Looking for legitimate info on 5.7x28 ballistics.

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Orion8472

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I am looking for legitimate information on how effective the 5.7x28 [specifically the SS197SR] round is for defensive purposes. I've heard both of the sides "yes it is good and does lots of damage" and the "it is just for plinking only". . . . but I want to really know how it is for the defensive role.

Please offer credible sources. And as a given, the Fort Hood insident. Would like more than just that.

Thanks for whomever has quality information. As I said, I have heard the opinions before. Please keep it to legitimate information [then you can base an opinion off of that].

Looking for info for this round out of the pistol, not the PS90 or P90. Thanks again!
 
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Orion, I don't know how credible I am, but will share what little I know from personal experience. I had the use of a new 5.7 pistol for several months for T&E purposes. We did not test it in ballistic gel, etc. I did chronograph 30 rounds of the FN SS192 JHP ammo in the pistol. It averaged 2025 fps. The pistol was reliable and displayed very light recoil. I did not test the SS197SR round. This is about the only quality information I have on the pistol and ammunition...
 
Try www.brassfetcher.com. Check out the summary table. It has info on terminal ballistics from both long and short barrels.

External ballistics can be checked with any ballistics calculator. I generally use the one at www.hornady.com.

Hopefully others with experience using the pistol/cartridge will chime in so you'll have a mix of lab and hands on results.

Happy New Year.

Dan
 
Someone will be along shortly to compare it to a .22.

LMAO! Yeah no doubt.

That meat shoulder is one of my favorite pics to show FiveSeven haters.

"Yeah, sure, it's sort of like a 22, except a 22 LR doesn't leave a massive 4" hole in the bad guy's innards when the round fragments."

There's been pics posted on here, of hunters who have taken deer with them, "dead right there."

It's all about shot placement, just as with any gun, but still; something that puts a big permanent crush cavity like that, deep inside, is pretty remarkable.
 
A favorite handgun of mexican drug cartels, in all seriousness thought there was someone whom posted several drug war pictures (graphic) of the dead which had been shot/killed by the 5.7x28mm. But I don't think they are available to view anymore. LM
 
It's a hollow point varmint bullet doing the better part of 2000fps --what's there to wonder about? :confused: :scrutiny: Are there any deformable rounds of any size going that speed which wouldn't be considered "effective" in terms of damage? 5.7 is very low recoil, so that's a big plus, but the pistol is loud and flashy, a demonstrable minus. The pistol is also simply big, making it less than ideal for concealed carry or some peoples' hands, but I'm certain it is done successfully every day.

Are there figures backing up the cartel stuff? I'm not denying it or anything, just wondering if it's more of a stereotype than a fact (and worth verifying too, given the propensity of certain groups to demonize this particular handgun by any deceit possible) sort of like gangsters' Tommy guns which were only featured in a tiny fraction of highly publicized/romanticized crimes, while cheap and small weapons actually carried the day as always. I'd want a P90 instead of a five-seven every time were I a hood living outside the law, and that wouldn't cost much more, either.

TCB
 
Thanks for the replies so far. Again, I'm talking about the SS!97SR [blue tip] out of the Five Seven pistol. It is probably doing around 1700fps in that configuration.

I've heard about the cartel/mexican claims about this gun, but haven't seen any sources on it either.

I currently have one and am back and forth on whether or not I keep it. I am only mildly excited when I shoot it, and ammo is scarce and expensive. But I do have a goodly supply of the SS197SR, so have considered it a "SHTF" weapon [please do not sidetrack this thread into a SHTF thread, which tend to get locked]. However, the likelihood of that tool being needed is exceptionally low, and may not be worth the cost of this pistol.

Anyway, keep the posts coming if you have relevant info. Thanks!
 
60 cents a round for good premium defense ammo isn't bad, BTW. Considering what the other major calibers cost for premium rounds. I just spent $1.34 a shot on some 300 AAC blackout subsonic loaded with 220gr Sierra MK's....
 
I have plenty of ammo for the pistol I have. The question is . . . will it [SS197SR] be effective? Most likely yes, from what others have said. Would I ever have to put that into practice, . . . . I hope not only no, . . . but HELL no!

*Thinking to myself, "then why do I keep it"? :scrutiny:*
 
I have no doubt SS197 would be effective. If I did, I wouldn't be sitting right next to my FiveSeven right now with 20 in the gun and 20 in a spare mag next to it.

I have 5 kids running around the house, dogs, etc. The fragmentation "feature" of the round is my favorite. It means there's a reduced risk of a ricochet or through&through hitting someone I care about.

The pistol is damned accurate. The SS195 rounds were better for accuracy in the FiveSeven pistol, but the SS197 will still reach out to a hundred yards and is accurate enough to engage with, if you shoot with the gun supported by something. (The bigger brother PS90 can get torso hits reliably at 300 yards with the factory optics, BTW). That little cartridge is surprisingly precise.
 
Trent, that is quite true. I have no issues with accuracy with the pistol [and SS197SR]. And it can carry alot, . . . does have the fragmentation characteristic, and light enough weight to carry several mags and boxes of ammo. It's a true possitive of the pistol. . . . . .that [once again] I hope I never have to prove out.

I appreciate the quality information, guys.
 
The only downside, in my opinion is the size of the handgun. It's a big gun, and not easy to conceal, even for a 185 lb 6' tall man. The grip size also makes it hard to use for people with smaller (or stubbier) hands.

Many people site ammo cost as a turnoff, and to some degree I can see this. But.. The ammo cost is cheaper than comparable defensive ammunition of other calibers - Most 45 ACP defensive loads are sold in qty 20 or 25 per box, and cost over a buck a round. It is a fair comparison because 40gr Hornaday V-Max is not exactly a bulk plinker bullet. Those are premium projectiles which have a very decisive terminal effect.

Compare the price of qty 20, 223 ammunition with Hornaday V-Max and suddenly the $29 a box for qty 50 5.7x28mm doesn't seem quite so bad. :)
 
Trent, . . . I agree with your post, 100%. You can get away with carrying it in the winter, under a jacket, but even then, you'd have to leave your jacket on the whole time.

Front the aspect of the round, and it being a defensive round, then yes, even $30 a box for 50 rounds isn't all that bad.
 
Yeah, it's scathing, but that is the response from the real-world use of the round and something that anyone would want to investigate before deciding on the option. It's about as 'legitimate' an opinion as you'll get.

Since I do not regard myself as an expert in the field, I tend to go with what the folks who devote their time to the task of professional research in the field have to say.

While I believe that a well-trained person could use the 5.7 round with somewhat reasonable effect, most of us are not capable of that level of performance. There is an "embarrassment of riches" in suitable service weapons and premium ammo (e.g.: Federal HST, Speer Gold Dot, Winchester PDX1, etc) to choose from that help us to 'compensate' for that "deficiency" so why not go with what is proven on the streets today?

I hope that you find the answers that you are looking for.
 
Orion8472 said:
That's a rather scathing report on the round, I'd say.

No it isn't. It's just sensational quotes. For example:

Multiple rounds are required to incapacitate. This means significantly more training, which translates into significantly more ammunition expended, at a higher cost per round and with limited sources available. To ensure immediate incapacitation, brain shots will need to be emphasized. Which requires more training, and also more insertion of luck into the equation- especially dealing with multiple opponents.

Name one handgun round that isn't true for? What handgun round causes instant incapacitation without a CNS hit? Hell, that applies to most rifles that don't have BMG in their name.
 
There have been plenty of instances of people (bad guys, good guys, women, teenagers, old people, young people) absorbing large amounts of bullets from various calibers and surviving (including rifles).

Caliber doesn't mean squat if you don't hit the vital areas of the body.

Being able to rapidly put rounds on target accurately, trumps caliber.

Every. Single. Time.

Just because you have 20 rounds, or 17 rounds, or 13 rounds, doesn't mean you can just spray and pray. You have to hit accurately to bring something down.

Two things bring about incapacitation - central nervous system hit (preferably brain stem), or loss of blood from a major vessel being punctured or severed.

I recently shot a deer with a bow, hit about 1" low of where I needed to. I punctured both lungs cleanly (one lung had a 2" gaping hole in it). But that deer ran *3 miles* before it finally dropped . Why?! How!? Because, I missed the heart by an inch and I didn't get any major blood vessels.

I don't care if you are shooting a 45, a 9mm, or a 22 long rifle. If you don't hit the central nervous system or bust a major blood vessel, the bad guy isn't going down fast. Even if you destroy the heart's pumping capability they still have 30 seconds or more of willful, conscious directed action before they are rendered unconscious. (One exception is the aorta, if you sever it the shock of the massive drop in blood pressure can render a person unconscious faster than a pierced heart).

I've put a lot of thought in to what I keep for home defense, and while I have other options, the 5.7x28mm makes a heck of a lot of sense for my layout and needs.

I've told this story numerous times on THR, but it is worth repeating.

A neighbor of mine was a victim of an home intrusion a while back. *FIVE* armed bad guys came in at 3 AM after the father went off to work third shift, while the mother and two daughters were asleep. The bad guys were specifically after the guns in the house. The bad guys know that police response time out here can be as bad as 1/2 hour.

Earlier that day the same "crew" hit a house in town, again going after guns, and only guns. That was in broad daylight. So it doesn't really matter to them if it's day or night.

5 on 1 odds sucks by anyone's book. And a 6 shot revolver, or 12 shot 45 ACP isn't going to cut it, considering there is no such thing as a "one shot stop" (as explained above).

Which leaves me basically two decent choices; 9x19 at 16 round capacity (CZ75 on the bedstand), and 5.7x28mm at 20 round capacity (which is right next to me as I type). I keep the 5.7x28mm next to me in the living room because if someone kicks in the door mid-day, I don't have any guarantee my 5 kids or wife will be able to seek cover immediately. I don't want over penetration. Period.

At night, when the kids are in bed, a 9x19 makes better sense. The kids are in bed, and have hard spots to get behind (dressers, book shelves).

If I run empty or go down, there is a PS90 right next to the bed for my wife to use. My three older children and wife are all familiar with it, and can use it just fine. (I used to have a 12 gauge but one trip to the range with the wife and kids, and I unloaded it and put it in the safe. They can't use it effectively with defense loads.)

Anyway, we all have to examine our environments and threat profiles and make the appropriate calls. If I lived alone, I'd have more options. If our "threat profile" was single intruders, I'd still have the revolvers out. But our threat profile is multiple intruders.

We have no reliable "backup" out here. Help is a phone call and a half hour away. So I have to make sure that against a determined group of home invaders, intent on using lethal force, that I can respond and have a fighting chance against a larger group.

Which means training.. training.. training. And planning. And proper selection of gear.

Is the 5.7x28mm the "right choice" for everyone? Hell no. No more so than 9x19, or 45ACP, or 12 gauge, or 223 would be.

Can it be the "right choice?" Yes. I have over two dozen different calibers of rifles and handguns in the safe from 22LR to 50 BMG. I could take my pick of any one of them, but after serious thought and consideration, two particular ones stand out very clearly against the rest, for my immediate needs.
 
I agree wholeheartedly; the real, demonstrable difference in recoil and follow up shot speed in a compact round like 5.7 would seem to be far more impactful in a multiple-shot sortie than the semi-questionable (but probably basically true) difference in terminal ballistics. I did an odds test once for fun, and found that there was simply more variance available on the accuracy end of things than the damage end to give one side more of an advantage. It's possible for practice and a platform to give you twice the accuracy and speed of an opponent; it's highly unlikely any handgun round does twice the damage (or 4X, if you try to match both speed and accuracy advantages) as the 5.7 on average.

What kind of holsters have y'all tried for the five-seven? Since it, a S&W TRR8 N frame, and possibly a Hi-Power are the only hand guns I'm particularly interested in shooting regularly, I'm somewhat determined to figure out a way to conceal the thing :D

TCB
 
Dr. Roberts is pretty down on 5.7. He's definitely an expert in the field. There may be other experts that disagree, but I've never seen their writings on the topic. Dr. Roberts is pretty east to Google and find. He posts as Doc GKR around the web if I remember right.

I think also most of the serious military and LEO groups have moved away from it which is telling.

Most of the pro-5.7 stuff I read is from nonacademic sources/individuals. Kind of akin to the grassroots the .357 SIG enjoys.
 
eldon519 said:
I think also most of the serious military and LEO groups have moved away from it which is telling.

A quick wiki check shows more than a fair shares of serious agencies using it.

eldon519 said:
Kind of akin to the grassroots the .357 SIG enjoys.

There are quite a few agencies using that too. I wouldn't exactly call the Texas DPS and USSS grassroots.
 
Doctor Roberts is highly respected in terminal ballistics by his peers.

My biggest issue with the 5.7 is that there are so many other options out that offer increased advantages over this caliber.

For pistol use, 9x19 has the same muzzle energy in a standard load but when you look at the +P and +P+ offerings and all of the different pistol configurations, it makes it difficult for me to see why you would want to carry 5.7 in a pistol.

For a rifle or carbine, 5.56 is a little bit harder to control but the energy advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
 
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