About the Terror Gap

[rainbowbob]

The following is an excerpt from the "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" website, in which they breathlessly inform us that "...terror suspects who are barred from flying on planes can legally purchase firearms and explosives..."

The examples they provide to illustrate the "Terror Gap" includes people with scary sounding Middle Eastern names, but as far as I can discern from the text - not one of them was on a "No Fly" list - a subset of the Terrorist Screening Database.

Wouldn't you would think that if a person merits having their firearms rights suspended because of suspected terrorist activity, they should also be prevented from flying on commercial aircraft?

It doesn't appear to me that any of their examples include persons who would have been prevented from obtaining firearms under the proposed restrictions. Those that are noted to have purchased firearms from licensed dealers are not noted as having been on any list of known terrorists.

Couldn't they have at least found ONE example of how their proposed legislation would have prevented at least ONE incident?

They even include Nidal Hasan - who was a major in the U.S. Army at the time. Perhaps we should first focus on preventing terrorists from joining the U.S. "armed" services.

About the Terror Gap

Under current federal law, terror suspects who are barred from flying on planes can legally purchase firearms and explosives. According to the Government Accountability Office, in the past six years, people on the terrorist watch list succeeded in purchasing guns and explosives from licensed dealers 1,119 times. Mayors Against Illegal Guns first highlighted the Terror Gap in September 2007 and has supported legislation introduced by Senator Frank Lautenberg (D-NJ) and Representative Peter King (R-NY) to close the gap. The following examples of acts committed by terrorists with guns show the importance of closing the Terror Gap:

Fort Hood shooting. On November 5, 2009, 13 people were shot and killed and 30 others were wounded by Major Nidal Hasan, a man who had been under investigation by the FBI and was suspected of having ties to terrorists. Hasan purchased his gun after the FBI had investigated his suspicious activities, but the FBI agents who ran the gun background check never communicated with the FBI agents who had investigated Hasan.

Quantico plot: On July 27, 2009, the FBI arrested seven terror suspects for conspiring to murder U.S. military personnel at the Marine Corps base in Quantico, Virginia. Over several years, they had amassed an arsenal of assault rifles and more than 26,000 rounds of ammunition. The ringleader, Daniel Patrick Boyd, was under investigation by the FBI Joint Terrorism Task Force, and in recent years, Boyd had traveled to the Middle East to meet with militants.

Little Rock shooting. On June 1, 2009, Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad opened fire at a military recruiting station in Little Rock, killing one private and wounding another. At the time of the shooting, the FBI was investigating Muhammad after his arrest in Yemen with a fake Somali passport. He was charged with murder and 16 counts of terrorist acts.

Fort Dix plot. In 2007, six terror suspects were arrested for plotting to attack Fort Dix after trying to buy M-16s, AK-47s, and handguns from an FBI informant. One suspect pled guilty to providing firearms to illegal aliens. The other five were convicted of conspiracy to kill U.S. military personnel.

Empire State Building murders. On February 23, 1997, Ali Abu Kamal opened fire on the observation deck of the Empire State Building with a handgun purchased from a licensed dealer in Florida, killing one tourist and wounding six before killing himself. A note in his pocket expressed hatred for the United States, Great Britain, Israel, and France.

Halberstam murder. On March 1, 1994, Rashid Baz shot and killed 16-year old Ari Halberstam on the Brooklyn Bridge. Baz had a machine gun, a 9 mm pistol, and a “street sweeper” shotgun.

CIA Headquarters attack. On January 25, 1993, Mir Aimal Kasi stopped at a red light near CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia. Shooting with an assault rifle he bought that month from a Chantilly, VA gun dealer, Kasi killed two CIA employees and wounded three others.

 

[Tommygunn]

Wasn't Ted Kennedy on the "NO FLY" list? I have no problem keeping guns out of his hands -- he wacked enough people with just his car.

Of course his passing has mooted that point; but a lot of people are on that list for bizarre unknown reasons, and even if only real terrorists could be denied guns, then how would it help?
The 9/11 terrorists killed 2,973 human beings and not one had a gun.

 

[IlikeSA]

Just because you are being watched or suspected doesn't make you a terrorist. Should 2A and 4A rights be stripped on suspicion, or the fact that a person had associated with people who in the past could have been terrorists? Who defines "terrorists" these days anyway?

I'm not in favor of LE making preemptive arrests, unless there is enough evidence to know for sure that someone is going to commit a crime. If one has made the threat, has the ability, but not the opportunity, should we call them a murderer and arrest them, stripping them of freedom? If one has the opportunity and the ability, but hasn't made a threat, should we do the same? If one has made the threat and has the opportunity, but not the means, should we do the same? Yes, LE could in two of those situations, given that there are "terroristic threat" laws out there. However, in this age of paranoia, we have swung so far that individual freedoms are being violated for the "good" of the whole. The government has listed as terrorists people who have the ability and opportunity, without evidence to the third leg, actual threats.

If you haven't noticed, these three make up the same triangle that you must have in order to use lethal force against an aggressor. Missing one will end with you in jail. Our governments job is to protect us from enemies while protecting individual freedoms. The government should be accountable to the same three in order to use lethal force or take freedoms away from an individual. It should violate our conscious to sacrifice the freedoms of many for the potential "good" of the whole. I fear those who would disarm the sheepdogs because of the threat of wolves, leaving everyone threatened by wolves.

 

[benEzra]

It is ironic to see that a some of the people who were (rightly) critical of the Bush administration's secret blacklists two or three years ago are now suddenly pro-blacklist now that 2ndA issues are involved. I guess "terrah" by itself wasn't sufficiently scary as a justifier, but invoking "terrah + gunz" suddenly makes the process OK.

This was originally a Bush administration proposal, floated by Alberto "No Such Thing as Habeus Corpus" Gonzales while he was Attorney General. If you should happen encounter someone left of center who spouts off about the "Terror Gap", remind them of that.

 

[C-grunt]

The only person who they said was "on the list" that legally bought a gun, according to their article, was Hasan. Who wa in the military for christs sake.

Then the Raz guy. He murdered one guy on a bridge in New York in the mid 90's. How is he a terrorist? Sounds like they were just using his middle eastern name. Thats racist.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

Putting anyone on a "terrorist watch," "no-fly" or other "list" sounds good until you dig a little deeper and find that it is denial of due process, period. A real terrorist is going to find and obtain all the arms he wants, no matter the law.

 

[EddieNFL]

You're trying to apply logic to a government process.

 

[mgkdrgn]

I am curious ... as the "watch list" is a closely guarded secret, I do wonder how they came up with their figures.

Also, the "John Smith" that bought a gun isn't necessary the "John Smith" that is on the "watch list". There are AIRLINE PILOTS that are on the "watch list".
The entire argument is bogus from the start.

 

[rainbowbob]

A real terrorist is going to find and obtain all the arms he wants, no matter the law..

That can't be right. Just look how effective the laws restricting felons from possessing firearms are.

The entire argument is bogus from the start.

Wait a minute...are you saying these noble public servants are trying to put one over on us?

 

[Mr.Davis]

MAIG and other similar groups thrive on fear. They know the facts don't support their perspective, so they fan the flames of racism, classism, and elitism to create a fear of "the other guy" who might have a gun. This appeals to citizens who don't have a problem with people owning guns, as long as they're the right kind of people.

As has been pointed out, several of the names in the MAIG release wouldn't have been on the watch list even if it had existed when they committed their crimes. Not to mention, the release steers clear of all the examples of law abiding citizens who have been placed on the watch list without any due process whatsoever, having never been charged with a crime.

I wonder how long it would take dissidents like Dick Anthony Heller and Otis McDonald to find their names on the watch list, were the MAIG proposal implemented.

 

[rainbowbob]

I suppose they can assume that the audience they're counting on for support will not think critically about the issues.

Dish up some fear...demonstrate how passionately they are fighting for a solution...sit back and collect the donations.

 

[Deanimator]

1. If being on a "watch list" should prevent you from exercising your 2nd Amendment rights, why shouldn't it prevent you, without benefit of due process, from exercising any OTHER right, including:

• speech
• religion
• freedom from improper searches, seizures, bills of attainder and torture
• travel
• privacy
• ownership of property
• marriage
• voting

2. As was pointed out, it took TED KENNEDY two weeks to get off of the list. How long would it take any mere mortal? Would they ever get off of it AT ALL?

Anti-gunners are contemptuous of ALL rights, not just the right to own a firearm. Scratch an anti-gunner, find a fascist.

 

[Mr.Davis]

Anti-gunners are contemptuous of ALL rights, not just the right to own a firearm. Scratch an anti-gunner, find a fascist.

Nah, Antis love rights...they just want only preferred groups to be allowed to exercise them. Same as it ever was.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

Oh it gets better, this presidency wants to okay assinating U.S. citizens without Due Process. I have to wonder who's on that decison committee. Stalin would have loved our country's way of doing things had he lived today.