A Request: 5.7x28, FN lovers

[panzermk2]

Here are the specs for 2 of our most best carry rounds. The performance of the 28gr out of the pistol is stunning. There is no sound but these vids were testing vid to show performnce.


Round: S4 UltraRapTOR

Type: 28gr Aluminum Core HP

Application: Law Enforcement Duty round designed to penetrate obstacles commonly encountered on duty, windshields, car doors etc. and still perform on soft tissue after penetration of obstacle.

Capable of defeating 30 layers of Kevlar while still penetrating 8.0 inches of 10% ballistic gelatin"

FiveseveN Pistol 2,600fps - 405 Ft-Lb’s

P90 3,053fps - 560 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 3,340fps - 666 Ft-Lb’s

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
8.5" penetration, with 4.5" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQuhudjqmiI

FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ULTRA RAPTOR 10% 14"x6" gel block test
Control shot: .17cal BB 4.2" penetration
Point Blank Level ll vest shot: 8.0" penetration, with 3.3" cavity at widest section.
Complete separation of the core from the jacket.
The jacket has completely fragmented in to fine shrapnel.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmh4vw56Pn8



Round: ProtecTOR

Type: 40 grain V-max

Application: Self Defense / Law Enforcement / Civilain designed to provide good penetration with fragmentation while reducing chances of over penetration.

Capable of defeating 30 layers of Kevlar while still penetrating 9.0 inches of 10% ballistic gelatin

FiveseveN Pistol 2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,538 fps - 572 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 2,762 fps - 678 Ft-Lb’s


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR 10% 13"x6" gel block test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Penetrated all 13", and created 3.3" cavity measured at widest section.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-JuvKWckwg8


FsN USG Pistol 15 feet
5.7x28 ProtecTOR 10% gel test
Control shot.17cal BB 4.5" penetration
Point Blank level II Vest
Penetration 9.0", and created 1.7" cavity measured at widest section

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elKgG2W6_N0

 

[Girodin]

Well you can thank Bama for the back order.

Hearing that makes me happy that Texas leapfrogged them in the BCS

 

[panzermk2]

Combat Handguns Feb addition on stands now did an article on the FivesevenN pistol and Elite Ammunition.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Not to go bringing up alternatives again, but note that MSAR (they of AUG-clone fame) is soon to come out with a blowback pistol-calibre AUG which takes Glock magazines.

And good news for the sinister-handed: it ejects straight downwards, so ambidextrous.

The pistol-calibre AUGs are supposed to retail around $999, so the price is competitive to the PS90.

 

[panzermk2]

For two very good reasons.

1st) The P90/PS90 is much smaller and compact modern design, not modern looking.

2nd) The 5.7x28 round that was designed for it. The 5.7 out performs the 9mm so much and in so many ways it's not even a fair comparison.

 

[Mp7]

i think the concept of the 5,7 is lost in a semi-auto.

It´s an assault-gun ... take a team 6 and storm a buidling
or do house2house fighting ... vs enemy in bodyarmor ...
most likely battle is over
within the 300rds that your team has onboard.

 

[Girodin]

I'll try to post pics but I have an Aug clone and a PS90 they are virtually the same size. Comparing to a P90 is silly since most people do not have the SBR also you ought to use the number for a 10" barrel not a 16" when you talk about performance.

From my experience shooting living things a 10mm round pees all over the 5.7 (factory ammo that I can buy as opposed to ammo I cannot actually buy) when it comes to terminal ballistics.

The .223 makes the 5.7 look silly.

That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).

 

[Girodin]

As for modern the aug was designed in the 70s, and the P90 in the 80s so modern is relative and it is not as if the p90 is exactly cutting edge space-age technology

 

[panzermk2]

Girodin


I'll try to post pics but I have an Aug clone and a PS90 they are virtually the same size. Comparing to a P90 is silly since most people do not have the SBR also you ought to use the number for a 10" barrel not a 16" when you talk about performance.


Please try to pay attention the numbers I posted were for the PISTOL


Girodin

From my experience shooting living things a 10mm round pees all over the 5.7 (factory ammo that I can buy as opposed to ammo I cannot actually buy) when it comes to terminal ballistics.




Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.


Girodin

The .223 makes the 5.7 look silly.



And 7.62x51 makes .223 look silly your point? Who brought up the .233? pathetic straw man argument there. The 5.7 is to replace the 9mm


Girodin
That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).


Again a pretty good example of you having no damn clue what you talking about. But keep talking it’s fun to read

 

[rfurtkamp]

Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.

To be honest, if I expect to deal with vests in some fantasy scenario, I'm bringing a rifle with a rifle cartridge.

That said, remember you're representing your company here. It's not coming off well - I wouldn't purchase based on attitude alone.

 

[Girodin]

Please try to pay attention the numbers I posted were for the PISTOL

The following is a direct quote from your post you refer to numbers for all three

FiveseveN Pistol 2,092fps - 389 Ft-Lb’s

P90 2,538 fps - 572 Ft-Lb’s

PS90 2,762 fps - 678 Ft-Lb’s

That said, I ought to clarify, when I said "you" it was bad English, I ought to have said, "one." My sole point was that people need to be sure they are making the right comparisons, i.e. if we are talking about the size advantages of the 10" then make sure we are comparing those numbers.

Since you brought up the 10mm and my company also makes it I can tell you that no the 10mm does not pee all over the 5.7. In fact a level II vest will stop ANY 10mm including 10mm magnum.

I haven't shot any animals with vests. Further the effects after it penetrates said animals non kevlar hides is DRAMATICALLY different.

Furthermore you will note I made the comparison with factory FN ammo widely available which does not have the armor piercing capabilities of other 5.7 ammo (which is not available for purchase so it would be pretty moot if I encountered a armored BG right now).

Lastly, if I had reason to believe I needed to shoot people sporting body armor I would not be reaching for my PS90 or any of my pistol caliber carbines anyways. Such a threat would make me desire a more capable round.

I do not think many people on here are going to buy the PC Aug clones with serious defensive uses in mind (and even fewer are doing for Mil, LEO, SWAT purposes) thus armor penetrating capability is really not a dispositive issue for them. If they are they are making a bad choice and would still be better served by a 5.56 rifle than a PS90.

Who brought up the .233? pathetic straw man argument there. The 5.7 is to replace the 9mm

Your website makes comparisons to it repeatedly, so I guess it was you. Here is a reminder.

ith the use of an FN P90 (2,400 fps) or PS90(2,600 fps), bullet speeds increase by several hundreds of feet per second, outperforming many similarly-sized 5.56x45mm weapons.

The 5.7x28 has served as a replacement to the MP5 (9mm .40 10mm) for some users, but so has the M4. When they are both being called on for the same role it is a fair comparison. Since no one here is looking to purchase a gun to serve as a rear echelon, non combat, but better have something and it needs to be small, gun, we can probably exclude that use.

My point is that AUG clone comes in 5.56 in a package that is similar in size to a PS90. If one is talking about using it for serious use a 5.56 round is superior, unlike stepping up to a .308 rifle one would not have dramatic difference in weight, magazine capacity or recoil.

The Aug weighs half a pound more, only holds eight fewer rounds, and just like the PS90 has no appreciable recoil to speak of. It is much louder. It is also faster to reload than the PS90 and doesn't require removing the magazine to view or access the breach. Nor does the AUG have an optic that washes out in day light. The PS90 does have an advantage in ambidexterity.

What serious users (e.g. military, swat, etc) use a 16" barreled semi auto PS90? There might be some, but I am unaware of any. Several use the P90. The P90 with a 10" barrel and full auto capabilities is a very different weapon than its neutered civilian brother. I have used both of them. What serious users are using a semi auto pistol caliber carbines (which is not the same thing as a select fire sub-machine gun)? The argument is that when put into civilian garb there are weapons the same size with much more umph. Calling it a straw man is your best retort? I guess it would be since it is a fact.

As to the .308 I concur it is a superior choice when one wants more power. One could logically say, however that a rifle like a FAL or M1A that weighs 10 pounds and holds only 20 rounds, and is much slower to make follow up shots is a big enough compromise to fore go the extra power. Although you might have a point if I ever get my hands on a RFB

Girodin
That said unless you have full auto there are much better choices for serious uses which leaves the PS90 in the same realm as pistol caliber carbines, ie just a fun gun. Bulk 9mm is notably cheaper than 5.7 factory ammo and much cheaper than any hot rod loads (that I cannot buy right now anyways which really means they would be no fun at all).


Again a pretty good example of you having no damn clue what you talking about. But keep talking it’s fun to read

Which part shows I don't know what I am talking about? (BTW cursing is not real highroad and typically shows frustration and makes one look rather inarticulate) There are not better choice for civilians looking for a "serious" use gun than a 16" barreled PS90? Or are pistol caliber carbines best suited to uses other than "fun guns." (I've owned and enjoyed several but they are bested in any serious use from hunting to SD buy rifle calibers) Or is bulk 9mm not cheaper than 5.7 ammo?

If I don't know what I am talking about at least I am not alone. Whether it is my friends who are SWAT, former SEAL, Secrete Service agents (they use the P90s BTW), or private contractors, or firearms instructors, I've never heard one of them say a PS90 was the best choice for serious use. Non have one as their personal go to gun. I have heard a few give scathing commentary.

As to one of us not knowing what we are talking about, I'm not the one that published the following

When your family’s safety depends on you, depend on the ProtecTOR from Elite Ammunition. Stopping power like this is tough to find.

Really I can find it (and then some) in any number of center fire rifle cartridges. Or

Criminals don’t stand a chance against the ProtecTOR Personal Defense round.

Not a chance? Really? I know enough people who have survived gunshot wounds and have hunted enough to know which end of the cow that statement came out of. And then there was this one:

The bullet’s speed and shape practically guarantee instant target neutralization.

Do you honestly believe that? (I guess if it is CNS shot but the same is true of a .22LR) If so I guess we know who doesn’t know what they are talking about. If not why did you put it on your website? It certainly makes you look like a shill that will say anything to push his agenda.

The fact is you are pushing a marginal round for serious uses (such as HD) when you are talking about the 5.7 in a PS90. I understand doing so is how you make money and if you are comfortable with that fine. Just don't expect everyone to agree.

Your ammo looks to increase its capabilities and my hats off to you for that. Telling people that it is practically guaranteed to incapacitate a BG go beyond the puffery of salesmanship it is irresponsible and unethical.

I don't have any real agenda. I own and really like a PS90 (I have shot the 5.7 a lot but it has never given me reason to go buy one). I own various 5.56 rifles as well as various .30 cal rifles as well as various PCCs. I have shot them a lot. I have shot living things with them. I've seen how the various rounds preform. My opinion is not binding on anyone else but I wouldn't stake my life or my loved one's on the 5.7 round even with the additional 400-500 FPS your website claims, when I have rifles that will shoot heavier bullets at significantly higher velocities. Until the laws of physics change I'm sticking by my choice.

But keep talking it’s fun to read

I must admit, that made me laugh.

 

[Girodin]

I'd also think twice about using a v max bullet for SD. It is better suited to shooting cute little varmints, what it was built for. It is used in some of the Hornady tap rounds and might be appropriate where over penetration is of maximum concern, but it doesn't get great penetration.

BTW a .223 will easily push this bullet about 600 FPS faster than your claimed result in a PS90. That should give it about 300 Ft/lbs more energy.

 

[MarineOne]

Is there any test data on the 5.7 with the AR-57 16.04 inch upper?

I would be interested in seeing this as I own one.


Thanks.




Kris

 

[gunnutery]

Not to go bringing up alternatives again, but note that MSAR (they of AUG-clone fame) is soon to come out with a blowback pistol-calibre AUG which takes Glock magazines.

And good news for the sinister-handed: it ejects straight downwards, so ambidextrous.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anywhere in that picture where the MSAR ejects downward.

Back on subject: If the 5.7 is the weak point of the design (obviously debatable) then why don't they also offer it in other calibers? As far as a comparable cartridge size would be the .30 carbine. I have no idea what kind of ballistics we'd be looking at then, but at least it'd be a heavier bullet. I do realize that the .30 carbine round was also a very debatable round performance-wise. I'm just curious if there could be other/better options for the same p90/ps90 platform.

 

[rfurtkamp]

I'm just curious if there could be other/better options for the same p90/ps90 platform.

It'd have to be smallish enough on the power scale to use a straight blowback action, limiting options.

It would have to work around the proprietary magazines, which utilize a rotary feed mechanism, and then still maintain a large enough magazine capacity to be marginally interesting.

Without the specialty caliber, the gun is unremarkable.

 

[Maverick223]

Without the specialty caliber, the gun is unremarkable.

Hmmm, me thinks just the opposite...the gun (PS-90) is unremarkable, unless you used a different cartridge (like .30Carbine).

 

[Girodin]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I can't see anywhere in that picture where the MSAR ejects downward.

Neither can I but I can see where the ejection port in the back is. The one pictured has the LH port blocked off since it is most likely running a RH bolt. If we could see the other side I'd wager there is a matching port sans the rubber cover. To the best of my knowledge they did not re-engineer them for downward ejection. If they did the location is well hidden.

 

[panzermk2]

Sorry for the delay, very busy.

Again Girodin you brought up the the .223 reference and then went afterwards to my website.

Yes as a matter of fact the fps IS in the range of the M4. The M4 I might add that is having issues since with it's shortened barrel and the military is trying to address this with bullet weights.


Cutting and pasting website adds. WOW stay away from X-streme shoks web page if the one liner form mine gives you fits.

Again the UAG I bigger and less stream lined. Having a 30 round Glock mag sticking out like like that would be a nightmare for some one moving around or exiting a vehicle. The P90/PS90 has a 50 sittin flush with the body of the weapon. I would really like to see how the AUG would eject downward. I have shot them and checked them out many times so this would be an interesting engineering feet since the mag is in the bottom. That would mean it's ejected out in front of the mag at best. Would love to see that since the P90/PS90 is completely Ambi as IS including iron back sites one both sides of the ring sight version.

 

[Gunnerpalace]

panzer, I heard on another forum a guy by the tag of DocGKR was supposed to do some test, and info?

 

[Girodin]

Again Girodin you brought up the the .223 reference and then went afterwards to my website.

No I went to your sight as soon as you posted your ad of post on here. Seeing as there is a link to it in every post I thnk it would e hard to not say the websight is an incoperated document

Cutting and pasting website adds. WOW stay away from X-streme shoks web page if the one liner form mine gives you fits.

so your companies practices are about on par with xtreme shock (save I could buy their ammo if I wanted to). Further it doesn't give me fits I simply think it either shows extreme ignorance or your willingness to spew BS to make money.

I'd still love to hear which part of my statement showed I didn't know what I was talking about.

 

[willbrink]

Fron Dr Roberts, who does ballistics testing for the FBI and other groups:

"The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......"

Cont:

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19913