A whole bunch of gun confiscation NOLA video's

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response?

A few posts above, I challenged our Law Enforcement friends to reply and it doesn't seem like any want to.

I really would like to hear them defend the confiscation action in N.O.

Then tell us again how they truly believe in the 2nd Amendment.

I'll pose the question again:

How many of you Police Officers and Sheriff's Deputies would refuse an order to confiscate the firearms from law abiding citizens in their home (or on their own property)?

How many of you would attempt to discourage others from following such an unlawful and immoral order?
 
Proficient Rifleman,

It aint going to happen. The silence is deafening.

We are on a express elevator straight down. Forget the slippery slope.
 
I can't fault them for not responding.

The sad truth IMO, as far as knocking down your door, holding you at gunpoint without a warrant, taking your guns and treating you like a hostage at Gitmo, would be the same at every law enforcement agency around the country. They follow orders and would do exactly as they were told. Of course, they are trying to feed themselves and/or their families... of course they wouldn't jeapordize their jobs over something as small as taking away firearms... hell, they 'are' trying to protect you... according to their supervisors. I'm not sure I could blame them...

It's this ingrained sense that you have to "protect your fellow brothers" in law enforement that just perpetuates the entire fraud.

I was in the military, and if faced with such a situation while I was in... I wouldn't have done it. Even being armed as a soldier/marine in an urban environment in the US is pretty risky moral ground... at least to me. With a family, and mouths to feed... who knows.. I would probably go along with whatever I was ordered to do... can't take care of your family very well as a dishonorably discharged military vet, or a cop with a revoked POST certification.

I doubt any of them care. And the great majority of them will follow whatever orders they receive. I, for one, would resist by force, anyone who attempts to enter my property without proper legal documentation and/or lawful authority. Owning my own property and choosing to stay there w/o endangering anyone else constitutes such. Someone tells me no, and they come in... that constitutes self defense IMO. I'm surprised nobody in NO stood up for themselves.... I would have. But, as I said earlier, that would probably change if I had a family to feed.

Let it happen here.
 
Seems that developing ability to hit hostiles past the range of CQB rifles would have been useful. Unfortunately, few people are trained as snipers or have the ability to fight effectively with no support and against overwhelming odds. I am of opinion that all those who participated in these confiscations should receive the death penalty, at least after the fact. They were about as evil as Sherman's tropps back in 1865. Same goes -- with more emphasis -- for those who ordered these confiscations. Unfortunately, they'll probably live out their natural lifespans instead of hanging.
 
Ah, codswallop.

A soldier or a policeman has to do his duty. Where orders may be doubtful, he should carry out the order and debate afterwards - eg by request for redress of wrongs.

How are you going to give redress to the widow of a young neighbour in the national guard, who you killed because you felt your honor required it?

Bullets are not reversible; courts can redress a lot of other things.
 
OO & PR: Considering that this is about the fourth or fifth iteration on this same confiscation, I doubt that our LEOs will bother. The horse is still dead.

For the record, none of ours supported the illegal actions of the New Orleans deal.

Art
 
A soldier or a policeman has to do his duty. Where orders may be doubtful, he should carry out the order and debate afterwards - eg by request for redress of wrongs.

How are you going to give redress to the widow of a young neighbour in the national guard, who you killed because you felt your honor required it?

Bullets are not reversible; courts can redress a lot of other things.
Click to expand...

Methinks such was the mentality in Germany in the late 30's/early 40s.
"Just doing my job" doesn't make something right. It all comes down to decisions of man, some of whom need a kick upside the head.
You can never ever disarm civilians "for their safety".
 
ChrisPer said:
Ah, codswallop.

A soldier or a policeman has to do his duty. Where orders may be doubtful, he should carry out the order and debate afterwards - eg by request for redress of wrongs.

How are you going to give redress to the widow of a young neighbour in the national guard, who you killed because you felt your honor required it?

Bullets are not reversible; courts can redress a lot of other things.
Click to expand...
"Ah, codswallop" your self, Sir.

Defending your home ... and the instruments FOR defending your home ... is not simply about "honor." It is, rather, about maintaining the tools to defend your sphere of personal influence and safety against burgeoning anarchy in the streets. If the city is flooding, reports are saying there are looters and snipers all over the city, and the police come to the door and want to remove the GUN that keeps the looters from entering my home ... do you think that's just a matter of "honor"? What about "pragmatism"?

Redress to the widow of the National Guardsman who wanted to take my rifle? Suppose I let him take it, and that night I or my wife or my children are killed by home invaders whom I no longer have the means to resist. Is that Guardsman going to make redress to ME? Is a court going to make me whole for the loss of my wife's life, because the authorities decreed that I should not be allowed to defend her?

Gimme a break, Mate. You've been paying too much mind to your PM.

By the way: I of course have no idea what the protocol is in the Australian army, but the U.S. Unform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) and Army Regulations make it VERY clear that a soldier has an affirmative duty to not obey an unlawful order. That's heavy stuff ... and it's actually not the way I recall it being taught to us during Basic Training during Vietnam. My recollection is that we were told we did not have to obey an unlawful order. However, if you actually read the UCMJ and the A.R.s, you find that, in fact, it is a requirement (not a choice or an option) to not obey an unlawful order. And, since every soldier swears an oath upon entering the service to protect and to defend the Constitution, any order which violates the Constitution is by definition unlawful.

I just did a quick Google on "UCMJ" and "Unlawful Order." Here's a quote from a forum that one of the links took me to:
i don't know how things were when PFC england went through, but i can tell you what it was like in the post-abu g army.

eight hours of mind numbingly bad powerpoint during the week before you load up on the plane for theater. every ridiculous detail of the UCMJ. the slides and presenter cover everything, but they also do a pretty good job at emphasizing what is important.

"everyone wake up for this one, it's important." monitors actually walk around the room the whole time, making sure everyone is, at the very least, opened eyed, quiet, and pointing in the right direction.

one of the things they stress over, and over, and over is that everyone in theater, soldiers and contractors alike, falls under the UCMJ and saying that you were only following orders will NEVER stand up in court.

"if you are given an order that is illegal, it is your legal obligation to violate that order and inform the chain of command." must have been said, without exageration, seven or eight times.

the accountability for the presentations is a person you have to check in with every time you enter or leave the room.

like i said, i can't vouch for whether or not this all used to happen before abu g, but it certainly does now.
posted by bryak at 3:26 AM PST on September 30
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Well said, Hawk

Your response was close to one I was about to write.

This is what I mean about the "cops are always right" attitude. When they can't argue logically, they'll appeal to your emotions.

Still they expect you to bow your head, roll over and say you're sorry.

At the real risk of sounding like an extremist nutberger, ChrisPer should remember the American War for Independence started becuase the Lawful Authority was coming to a neighborhood near you to confiscate weapons.
 
Well argued, gentlemen!

More or less the same is true in the Australian army. You are duty bound to disobey a clearly illegal order, eg to fire on noncombatants.

Nevertheless, what I said is what we were taught; I would refuse an illegal order to shoot a civilian but if I were unsure about the legality of an order for instance to arrest a civilian or disarm him I would obey my officer and fix the problem after.

And for what my opinion is worth, even in my innoffensive corner of the service, if you shot a comrade, you and the rest in your house would not be kicking back for beers for some time afterward. The scenario that killing soldiers would allow you to keep your weapons so that you could protect your family afterward is somewhat unlikely. More likely one of those Ma Deuces that do such good work in Iraq would make your position look like a pile of dust, and then you are no use to your family at all.

The 'rules for a revolution' articulated by John Stuart Mill (I think) went something like:
1) A long series of usurpations amd oppressions against the people have occurred and continue to occur.
2) Remonstrating and argument to the authorities have failed to rein in the abuses.
3) The courts are not protecting you.
4) It is generally agreed by the majority of men of good sense that it is time to take up arms.
5) The people act together to remove the problem.

In these circumstances you have right on your side to start perforating your neighbours in green or blue.

The whole 'cold dead hands' thing was no use to us when they took our Ruger 10/22s and Remington pump shotguns. We took the money and replaced them with bolt actions, doubles and 1911s.
 
"A soldier or a policeman has to do his duty. Where orders may be doubtful, he should carry out the order and debate afterwards - eg by request for redress of wrongs.

How are you going to give redress to the widow of a young neighbour in the national guard, who you killed because you felt your honor required it?

Bullets are not reversible; courts can redress a lot of other things."

I'll believe you when the citizens on N.O have their weapons returned.
"may be doubtful"? If it's blatantly in conflict with the fourth and fifth in the BOR there can't be much doubt. Those soldiers and cops have all violated their oaths to defend the constitution.

ChrisPer, when were you in the Army over here?
 
I can tell you I brought up the videos on officer.com, and was immediately attacked, in post and PM, by NOLA cops, as having no idea what I was talking about, a few videos make no differance, I wasn't there, shut up, go away, etc.
I will not follow orders to do such actions, but being a correctional sergeant, I don't think they will tap me to patrol streets, anyway.
 
Spiphel, I was in the ARES 1976-79 not the Army. Served 'overseas' - the locals were quokkas :D . I do not claim that as any level of expertise, and you know it for sure. I also have lived in Zimbabwe for a couple of years and thus can be sure of the difference between our western well-regulated government agencies and the level of usurpations and abuses that should call forth a popular armed rising.

Folks as I understand it from the blogs, the NO weapons are being returned now - as fast as bureaucracy and lying city officials permit it to happen. Doesn't make the original taking right, but there are no dead National Guardsmen or cops, and no families killed in securing the ambush sites.
 
It is a frightening thought. However I am not sure that ChrisPer understands how ingrained guns are into the US way of life. Guns are a fact of life here in the US and our governments founding fathers felt that US citizens had the right to own them. And no government officials are allowed to hinder that right.

There were many Bill of Rights issues caused by the hurricane. Amendments 1,2,3, and 4 easily. I dont know if you all saw the video of the women getting tackled on the first post but the one that is avilable through the first link is edited. And it makes the older women look a lot crazier. I will try to find some other videos but I am not suprised that it is changed.
 
Thanks, armoredman!

i appreciate your response.
My thought based on your post is: what all those other folks on officerDOTcom are saying, besides shut up, go away, etc; is that they would follow orders.
That's the scary part.
C-
 
FTF Wrote:
I doubt any of them care. And the great majority of them will follow whatever orders they receive. I, for one, would resist by force, anyone who attempts to enter my property without proper legal documentation and/or lawful authority. Owning my own property and choosing to stay there w/o endangering anyone else constitutes such. Someone tells me no, and they come in... that constitutes self defense IMO. I'm surprised nobody in NO stood up for themselves.... I would have. But, as I said earlier, that would probably change if I had a family to feed.

Let it happen here.
Click to expand...

Yup, I see this very sentiment on all the 2A forums.

I bet there were people in N.O. that felt this way too. Trouble is, if it had happened in N.O. we'd have heard about it. "AP wire... Four Police Dead After Man Defends 2A Rights".

The great social experiment has occured. We lost. They know it.

The Consititution has been relegated to toilet paper duty.

Where are all our senators that are supposed to be standing up the States, and the powers reseved to Them? Oh yeah, we have direct election of senators now, they don't really represent the States anymore, do they?




On the other hand, maybe the smart ones were prepared in advance, heeded the warning, and got out of Dodge before the SHTF. We can only hope.
 
we'd have heard about it. "AP wire... Four Police Dead After Man Defends 2A Rights".
Click to expand...

Bull hooey, it would read Crazed gunman attacks police. Followed by his complete criminal history (wonder where they get that?) in an attempt to villify him. In the medias eyes there is no justifiable motive.

Why presume the cops will be coming after the people? You guys obviously missed that NO footage with the cops barricaded on their rooftops every night.

I fault people for using the "just doing our jobs" excuse. That's a personal choice they made. Nobody forced them to make that decision.
 
Folks as I understand it from the blogs, the NO weapons are being returned now - as fast as bureaucracy and lying city officials permit it to happen.
Click to expand...

The City of New Orleans denied for months that it does have a stockpile of firearms seized from private citizens in the days following Hurricane Katrina.

Agreement reached to return said firearms was reached March 16, 2006.

As of June, on the order of 15% have of the firearms been returned (IIRC).

This does not count those firearms that were outright destroyed (sometimes right in front of their owners).
 
LOL they were threatened, "because our weapons were bigger then there weapons" from one of the non leos. Got to love that.



ps i also would of hiden most of my pistols/rifles, if i had more then one, let them take one or two away, and acted like it was a big deal, then when they were gone i would of got some more out of hiding
 
Horse crap.

I had many friends who were in New Orleans during Katrina. Most of the National Guard didn't confiscate any weapons. Most of the NG wouldn't confiscate any weapons. Asking members of the Utah NG was considered stupid and suicidal. It was members of the NG and non-NO law enforcement that blew the whistle on this. It was law enforcement officers that were in NO, who disobeyed the order to collect guns, that were keeping us up to date online.

Most of my friends were way to busy pulling bloated corpses of children out of sunken houses to worry about petty BS orders from corrupt politicians. They saw people with guns, and they smiled and waved.

Go back and read the threads that occured during this. Read my posts during that time. I was in contact with people there and did my best to keep everyone up to date about the confiscations. It was LE and NG that let us know what was going on. It was NG that called home and told their friends and loved ones to call their respective governors and raise hell about the confiscations.

Sure, we're on a slippery slope all right. Slippery from all the tears and whining of people on the internet who like to get all self righteous over cops and the guard. As if the NG has to prove squat to you.

The confiscations lasted for a period of less than 24 hours, in the most corrupt city in America, with the most corrupt police force in America, in a place where most of the people like us had the brains to get the hell out, in a place swarming with more cops and military than anywhere else in the country, during a disaster, with almost total military control over the media, with the media being in favor of allowing anything to happen, and they were still a total flop. With almost universal, massive back lash, and accomplished nothing more than to really fire up the gun culture.

Yeah, I'm real worried.

We lost? HOW? You've got every red state in the country tripping over itself to pass laws forbidding the confiscation of weapons during a disaster. You've got the gun culture fired up. You've got lawsuits. And you had NG disobeying orders and telling city officals to screw off.

And anybody with half a brain can look at what happened in a cesspool like NO, and what a flop confiscation was, and you expect me to think that it would work better in a place that isn't a corrupt welfare leach city? NO was the perfect test case, there really weren't any things that could have been better conditions, and it still sucked.

What the hell is with people on the internet who feel the need to be picked on and defeated? Give me a break.

And before anybody starts accusing me of being an apologist. I'm an SOT. The government crap you like to complain about anonymously on line is crap that I have to deal with on a daily basis. You think you are on the To Do List? Brother, I'm pretty sure I'm a few spots up from you. So CHILL OUT with the self righteous indignation.

If you think Jeff White, Coronach, Johnny and Matt Guest, Lawdog, and the men like them are going to boot down your door and take your guns because there was a tornado, then you are delusional. If you live in a place like NO, where your cops are that stupid and corrupt, then you need to move the hell away.
 
Was there...

I was in NO and surrounding area from Sept 2 till Nov 1 with large telecom company, restoring cell tower services first then as a logisitics manager for temporary facilities.

I saw plenty of people with weapons, NG, LEO and Civies all day and all night. Black folk, white folk and purple folk. I saw not one nor heard of a single actual confiscation... there were plenty of rumors about this cousin of a friend or another guy having his full autos taken away by NO LEO or La NG.

Never saw it and if it happened it was limited.
 
I got PMs today from two THR members who had their guns taken (later returned) during NOLA05.

The THR staff cops are here because I respect them. They proved themselves many times over.
 
I was in New Orleans as well. My small civilian group of volunteers was visably armed. We were left alone.

Still, a thousand firearms in storage is difficult to deny, as Nagin, Riley and Compass tried to do. It was only a move by the NRA/SAF towards a contempt of court ruling that finally forced these men to admit to having the guns. When faced with incarceration prior to election, Nagin came clean.

On April 18, 2006, Lawdog wrote his thoughts about the confiscations. On December 31, 2006, I wrote mine. I blogged NOLA's admission on March 16, 2006. My first post on the confiscations was on September 20, 2005. I have been blogging updates since September 2005. Indeed, these events were the seminal force behind my blog.

The events that occured in New Orleans happened. A thousand firearms being secretly held is not an isolated occurance. Some names to remember in the coming year are Buell Teel, Patricia Konie, Fredrick Thomas, Wayne Schum, Richard Styron, and Robert Zas. All were law abiding citizens who had their firearms taken by force, when they needed them most.

These confiscations are undeniable. They happened. A thousand firearms came from somewhere. Plaintiffs are waiting for justice still. Many law officers and NG did not carry out the orders to confiscate, but some did. It is depressing to see that some still deny the truth, and others never knew what happened.

We must prevent similar occurances in the future. NOPD Chief Warren Riley has already declared he will do the same thing this hurricane season, despite HB 760 becoming law in Louisiana.

This is important. The time for righteous indignation is past. If you are indignant now, you are a few months behind. Now is the time to firmly and resolutely bring about change to prevent future confiscations. Find out what is happening in your own state, and find out which organizations truely contribute to your right to keep and bear arms. Then support them with your money and time. Rights are not retained by apathy, denial and being blissfully unaware. Look at the evidence. Draw your own conclusions. Get involved.
 
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