A real eye opener, no flamewar intended.
- Thread starter JeffDilla
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My experience as a paramedic pretty much parallels Rich's, I think. Most of the gunshots I saw (never saw an accident; one suicide and several "gangstas") were actually pretty unimpressive. One bad guy comes to mind; he was thoroughly ventilated with .22s and bled out during the ride, but the half dozen neat little holes really didn't catch your attention.
Another .22 victim was shot once in the head and I really had to look to find the entrance wound at all. In the hair, no exit wound, and DRT.
The guy that shot himself in the throat with the 12 gauge, though, was a mess, and traumatizing for all present. For whatever it's worth, if you're going to commit suicide with a shotgun, you should do it somewhere where your mother isn't going to be the one to find you.
qajaq59
Member
Now you need to attend a lecture on what auto accidents can do. Believe me, it is worse and far, far more prevalent.
I actually know what you are going through. Been there, done that. After a while, the horror scenery turns in to a simple understanding of physics and you are able to think about it with good logic which you are being conditioned to do as it is mandatory rationality in forensics.
Do keep this in mind. Despite being the most intimidating and lethal, guns are the greatest invention to humanitary killing ever. First, they balance the odds, where before guns came along a big guy with a sword was usually able to bully a little guy and women with an equal size sword.
Secondly, next time you see a human skull that's been splattered by a high powered rifle or shotgun, think of the killing from the victim's perspective and then compare in the same way, someone getting their head sawed off by a knife.
In that sense, more mess usually = less suffering. The same is true eve in hunting. I don't know about everyone else but if I were a deer, I would much rather a hunter blow my brains out with a .270 rifle then a mountain lion rip me apart alive.
Likewise, I would much rather you be sifting through my shattered skull then fiddling with my sawed off head.
Do keep this in mind. Despite being the most intimidating and lethal, guns are the greatest invention to humanitary killing ever. First, they balance the odds, where before guns came along a big guy with a sword was usually able to bully a little guy and women with an equal size sword.
Secondly, next time you see a human skull that's been splattered by a high powered rifle or shotgun, think of the killing from the victim's perspective and then compare in the same way, someone getting their head sawed off by a knife.
In that sense, more mess usually = less suffering. The same is true eve in hunting. I don't know about everyone else but if I were a deer, I would much rather a hunter blow my brains out with a .270 rifle then a mountain lion rip me apart alive.
Likewise, I would much rather you be sifting through my shattered skull then fiddling with my sawed off head.
BruceRDucer
Member
/
Hey JeffDilla, that's okay. It's like seeing car wreck videos in the driving ed classes. It takes a while to sort out the ugliness.
We must always be mindful that guns, and violence generally, are not the solution to most of mankind's problems. Our problem is learning to "live" together, rather than to "die" together.
Still, we must never remove the threat of unwarranted violence from the daily equation.
Historically, violence has been done to civilian populations, which justifies the principles and laws for Self Defense.
Shooting is never romantic, as Hollywood movies often suggest.
Even as a teenager, watching Westerns on TV, I noticed that all the witnessess, the townspeople and ranchers, watching cowboys gun each other down, all seemed to be both expressionless and feelingless puppets, looking around at the dead person or persons, entirely devoid of emotion or feeling.
In fact, part of sorting out my own philosophical issues was identifying the role of FEELINGS in healthier people.
Regardless of which though, criminal violence and lawful self defense are distinctly different propositions, and we must not fail to distinguish the two.
/
Hey JeffDilla, that's okay. It's like seeing car wreck videos in the driving ed classes. It takes a while to sort out the ugliness.
We must always be mindful that guns, and violence generally, are not the solution to most of mankind's problems. Our problem is learning to "live" together, rather than to "die" together.
Still, we must never remove the threat of unwarranted violence from the daily equation.
Historically, violence has been done to civilian populations, which justifies the principles and laws for Self Defense.
Shooting is never romantic, as Hollywood movies often suggest.
Even as a teenager, watching Westerns on TV, I noticed that all the witnessess, the townspeople and ranchers, watching cowboys gun each other down, all seemed to be both expressionless and feelingless puppets, looking around at the dead person or persons, entirely devoid of emotion or feeling.
In fact, part of sorting out my own philosophical issues was identifying the role of FEELINGS in healthier people.
Regardless of which though, criminal violence and lawful self defense are distinctly different propositions, and we must not fail to distinguish the two.
/
SSN Vet
Member
A co-worker seriously cut his hand (almost in half) while working on a table saw in his garage. My stomach turned as he described his injuries to me. The scars on his hands were pretty severe and a year later he still had very limited use of his hand.
I think its very healthy to be fully aware of the devastating power harnessed by "power tools" and I consider firearms in the same category.
Many gun safety "incidents" (imo) are related to confusing guns with toys and not potentially dangerous tools.
Your class gave you a good reminder of that potential danger of handguns. Log that one away mentally and it will serve you well the rest of your life.
I think its very healthy to be fully aware of the devastating power harnessed by "power tools" and I consider firearms in the same category.
Many gun safety "incidents" (imo) are related to confusing guns with toys and not potentially dangerous tools.
Your class gave you a good reminder of that potential danger of handguns. Log that one away mentally and it will serve you well the rest of your life.
PershingRiflesC-7
Member
As a survivor of a GSW due to improper gun handling when I was young and dumb (33 years ago), I can clearly relate to the OP's point about focus on the four rules. Due to my negligence, I was able to learn a lesson the hard way -- I would not wish that on anyone.
As to the points made by other posters concerning the actual wounds, I was shot with a .22 magnum in the abdomen with the bullet on an upward trajectory that carried it to a point under my left shoulder blade where it remains today. The docs said they would do more damage with surgery than it was worth to remove the bullet. The entry wound was relatively small and bled very little.
As to the points made by other posters concerning the actual wounds, I was shot with a .22 magnum in the abdomen with the bullet on an upward trajectory that carried it to a point under my left shoulder blade where it remains today. The docs said they would do more damage with surgery than it was worth to remove the bullet. The entry wound was relatively small and bled very little.
Norinco982lover
Member
Interesting post.
Had a discussion with my wife last night she asked me, "I don't know why you have to have a gun, they accidentally go off and kill people." I said, "well they're just a tool like any other such as a hammer you need to respect them and always always follow the 4 rules," She said, "hammer's don't go off and kill people," and I reminded her of the story posted here last week about that guy flipping out on a subway and pulled a hammer from his backpack and started beating everyone. It's still not the same though. The gun IS a tool but I suppose it would be best compared to a chainsaw or a nailgun. You have to be careful with it and always watch that you don't leave it out where a child can hurt themselves and be sure that you handle it safely.
Had a discussion with my wife last night she asked me, "I don't know why you have to have a gun, they accidentally go off and kill people." I said, "well they're just a tool like any other such as a hammer you need to respect them and always always follow the 4 rules," She said, "hammer's don't go off and kill people," and I reminded her of the story posted here last week about that guy flipping out on a subway and pulled a hammer from his backpack and started beating everyone. It's still not the same though. The gun IS a tool but I suppose it would be best compared to a chainsaw or a nailgun. You have to be careful with it and always watch that you don't leave it out where a child can hurt themselves and be sure that you handle it safely.
Restorer
Member
Likewise, I would much rather you be sifting through my shattered skull then fiddling with my sawed off head....
Brigadier, say it ain't so! I just coated my keyboard with coffee. That was totally unexpected. Hey, you could license that line to a greeting card company...or a country music songwriter.
Brigadier, say it ain't so! I just coated my keyboard with coffee. That was totally unexpected. Hey, you could license that line to a greeting card company...or a country music songwriter.
halfbreed808
Member
When I was about 15yo I went to my friends house to hang out. We hung out after school whenever his girlfriend wasn't around. Well they had broken up a couple of days earlier, so I was going to see him. Anyway, long story short he got a shotgun and did the unthinkable. 
I'm the one who found him in the garage. His parents weren't home from work yet.
That memory stays with me all the time, yet I realize every action, and reaction is the result of choice. The decisions we make, no matter how miniscule they may seem can snowball into biggger actions then we intend. We cannot blame the object only the user of the object. When it comes to the conclusion the decisions we make, affect the outcome. Every decision we make will always affect at least three other people in some way. It' how we choose that we create either positive or negative results.
___________________________
"IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES."
I'm the one who found him in the garage. His parents weren't home from work yet.That memory stays with me all the time, yet I realize every action, and reaction is the result of choice. The decisions we make, no matter how miniscule they may seem can snowball into biggger actions then we intend. We cannot blame the object only the user of the object. When it comes to the conclusion the decisions we make, affect the outcome. Every decision we make will always affect at least three other people in some way. It' how we choose that we create either positive or negative results.
___________________________
"IT'S ALL ABOUT CHOICES."
Deer Hunter
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I got to hold down a screaming, urinating, cursing 14 year old drug addict while he tried to claw the eyes out of our nurses a few nights ago.
But I know that the drugs didn't do that to the kid. He did it to himself with the help of the drugs.
But I know that the drugs didn't do that to the kid. He did it to himself with the help of the drugs.
Wait until you see someone who has been struck by a car doing 60 MPH. Makes GSWs look like insect bites.
Levity aside, I think most shooters are aware of the effects of bullet wounds. I think we take the responsibility of owning and using firearms seriously.
Levity aside, I think most shooters are aware of the effects of bullet wounds. I think we take the responsibility of owning and using firearms seriously.
At one point I saw some pictures of gun-suicide victims. Horrible horrible pics, and had the same effect of bringing home the seriousness of what guns can do. It isn't for everyone, because as I said, the images are horrible, but if you have the stomach for it, I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing the real consequences of a bullet on a person. It isn't anything to be taken lightly, and it isn't anything like Hollywood.
theotherwaldo
Member
The bottom line: Respect your tools. Be concerned about their abilities to generate and channel force. Learn how to use them properly. Know your limitations, and theirs. Be aware that others may not respect your tools, or their own.
This is true of any tool, from screwdriver to steam shovel, tricycle to space shuttle, toothpick to X-ray machine.
It's certainly true for such ordinary tools as firearms and automobiles.
This is true of any tool, from screwdriver to steam shovel, tricycle to space shuttle, toothpick to X-ray machine.
It's certainly true for such ordinary tools as firearms and automobiles.
SCKimberFan
Member
Momentary Hijack
Norinco -
You missed a great opportunity. Guns do NOT go off accidentally. You should have corrected her. Someone has to pull the trigger!
OK, rant done. Back to your regular thread.
Norinco -
You missed a great opportunity. Guns do NOT go off accidentally. You should have corrected her. Someone has to pull the trigger!
OK, rant done. Back to your regular thread.
graygun
Member
It's good to realize how destructive a high-speed projectile(including shot,etc.) can be w/o being hit or shooting someone.
I remember seeing photos in the Smithonian medical museum in D.C. when I was about 12 yrs old. One was of a shot gun suicide:nothing left of the head from about nose-level.
If it helps us have more respect for the lethal potential than it's good,I suppose.
Regarding movies and TV(the makers of the products),I find it strange that people who are mostly very liberal are so deeply into gun violence fantasy. It makes them a lot of money;so I guess,in part,it's a self-answering question.
I remember seeing photos in the Smithonian medical museum in D.C. when I was about 12 yrs old. One was of a shot gun suicide:nothing left of the head from about nose-level.
If it helps us have more respect for the lethal potential than it's good,I suppose.
Regarding movies and TV(the makers of the products),I find it strange that people who are mostly very liberal are so deeply into gun violence fantasy. It makes them a lot of money;so I guess,in part,it's a self-answering question.
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jonmerritt
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Auto accidents THAT is gruesome! Much worse than gunshots! But we are more acceptible to auto "accidents", because all gunshots are crime related according to the anti's. But its an accident to drive through a crowd, kill 10 people and maim many others. Dam SUV's we need to ban the SUV's
anythingshiny
Member
having been a nurse for a number of years, I have seen my share of GSW. Some were just not what i expected..a young guy, gang related had tried "mexican carry" with his 45 after a drive by. I expected to see a HUGE exit wound..but didnt. The entry was powder burned but not at all impressive and the exit was not as clinically impressive as I thought a 45 at contact would be.
The really impressive damage was the internal destruction. He lived, but was a mess for a long while.
But yes, I agree..it is sobering to see the effects up close. Having grown up hunting, I have dressed my share of game..but it is very different seening a human body with holes where holes dont normally belong.
My experience as an RN and the effects of GSW on the human body does not change or alter the reason I carry though, probabaly strengthens my resolve.
The really impressive damage was the internal destruction. He lived, but was a mess for a long while.
But yes, I agree..it is sobering to see the effects up close. Having grown up hunting, I have dressed my share of game..but it is very different seening a human body with holes where holes dont normally belong.
My experience as an RN and the effects of GSW on the human body does not change or alter the reason I carry though, probabaly strengthens my resolve.
I sincerely hope that no one read my post as second guessing or questioning any of our rights and decisions to own or carry guns, it was not my intent. I just thought I'd share my personal experience and emotional response to it. It was a pretty moving experience and just helped to discuss it with like minded people, thanks for all the replies and discussion that entailed.
Loosedhorse
member
OP:
I think it would be great if this type of exposure was routine for anyone planning on using firearms for self-defense.
The Hollywood defensive shoot (when I was a kid--I think we had talkies by then) was one-shot, guy grabs his chest, and falls over, nice and neat. Or grabs his shoulder, if he received a "flesh wound," or just shook his hand repeatedly if the gun was just shot out of it.
In reality, if you shoot someone in self-defense, expect the wrongful-death plaintiff's attorney to show some pretty gruesome morgue pictures (especially if you used a shotgun or rifle) while explaining what a horrible, painful death you inflicted on the decedent.
Or, just as likely, expect the shot attacker to show the pictures HIMSELF, from the witness chair, as he describes his pain, suffering, and permanent disability. All because of you.
This is not to discourage anyone from carrying (it certainly doesn't discourage me, and I think we most of us have this pretty clear)--but we should all know what it means to shoot someone.
(I agree with ants--I do not think of myself as a killer, my training, abilities, and mindset notwithstanding.)
I think it would be great if this type of exposure was routine for anyone planning on using firearms for self-defense.
The Hollywood defensive shoot (when I was a kid--I think we had talkies by then) was one-shot, guy grabs his chest, and falls over, nice and neat. Or grabs his shoulder, if he received a "flesh wound," or just shook his hand repeatedly if the gun was just shot out of it.
In reality, if you shoot someone in self-defense, expect the wrongful-death plaintiff's attorney to show some pretty gruesome morgue pictures (especially if you used a shotgun or rifle) while explaining what a horrible, painful death you inflicted on the decedent.
Or, just as likely, expect the shot attacker to show the pictures HIMSELF, from the witness chair, as he describes his pain, suffering, and permanent disability. All because of you.
This is not to discourage anyone from carrying (it certainly doesn't discourage me, and I think we most of us have this pretty clear)--but we should all know what it means to shoot someone.
(I agree with ants--I do not think of myself as a killer, my training, abilities, and mindset notwithstanding.)
deerhunter61
Member
JeffDilla
You made this statement..... "I know we're all responsible gun owners and feel it's up to us to teach likewise."
You are making a pretty big assumption that all gun owners on this forum are responsible and also that you believe that all want to teach others likewise.
This is something we would all like but because this is a cross section of people even though a lot I am sure are responsible not all are...
The very things you mentioned and the destruction that firearms do cause does need to be mentioned as often as possible. So I am glad you shared your experience.
Thanks,
You made this statement..... "I know we're all responsible gun owners and feel it's up to us to teach likewise."
You are making a pretty big assumption that all gun owners on this forum are responsible and also that you believe that all want to teach others likewise.
This is something we would all like but because this is a cross section of people even though a lot I am sure are responsible not all are...
The very things you mentioned and the destruction that firearms do cause does need to be mentioned as often as possible. So I am glad you shared your experience.
Thanks,
Deerhunter61, you're welcome, and you're right, I made a blanket statement without realizing it when I said we're all responsible gun owners. I guess I just didn't want to step on toes in posting what had the potential to be a touchy post to begin with. My bad
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