most will go to a new person(if freindly) or will act aggressive or afraid if not.

A dog is not a fool proof system and they are a responsibility. I know of no other system however, that is alert, on all the time, mobile(can travel with you) and has literally a thousand year track record of success.

I hope this post was appropriate.

 

[Outlaw Man]

My cousin just bought a boxer because she likes to run, and there have been a few women approached in the area (thankfully no abductions or assaults), and she knows a boxer can run with her. She likes firearms, and carries, but I can understand how she would prefer not to carry a gun while she's running. Sure, there are methods, but they're not always convenient or inexpensive.

A dog is just another tool to have in your tool box, with the added bonus of it being a great companion. Dogs (usually) aren't frowned upon in certain locations, though they're often also prohibited in some buildings. Even if the deterrent factor doesnt work, the added time it can give you in a serious situation (to escape or to access your firearm) can make the difference between life or death.

 

[DNS]

I've found that having two ninety pound speed bumps at the front door do keep every one friendly. The golden retriever alerts but the border collie looks more like a black and white shepherd/panda bear mix and simply stares with her black eyes. She flat intimadates people.

 

[Sam1911]

We are quite big proponents here of the benefits of our canine friends for S&T purposes.

They can be a complicating factor and sometimes do come with certain risks, but the benefits seem to outweigh the detriments in many cases.

 

[Fred Fuller]

There's an old saying, so old it's been shortened to an initialism in some circles - TANSTAAFL. It means "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch." See http://www.technovelgy.com/ct/content.asp?Bnum=735 for the innocents here ... surely we still have some innocents here, I hope.

That's dogs in a nutshell. LOTS of advantages to us humans, as they have been for who knows how long - but at a price. Sometimes a painful price, in more ways than one. You need to know that going in, if you don't already. It's pretty much Lesson One where dogs are concerned.

And it applies ever so much more so for the protective breeds. Most any mutt will get territorial about hearth and home in the right circumstances, but certain breeds are known for being harder in temperament and thus more suited to guardian roles.

Around here (in the mountains of western NC), livestock guardian dogs are somewhat popular and even necessary, given the population of 'varmints' looking for an easy meal at some poor farmer's expense. So it isn't too unusual to see a Great Pyreneese out guarding something or other in a pasture, paddock or on a hillside. See http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/greatpyrenees.htm if you aren't familiar with the breed. One of our neighbors uses a Great Pyr to guard his ducks. One of the prices you pay with a Great Pyr is that the dog belongs to the flock or herd, not to you. That's how the dog does its job.

Which is Lesson Two where dogs are concerned. You have to know the breed. Unless, of course, you want to take a chance with a dog that's more of an unknown quantity. But if you've heard various folks sing the praises of this or that breed, you may be interested ... for a lot of wrong reasons. It's absolutely necessary to do your homework ahead of time, so you know what you're getting into if you decide to take on one of the guardian breeds for your own.

How?

Read and study. The 'net is likely to be a good source, especially for the more unusual/rare breeds. And there are likely books available on every identified breed at this point, save perhaps for some of the genuinely rare breeds.

Network. There are likely breed associations out there made up of people who already own and work with the breed you're interested in - the net is a good link to those, often enough. And those clubs/associations often hold breed specific shows and other activities. Temperament tests (http://atts.org/) are a pretty common aspect of owning a guardian dog, for example. And you will definitely want to see the dog you're interested in both in the flesh and at work before you get serious about owning (or being owned by) one of them. You'll want to meet breeders in person as well, and get to know them. You may have to travel across several states to make one of these meetings (sometimes described as 'working weekends') - if you have to, buck up and do it. It's part of the price - and ultimately a pretty small part, given how much fun it's likely to be.

Ultimately you have to examine your own situation and lifestyle objectively before making a decision. Whatever you do, don't shortchange a good dog by discovering a year after you brought home a cute wiggly ball of fuzz that you've bitten off more than you can chew. It's depressing how often that happens with serious guardian breeds. I know several breeders who, out of their love for the breed, have stopped breeding simply because it's so hard to place these dogs with responsible owners.

 

[Outlaw Man]

the border collie looks more like a black and white shepherd/panda bear mix and simply stares with her black eyes. She flat intimadates people.

To people unfamiliar with the breed, their teeth can be downright frightening when they "smile."

 

[qwert65]

Fred is correct, though I am not a fan of livestock guardian breeds for this purpose(though they like humans are indivuals) the reason is they tend to be stubborn and independent which is what they need to do their job.
Personally, there are two ways to go about finding a dog for this purpose, treat it as a tool, get a good working type dog and teach it its territory. Another way is select a male dog with some hound or sheperd in it doesn't need to be purebred, and treat it as family- most will bond and become naturally territorial. The best route is inbetween
This is an over simplification and depends on your needs some general guidelines are;
Larger the dog the more imposing and intimidating esp in dark colors and if of a protection breed may coast on that breeds "rep" on the downsides, they have more health problems and a shorter lifespan, eat more and require more excersise.
If just a watch dog is all you care for then smaller breeds can tend to be more alert, eat less and live longer.
Males pick up territorial traits quicker

Once again an oversimplification and as Fred stated research is your friend.

 

[hartcreek]

But you have to realize that a dog is just another tool that you have and it can be circumvented with some ground round wrapped around chunky peanut butter.

 

[meat57]

We have a two tiered approach. 15# schnauzer poodle mix who serves as the alarm. You won't get near my house without him letting us know. Second step is the 100# Bull mastiff-American Bulldog mix who sleeps in the kitchen( if my youngest son doesn't sneak him into his bed) He's pretty docile but I would hate to be coming throw the door with him there. Hopefully after all that noise I will be awake to deal with what is left.

 

[qwert65]

Hartcreek, while I agree they are another tool, that's exactly why I advocate the dog being INSIDE the house. They will alert before there is a chance to be bribed.
Also if a protective minded dog truly feels a member of the pack bribing is not that effective.(in an assault scenario)

 

[yamahawarrior89]

I have a Siberian Husky

And although he looks intimidating and like a wolf, he is the worst guard dog. He loves people and doesn't even bark if someone knocks on the door. He just always want to greet people and say hello.

But also, you have to be careful because someone could use your dog as a reason to come up and talk to you. Once they find out its friendly and you already opened yourself to conversation, you have let your guard down. Just something to consider.

 

[lemaymiami]

Gentlemen... Y'all need a dose of cold water. I love dogs, have two retrievers and I know that most feel a lot more secure with their dogs as alarms and to run interference when lowlifes come to your property....

As far as professionals go dogs are just one more barrier to be overcome... When my outfit did warrant service on places that used dogs as security - we always specifically detailed one officer to kill the dog. In my case I was called out to the scene where one dog was taken down with a short-barreled 12ga entry weapon. In another case two free running dogs were inside a fenced in compound to deny entry to the rear of the property. The first dog was engaged with a suppressed 9mm MP-5... after two rounds were fired the second dog immediately turned tail and retreated at high speed without a single bark.. and, as a result survived the encounter a lot better than the first dog did...

All of the above involved dogs being used by drug dealers as addtional security. Most of the officers I knew were dog owners themselves - but still did the job they were paid for.

I make the assumption that if pros are coming your only warning will be when your dogs quit barking.... That includes my own dogs as well.

 

[george29]

Criminals don't like dogs- that's a fact,

For the most part. My alarm system is a 9lb Jackhuahua, sleeps with me. He's a fear biter and attacks out of fear. I don't have a use for bigger dogs anymore as long as Misters Smith and Wesson are nearby.

 

[Nom de Forum]

One day a few years back, two Australian Shepherds walking on the sidewalk across the street started barking at me. Our little Buckley looked-up from his sniffing of the lawn, ran his 17 pounds of ferocity across the street, bit one of the Aussie’s in the nose which then began to howl, snapped at the other Aussie, then ran back across the street to me with an obvious look of pride on his face. The two Aussie’s and their owner were so flabbergasted, that Buckley was back in the yard before they could retaliate. Buckley was pound per pound the toughest and best little watch dog I ever had. I could always depend on him to alert me to the possible need for grabbing my Win 97. Buckley passed last year after protecting his family for 13 years. It is not the size of the dog in the fight, it is the size of the fight in the dog.

 

[qwert65]

I really like the stories guys, however in the interest of this forum, I think the tactics of canines is more on topic. For example, lemymiami if you have swat team after you I doubt any security would be fool proof, I don't think that's a fair comparison that's like saying drug dealers had bodyguards but a swat team took them down so bodyguards are over rated. Using your scenario though in the interests of education- were the dogs trained? We're they inside the house? Did they alert the owners to your prescence?(before being neutralized)
To me your post and Hartcreek 's show not only some of a dogs flaws(and there are more) but the advantages of them being inside the house- it gives you a chance to be alerted/get your weapons/call 911 BEFORE your home is breached.
Going further if you are expecting a team of assailants with suppressed weapons then you should probably stop what you are doing, but if you are gonna get dogs get some professionally trained guard dogs. I'm a veterinarian and I have a small bit of expierience with Military working dogs- those are some bad dudes.

In the interest if moving this thread forward some breeds are more predisposed to this work then others, GSD, rotties, dobermans- and if only wanting an alarm miniature pinchicshers, chihuahuas, and jack Russell's to name a few

 

[poolingmyignorance]

Gentlemen... Y'all need a dose of cold water. I love dogs, have two retrievers and I know that most feel a lot more secure with their dogs as alarms and to run interference when lowlifes come to your property....

As far as professionals go dogs are just one more barrier to be overcome... When my outfit did warrant service on places that used dogs as security - we always specifically detailed one officer to kill the dog. In my case I was called out to the scene where one dog was taken down with a short-barreled 12ga entry weapon. In another case two free running dogs were inside a fenced in compound to deny entry to the rear of the property. The first dog was engaged with a suppressed 9mm MP-5... after two rounds were fired the second dog immediately turned tail and retreated at high speed without a single bark.. and, as a result survived the encounter a lot better than the first dog did...

All of the above involved dogs being used by drug dealers as addtional security. Most of the officers I knew were dog owners themselves - but still did the job they were paid for.

I make the assumption that if pros are coming your only warning will be when your dogs quit barking.... That includes my own dogs as well.

You make a valid point, but at the current state of affairs the dog is a lot cheaper than land mines. If your on somebodies radar enough to warrant a hit squad with suppressed MP5's your either a drug dealer, or posted too much anti Obama rhetoric on forums like this.
A dog is just another layer of protection. And you can 'what if' every layer when you lay down the "when pros come" card.

 

[Schwing]

I have a somewhat different perspective on this. I regularly work with people from my county AC department. I can't even tell you how many bite reports get filed every week in our county alone. Usually it is a child or elderly person being attacked by an aggressive breed. Usually it is a few stitches and a traumatized kid. Sometimes it is a lot worse. It always amazes me how the owners will almost always blame the victim. I think all of us can agree that if a 5 year old found one of our loaded guns laying on the ground and shot themselves with it, we would be solely responsible... not the kid and not the gun.

I don't blame the dogs at all. In most cases it is someone who has no idea what their dog is capable of and has never even bothered with any kind of training for themselves or the dog. Just a couple of weeks ago a little girl was mauled by a rottweiler that was tied up on a ladies porch with a 20 foot rope. The little neighbor girl just wanted to pet the cute "Puppy". Unfortunately, it is usually the dog that pays when this happens.

I certainly understand the appeal but just like gun owners. Dog owners need to exercise caution and understand the dangers as well as the huge upside.

 

[qwert65]

Absolutely a good point. I hate putting down dogs that really never had a chance. It is a definate responsibility

 

[Nom de Forum]

...........I'm a veterinarian and I have a small bit of expierience with Military working dogs- those are some bad dudes.

In the interest if moving this thread forward some breeds are more predisposed to this work then others, GSD, rotties, dobermans- and if only wanting an alarm miniature pinchicshers, chihuahuas, and jack Russell's to name a few

At SOTIC we had a little training on Sentry/Attack/Tracking Dog neutralization. We were suited up with a sleeve. Everyone quickly learned that a 65 lbs. Malinois clamped onto your arm was only a hint of how bad it was going to be if a trained dog got you. "Military working dogs-those are some bad dudes" is an understatement.

I agree with all the comments about the pros and cons of dogs for protection. Especially the large breeds, they require quite an investment in money and dedication of time. For me a smaller breed used for warning is best for my lifestyle. They bark and I bite.

 

[Nom de Forum]

I have a somewhat different perspective on this. I regularly work with people from my county AC department. I can't even tell you how many bite reports get filed every week in our county alone. Usually it is a child or elderly person being attacked by an aggressive breed. Usually it is a few stitches and a traumatized kid. Sometimes it is a lot worse. It always amazes me how the owners will almost always blame the victim. I think all of us can agree that if a 5 year old found one of our loaded guns laying on the ground and shot themselves with it, we would be solely responsible... not the kid and not the gun.

I don't blame the dogs at all. In most cases it is someone who has no idea what their dog is capable of and has never even bothered with any kind of training for themselves or the dog. Just a couple of weeks ago a little girl was mauled by a rottweiler that was tied up on a ladies porch with a 20 foot rope. The little neighbor girl just wanted to pet the cute "Puppy". Unfortunately, it is usually the dog that pays when this happens.

I certainly understand the appeal but just like gun owners. Dog owners need to exercise caution and understand the dangers as well as the huge upside.

I agree 100%. After learning our little Buckley had Kamakaze tendencies we never let him out front again unless on a leash. That was for the safety of other people and dogs, as well as his. We never encouraged his aggressive protective behavior, it was innate. In Buckley's case, Shi tzu (translates as lion dog) was not just a physical description.

 

[Fred Fuller]

I am not a fan of livestock guardian breeds for this purpose

Nor am I.

I wasn't suggesting that Great Pyrs etc. be used as guard dogs for people - merely pointing out how much breeding can enter into selecting the best breed for a given purpose. A big white dog that's out in the meadow with the livestock isn't going to do much to guard the house half a mile away - especially when that dog's focus is on the animals, not the people.

As far as professionals go dogs are just one more barrier to be overcome...

As far as professionals go, the world is full of amateurs.

We have often stated here that security comes in layers - and dogs are just one more layer in what should be a multi-layered approach to security. If someone shoots, or shoots at our dogs (which are confined behind a substantial fence with padlocked gates), that will give us to know that their intentions are not good and allow us to respond appropriately.

We are not here to offer advice to drug dealers and criminals, in case I need to re-state the obvious. As to pit bulls as guard dogs, in my former county of residence, the most frequently stolen dogs (if newspaper classifieds were any indicator) were pit bulls.

 

[JustinJ]

I agree that dogs provide a great level of security but nobody should get one for this reason alone. A dog is far more than just a tool and owning one carries a great deal of responsibility. It provides me a great deal of comfort to know my heeler is home guarding my wife and child when i'm not there but his care requires a good deal of work. He's not your average heeler, at 65 lbs of pure muscle. He has an incredibly strong bond to his family and by nature of the breed is a fearless dog which is almost impossible to intimidate, as such is necessary for the purpose his breed was developed for. Last year I spent over $4k to fix his front leg after he hyper extended the joint. Like certain other breeds, he requires a great deal of attention as such is critical to the well being of animal so eager to please. Many of the ideal guard dogs are high energy and very intelligent so require lots of exercise and mental stimulation. As a lifetime dog lover, I couldn't imagine living my life without one or more so its an easy choice for me. For non-dog lovers though, one must carefully consider all the associated work and responsibilities before acquiring one. They are a ten to fifteen year commitment.

 

[lemaymiami]

I posted what I did.... only to point out that any dog in place for security or home protection is actually quite vulnerable to folks that plan an attack (on either side of the spectrum good or bad...). Many that own dogs never consider that side of the issue and it bears consideration as part of your security plan (if you have one at all... most can live their entire lives without needing this sort of stuff). Most dogs at residences won't have any specific training at all and still serve their purpose just fine. I had K-9 officers in my units for most of my career and know how much on-going training and maintenance both dogs and their handlers require to stay sharp.

When I described two incidents I'm familiar with it was done to provide a dose of the reality I lived with during my career... On the criminal side of things it's as likely to be poisoned food or almost any other tactic that ends up disabling or killing a dog put in place to deter entry....

I do like and enjoy dogs both as pets and for their other practical uses. Like good locks, though, they mostly keep the un-skilled away....

 

[Pyzon]

Add me to the 'just another tool in the home security toolbox' crowd.

In this and other such forums there are almost daily threads asking what is the best home defense firearm......

But all these questions need to be answered with more questions. Like, what else is in the works in addition to dogs and guns to insure that the home is as secure as it could possibly be ? Are the residents all on the same page when the bump in the night happens ? Are your doors and windows protected with cheap, flimsy locks ? Is your yard covered with motion detecting flood lights pointing out into the dark space ? Are you aware of what capabilities and intentions your neighbors have regarding the neighborhood ?

Dogs are a great addition to a good plan though.

 

[PistolPete45]

I had a half pit half rottie 20 years ago ,, She was a loving sweet pet and anyone we let in the house was welcome .. out in the yard she would sit with people and beg attention .. but get 12 feet from the house or think about going in the back .. A growl like a thunder storm .. hair would stand up . So surprise We never had a problem with unwanted visitors