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A Request: 5.7x28, FN lovers

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by SHusky57, Sep 5, 2009.

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  1. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    This isn't meant to be inflammatory. I'm interested in the PS90 because I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.

    I've thought about a Stag 15L, but I am not a huge fan of ARs.
    I realize the 5.7x28 is a compromise round, I just want to know if it performs on par with pistol ammo. It was designed to replace 9mm sub-guns, not the .223 carbine. I get tired of hearing "the .223 is better." Duh, it's supposed to be.

    Anyway, my request to owners of the 5.7x28....
    If you have access to gelatin tests or data, will you let me know how the SS197 (40 grain VMAX) compares to 9mm?

    Please try to get pics or all info possible. There just isn't that much data about the SS197 out there, but that's what available to civvies, and if it does what it's supposed to, might not make a bad HD round to reduce over-penetration.

    I know the 5.7x28 doesn't meet the 12" FBI standard. But do you know where the FBI standard come from? Many people cite these academic papers by Fackler and co but never read them. The 12" standard came when a 9mm bullet hit a guy in the bicep, travelled to his lung, penetrated 11.5" and stopped short of the heart.

    In other words, the problem was not that the 9mm didn't do it's job, the problem was that the perp was hit in the bicep.

    Most Americans are 10" thick, and most taliban fighters are 7" thick. We'll say fat people in leather clothing are 15" thick. Will the 5.7x28 do the job?

    The 5.7 is hard to compare to other pistol rounds because it's operating at velocities way higher than traditional pistol rounds, and it's a much lighter weight bullet.

    I swear if anyone posts that column of articles on why the 5.7x28 sucks, I will scream. For one, the articles aren't available on-line. For two, I doubt you have actually read them. For three, most of them were written in the early-mid 1990's before the SS197 - and the SS197 is what I am interested in.

    And if anyone out there has .22 mag or .17 HMR and some gelatin, why not do some tests with the Hornady VMax bullets. I know they are designed to penetrate shallowly and expand/fragment rapidly, but 7 inches then frag/expansion doesn't seem bad for a HD round at all - especially in a low-recoil platform that allows multiple shots on target rapidly.

    I know the caliber wars never end. There are British SAS guys whose 9mm hi-powers worked fine with mozambique shoots. There are American SWAT guys who won't take anything less than a .45.

    I know hunter's who say .223 will take down a hog or deer with good placement. I know hunter's who won't hunt deer or hog with anything less than 30-06.

    The question is whether the round has the adequate power to do it's job provided you do yours.
    I see the PS90 as a precision tool. Light-weight, low-recoil, accurate. The peru siege had 1-shot and 2-shot stops with the PS90. Is this because the round is way better than anything else? Probably not. Is it because it's easy to shoot accurately under stress? Probably so.

    So in summary:
    .17HMR to .223 test your VMAX bullets, especially the lower weight.
    5.7x28 please, please test the SS197.

    You are the difference between me dishing out the dough for a PS90 or getting a Stag AR. Well, you, and any other data I can find, which isn't much at all.
     
  2. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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  3. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I believe that the 5.7 is the most useless pistol round ever devised (just too small with too little mass)...like rc inferred the energy of the 5.7 is comparable to a .22WM...for a rifle I believe there are also much better cartridges, but the PS90 is a superb handling little carbine with alright ballistics. That said, if you do your job I have no doubt it will be fine for HD and such...I wouldn't try to hunt anything bigger than a coyote with it...and that is pushing it.

    I have seriously considered getting one...but in the end I just don't care for the cartridge. I still want them to come out with the PS90 in a larger caliber, then I will pick one up without hesitation. .30 Carbine would be perfect IMO. :)
     
  4. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    i'm not going to get into a caliber war discussion (i like the caliber, but people i trust have told me terminal ballistics suck, so i sold all my 5.7 stuff off)

    but... as for the ps90... i think that caliber in full-auto is super cool. (i.e. p90)
    and i think with a 50 rnd mag, it would be pretty cool just pulling the trigger really fast on the ps90. only, you can't do that on a ps90 because the trigger is crap. it feels like plastic, because it is. it's quite long. and you can go get a cup of coffee while you're waiting for it to reset. when i try hammers or doubletap with my old ps90 at the same speed i do with any of my AR15s, the 2nd pull rarely results in a bang because it hasn't reset.

    it's still a fun little gun. but it's a toy as far as i'm concerned
     
  5. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    i'm not going to get into a caliber war discussion (i like the caliber, but people i trust have told me terminal ballistics suck, so i sold all my 5.7 stuff off)

    but... as for the ps90... i think that caliber in full-auto is super cool. (i.e. p90)
    and i think with a 50 rnd mag, it would be pretty cool just pulling the trigger really fast on the ps90. only, you can't do that on a ps90 because the trigger is crap. it feels like plastic, because it is. it's quite long. and you can go get a cup of coffee while you're waiting for it to reset. when i try hammers or doubletap with my old ps90 at the same speed i do with any of my AR15s, the 2nd pull rarely results in a bang because it hasn't reset.

    it's still a fun little gun. but it's a toy as far as i'm concerned
     
  6. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    The SS195 tumbles between 1-4" which isn't a bad place to start tumbling. Total penetration is 9-10", which meets the goal of the 5.7x28 to not exit the body.

    SS197 averages about 9" of penetration and expanding to .30 cal.

    It doesn't sound impressive, but with 22lr recoil one could easily put 2-3 rounds on target quickly.
    I wish I could rent one to help me decide.
    I think too many people try to make it something it's not.

    Is it a viable 21st century replacement for the M1 Carbine?

    I think the majority of the data suggests to me that for $750-850 it wouldn't be a bad purchase.
    But for $1500-2000.... I think I should look at other options.
    Back to the damn AK or AR drawing board.
     
  7. browningguy

    browningguy Member

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    My HD weapons include both 9mm and .40 cal pistol, and .223 semi autos. I have to say though that the PS90 penetrating 9" and expanding to .35 caliber or better doesn't seem all that bad. I agree the price needs to come down to under $1k then I would have one also.
     
  8. Quiet

    Quiet Member

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    AFAIK, first time the 5.7x28mm was actually used in combat, was in 1996, when Peruvian special forces stormed the Japanese embassy in Lima to end a hostage crisis. Result = 71 of 72 hostages freed, 1 hostage KIA, 2 SOF KIA and all 14 MRTA terrorists/freedom fighters KIA.

    The leader of the MRTA was reported shot twice in the chest with a P90. Both, 5.7x28mm SS190 rounds penetrated his class 2 bulletproof vest and killed him.
    [​IMG]



    Thread jack.
    Have you looked at the...
    FN FS2000 (5.56x45mm)
    Kel-Tec RFB (7.62x51mm)
    MSAR STG556 (5.56x45mm)
    MSAR STG-E4 (5.45x39mm, 5.56x45mm, 6.8x43mm, or 7.62x39mm)
    Steyr AUG-A3 SA (5.56x45mm)
     
  9. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    I don't really want to have a collection of semi-autos. I want one all purpose. The AR gets a lot of points because it can be successfully modded for a lot of different kinds of competition.
    Most likely the gun will be put into the safe until zombies come.

    Since I only really want one, I want to buy once, cry once.

    I've looked at the MSAR, AUG, and FS2000.... if I get a .223, it will be an AR. There is just more support for the platform, more training, cheaper accessories, etc.

    The difficulty in evaluating the PS90 platform is the lack of info available. The 5.7x28 is a very specialized round and the PS90 is a very specialized weapon. In the same way that the m1 carbine was made for a specialized purpose so was the P90.

    The Peruvians made the P90 look good. For hostage rescue, the 5.7x28 may shine. 9-10" penetration and .30-.40 caliber expansion, with about half the recoil of a 9mm subgun. You're talking about the ability to put lots of rounds on target in a short amount of time, without worry of hitting bystanders - but still able to get deep enough to hit vitals.

    I believe they use SS190. For civilians it's SS195 or SS197. I am not sure which load I would prefer or which would be better for HD/Zombie duty.

    Some people think the M1 carbine is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Not an extremely powerful cartridge, but it was accurate and lightweight. It's a tradeoff I am willing to make.
    I don't need 30-06 power, what I do need is power comparable to 9mm.

    If the 5.7 SS195 or SS197 can be on par with the 9mm +p, it's a valid option.
    It's just hard, even with the brass catcher pictures to know what to make of it. I mean, .223 isn't really that hard-hitting either.

    If you need power you need a 12 gauge or a .308. The .223 and 5.7x28 do tumble, fragment, or expand - but it seems that the modern doctrine (especially in CQB) is to put rounds on target fast and accurate.

    I was almost going to run to the store and get a left-handed STAG, but my wife made me do chores and the OU game is about to start. More time to think about it.

    So to get to the point - Will SS195 or SS197 reliable destroy zombies with headshots? It's not going to blow people's arms off or have knockdown power. But it seems capable of surgical accuracy and speedy handling, and given that - if put on target, will it do the job?

    Thanks for your e-pinions. I almost saved $1000, and now I have to think some more about whether I ultimately want the PS90 more.
     
  10. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

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    You can on an AR57. :D

    It's a fun range gun, and I wouldn't want someone blasting away at me with one, no matter who thinks it's a pitiful little round, which it might be.

    If I was going to pick it or my 9MM AR up to defend myself, it would be the 9MM, just cause. I have no proof it is better, but I have more faith in the 9MM round at 1300 to 1400 FPS.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2009
  11. Bad Penny 03

    Bad Penny 03 Member

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    5.7x28 isn't for me, but if you like it so much just buy it.

    Why ?
    Most weapons platforms can be modded to lefty configurations.
     
  12. taliv

    taliv Moderator

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    wasn't the m1 carbine around BEFORE sliced bread?

    walkalong, yeah, i was going to mention the ar57 when i started writing, but forgot by the time i hit post! geez, my attention span... thx for reminding me
     
  13. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    The way I see it the .30Carbine is the rimless equivalent of the .357 Magnum...for good or for bad. For me it is just about the ideal HD round, marginal (but capable with good placement) for deer and such. There is about 5 hundredths of difference in OAL...make it fit...I'll buy it! Like I say the PS90 has outstanding handling characteristics...if I was more confident in the round it would be the rifle of choice without question. :)
     
  14. Bad Penny 03

    Bad Penny 03 Member

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    I like the .30carb round. My dislikes of the P90 platform aside (slow mag changes etc,) I'd could possibly be persuaded to buy a P90 in that chambering. I'd prefer a 10mm, though.

    I still don't know why they haven't just made a 5.56 version. Who cares if the mag is wider...the Monolith Arms p-12 doesn't seem unwieldy.
    There's gotta be a market for them.

    Or they could go the other route....458 socom or 45 grizzly win mag with a single column mag.
     
  15. Z-Michigan

    Z-Michigan Member

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    The 5.7x28 behaves differently than common pistol calibers and is not perfectly comparable. However, I sure wouldn't want to be hit with one. I would consider it a reasonable short-range self-defense choice if you think its other attributes work well for you.

    FWIW, I have shot a PS90 and hated the trigger and ergonomics, and found recoil to be surprising for the little cartridge. YMMV.

    On the plus side, the cost of FN ammo is coming down a bit, and one or two other companies now load 5.7 ammo. However, if you would ever consider reloading, read all the warnings on 5.7 before you buy one. I have not seen more "danger! danger!" warnings for reloading any caliber other than 5.7x28. It appears that it is incredibly sensitive to slight overcharges or slight bullet seating issues.
     
  16. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    I've never shot it, I don't know if I would like it. I definitely wouldn't like it if I trusted it to stop a horde of zombies and it had inadequate penetration to do the job.
    Also, I like shooting a 22 LR but that doesn't make it a good choice for HD.
    Other than e-rumors, it's hard to get objective data on the 5.7, I was just hoping I might find more online.

    FWIW, the AR seems like a better option. If I ever want to do 3-gun competition, the extra distance of the AR coupled with the quick mag changes seem like too big of an advantage.
    And on top of that, I would pay about half as much.

    I've heard the opinions of many 5.7 lovers and haters. I've seen a few gelatin tests and heard a few anecdotal stories. But not enough near the amount of information available for the 5.56 - so I'm just left with nothing conclusive. $2000 is too much to pay for nothing conclusive. FN might pick up more civilian sales if they release some testing on the 5.7 rounds other than FPS and energy (those numbers aren't helpful for picking a defensive caliber, penetration/expansion is more what I want to know).

    My thoughts are that FN is holding back because a) the Brady Bunch hates the 5.7 and they don't want it to be classified as a "super-AP death ray" bullet or b) the 5.7 is a sub-par performer.
     
  17. Jguy101

    Jguy101 Member

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    If all you need is 9mm power, you should look at the Beretta CX-4 Storm. It has ejection ports on both sides and swappable safety and mag release, so turning it into a leftie gun is pretty easy.
     
  18. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    Good gawd...recoil would be tremendous...sign me up...I love a nice thumper. :D

    I have shot both, and like Z-Mich. said (about the PS90) find the recoil to be worse than expected for both...but certainly not bad. The ergonomics of the PS90 were better for me, but the trigger was better on the Beretta. The Beretta is also available in .40S&W and .45ACP if that floats your boat, but I have only fired the 9mm version. Both are fun guns, the CX-4 is better for defense, has a better trigger, and is easier on the wallet. OTOH the PS90 has better handling, shorter OAL, and a higher "cool factor". As much as I like the FN platform I would opt for the Beretta (or something else) rather than the PS90...or wait and hope for a better caliber in the PS90 or [more likely] the release of the [touted to be better (but what isn't)] Kel-Tec RFB chambered in lesser cartridges such as... .260Rem., .243Win., 7.62x39mm, .223Rem., 6.5 Grendel, and 6.8mm Rem. SPC....but you could be waiting for a while...the .308Win. version is just beginning to hit the market (with any real numbers). :)
     
  19. SHusky57

    SHusky57 Member

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    If I am going to pay $600 for a PCC might as well put up the dough for an AR.
     
  20. HGUNHNTR

    HGUNHNTR Member

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    The 5.7 is a great round. It does not have any magical properties such as the fabled .308, or .45ACP. It doesn't instantly vaporize an assailant at the sight of the firearm.

    I have had excellent success hunting with this round, and I have no problem having it as my bedside gun.

    Would a .223 be better choice??????. If you hunt deer with a .223 would using a 30-06, maybe be a better choice......maybe sometimes. The 5.7 is a great caliber to pick on because it is easy, especially for people that read to many gun rags, and believe bad guys shrug of anything under 40 S&W.

    I enjoy shooting my 5.7 more than just about any other gun I have, and honestly, thats why I bought it. I find myself target shooting and hunting more than I find myself in gunfights.
     
  21. PTK

    PTK Member

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    I own a USG 5.7 and an SBR PS90. I've done ballistic testing (recent, with 10% gelatin, 3.65" penetration with .177 BB at 588FPS) and the SS197 is nothing to sneeze at. 21 rounds out of a pistol is certainly capable of defeating a threat, as is 51 rounds out of the carbine.

    For the "exotic" ammo, there's some truly amazing ammunition out there from one company - 55gr at 2300FPS from the 10.3" barrel, 2050FPS from the pistol. Read that again; the carbine is equivalent to ballistics of the M193 from a 10.5" barrel, the pistol is only slightly less.

    I feel fine carrying my choice. :)
     
  22. Bad Penny 03

    Bad Penny 03 Member

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    If you like it and it fills your needs , more power too you.

    Personally, I can't get excited about a .22 under 3k/3,100 fps.
    Let alone straddling 2k.
    At least for self defense.

    Sounds like a fun plinker though.
     
  23. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I agree BP 03...funny that the thread calls for 5.7x28 "lovers" and few that posted here (not excluding myself) actually like the round. :)
     
  24. Bad Penny 03

    Bad Penny 03 Member

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    I know. I don't want to be a jerk, and I want to like the rounds...but I just can't get there.
    That said, I'll probably buy 2 of each weapon and end up plinking with them exclusively.

    Hey, at least I didn't make fun of the Peruvian guys with the runny mascara.
    :D
     
  25. Maverick223

    Maverick223 Member

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    I'm with you, great handling little carbine...fun to play with, hunt squirrels, et cetera...well thats about it. :D
     
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