This isn't meant to be inflammatory. I'm interested in the PS90 because I'm left handed and it's really hard finding a true ambidextrous rifle out there.
I've thought about a Stag 15L, but I am not a huge fan of ARs.
I realize the 5.7x28 is a compromise round, I just want to know if it performs on par with pistol ammo. It was designed to replace 9mm sub-guns, not the .223 carbine. I get tired of hearing "the .223 is better." Duh, it's supposed to be.
Anyway, my request to owners of the 5.7x28....
If you have access to gelatin tests or data, will you let me know how the SS197 (40 grain VMAX) compares to 9mm?
Please try to get pics or all info possible. There just isn't that much data about the SS197 out there, but that's what available to civvies, and if it does what it's supposed to, might not make a bad HD round to reduce over-penetration.
I know the 5.7x28 doesn't meet the 12" FBI standard. But do you know where the FBI standard come from? Many people cite these academic papers by Fackler and co but never read them. The 12" standard came when a 9mm bullet hit a guy in the bicep, travelled to his lung, penetrated 11.5" and stopped short of the heart.
In other words, the problem was not that the 9mm didn't do it's job, the problem was that the perp was hit in the bicep.
Most Americans are 10" thick, and most taliban fighters are 7" thick. We'll say fat people in leather clothing are 15" thick. Will the 5.7x28 do the job?
The 5.7 is hard to compare to other pistol rounds because it's operating at velocities way higher than traditional pistol rounds, and it's a much lighter weight bullet.
I swear if anyone posts that column of articles on why the 5.7x28 sucks, I will scream. For one, the articles aren't available on-line. For two, I doubt you have actually read them. For three, most of them were written in the early-mid 1990's before the SS197 - and the SS197 is what I am interested in.
And if anyone out there has .22 mag or .17 HMR and some gelatin, why not do some tests with the Hornady VMax bullets. I know they are designed to penetrate shallowly and expand/fragment rapidly, but 7 inches then frag/expansion doesn't seem bad for a HD round at all - especially in a low-recoil platform that allows multiple shots on target rapidly.
I know the caliber wars never end. There are British SAS guys whose 9mm hi-powers worked fine with mozambique shoots. There are American SWAT guys who won't take anything less than a .45.
I know hunter's who say .223 will take down a hog or deer with good placement. I know hunter's who won't hunt deer or hog with anything less than 30-06.
The question is whether the round has the adequate power to do it's job provided you do yours.
I see the PS90 as a precision tool. Light-weight, low-recoil, accurate. The peru siege had 1-shot and 2-shot stops with the PS90. Is this because the round is way better than anything else? Probably not. Is it because it's easy to shoot accurately under stress? Probably so.
So in summary:
.17HMR to .223 test your VMAX bullets, especially the lower weight.
5.7x28 please, please test the SS197.
You are the difference between me dishing out the dough for a PS90 or getting a Stag AR. Well, you, and any other data I can find, which isn't much at all.
I've thought about a Stag 15L, but I am not a huge fan of ARs.
I realize the 5.7x28 is a compromise round, I just want to know if it performs on par with pistol ammo. It was designed to replace 9mm sub-guns, not the .223 carbine. I get tired of hearing "the .223 is better." Duh, it's supposed to be.
Anyway, my request to owners of the 5.7x28....
If you have access to gelatin tests or data, will you let me know how the SS197 (40 grain VMAX) compares to 9mm?
Please try to get pics or all info possible. There just isn't that much data about the SS197 out there, but that's what available to civvies, and if it does what it's supposed to, might not make a bad HD round to reduce over-penetration.
I know the 5.7x28 doesn't meet the 12" FBI standard. But do you know where the FBI standard come from? Many people cite these academic papers by Fackler and co but never read them. The 12" standard came when a 9mm bullet hit a guy in the bicep, travelled to his lung, penetrated 11.5" and stopped short of the heart.
In other words, the problem was not that the 9mm didn't do it's job, the problem was that the perp was hit in the bicep.
Most Americans are 10" thick, and most taliban fighters are 7" thick. We'll say fat people in leather clothing are 15" thick. Will the 5.7x28 do the job?
The 5.7 is hard to compare to other pistol rounds because it's operating at velocities way higher than traditional pistol rounds, and it's a much lighter weight bullet.
I swear if anyone posts that column of articles on why the 5.7x28 sucks, I will scream. For one, the articles aren't available on-line. For two, I doubt you have actually read them. For three, most of them were written in the early-mid 1990's before the SS197 - and the SS197 is what I am interested in.
And if anyone out there has .22 mag or .17 HMR and some gelatin, why not do some tests with the Hornady VMax bullets. I know they are designed to penetrate shallowly and expand/fragment rapidly, but 7 inches then frag/expansion doesn't seem bad for a HD round at all - especially in a low-recoil platform that allows multiple shots on target rapidly.
I know the caliber wars never end. There are British SAS guys whose 9mm hi-powers worked fine with mozambique shoots. There are American SWAT guys who won't take anything less than a .45.
I know hunter's who say .223 will take down a hog or deer with good placement. I know hunter's who won't hunt deer or hog with anything less than 30-06.
The question is whether the round has the adequate power to do it's job provided you do yours.
I see the PS90 as a precision tool. Light-weight, low-recoil, accurate. The peru siege had 1-shot and 2-shot stops with the PS90. Is this because the round is way better than anything else? Probably not. Is it because it's easy to shoot accurately under stress? Probably so.
So in summary:
.17HMR to .223 test your VMAX bullets, especially the lower weight.
5.7x28 please, please test the SS197.
You are the difference between me dishing out the dough for a PS90 or getting a Stag AR. Well, you, and any other data I can find, which isn't much at all.
