Accidental Discharge .44 Magnum

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Yeah, it's fun to judge and ridicule, but I don't get how an instructor could break a number of rules of safety. It's just not something a qualified person would do. You're fired!
 
460Shooter said:
Ok so here's one for you guys and I'm interested in what you think.

I have a Wilson/Beretta 92 Brig Tac with a Wilson tuned trigger. It's supper smooth and light. Fantastic is the word. Twice now, while I was shooting that gun fast I have taken a shot and before I had my sight picture clear and well aimed, I was surprised by the trigger. I had controlled the trigger through both first shots, and as I was realigning my sights for my next shots, I released the trigger to the point of reset, but accidentally put just enough pressure on the trigger that I fired again before my shot was perfectly aligned.

It essentially looked like an extremely poorly executed double tap in both circumstances, however, I did not intend to fire the second shot at that point at all. So while the gun was pointed at the target, and in a safe direction, I "accidentally" fired again. I would consider that to be an accidental discharge. I did not violate any safety rules, as I was ready to shoot, but it was just that I did not have a clear sight picture yet.

Is there anyone who would want to argue that I was negligent when I discharged the second shot, as it was unintentional and I was not properly aimed? I'm asking, not saying anyone who feels I was negligent is wrong.

I have learned from it. Slow down, and know the trigger on your gun well before you start trying to shoot a gun fast. I also question if I should carry that gun at all. The trigger is lighter and smoother than any of my other guns. I have been working on speed for the past year and a half, so I try to run the trigger to reset, but I got a little out of line with this one.
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I've had a problem with the very same thing lately, on 1911s. I had to give up resetting the trigger during recoil. I considered it negligent when I did it, since the unaimed fire was my fault due to my mishandling of the trigger.
 
AZAndy said:
I've had a problem with the very same thing lately, on 1911s. I had to give up resetting the trigger during recoil. I considered it negligent when I did it, since the unaimed fire was my fault due to my mishandling of the trigger.
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In this case, I don't think "negligent" applies. The firearm is under control. The muzzle is down range. There is no risk to others. While not exerting trigger control compatible with best results, one is not acting without prudence. So, in my view, this would best be described as "poor technique", or something to that effect, rather than negligent discharge. Unless you are bouncing them off the ceiling...
 
Have you ever handled a Benelli B-76 series pistol? It is not the gun used here, but this incident makes me think of it. It is one of the few double action automatic pistols I have ever seen without some built-in, mechanically safe method of lowering the hammer to the uncocked position. Almost every other one, starting with the Walther PP back in 1929, has this feature. I remarked on this to a friend, and said I thought it reflected Benelli's lack of experience with pistol design. He asked why, and I said that setting the gun on DA by pulling the trigger and lowering the hammer on a live round with your thumb was the kind of thing that, if enough people did it enough times, was BOUND to result in accidental / negligent discharges. He was unconvinced, citing his own experience in uncocking SA pistols and revolvers.

I cite this poor instructor as support for my position. Sooner or later, unless people really focus on the equipment they are handling, they are going to mishandle it, and if it's a gun, bullets are going to fly. At least this guy probably had much better focus for a long time afterward, even if he was no longer employed as an instructor.

(And yes, I know that machinery is no substitute for safe gun handling. And I know that machinery can fail as well. But it does change the odds.)
 
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Any unintentional discharge is an accidental discharge. The accident CAN be because of negligent behavior, or not. I understand the desire to hold shooters accountable, but believe we are over using the "negligent discharge" phrase. This incident would never be considered negligent from a legal perspective.
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As someone who had to testify as a training expert, you are correct. The core question is did he/she intend the weapon to fire? If the answer is no, then it is accidental. That does not mean the person wasn't careless or the discharge wasn't preventable--but it was an accident. Now if the shooter intentionally fired the weapon missed the intended target and struck a third party and/or damaged property; the shooter is negligent and liable. That is a negligent discharge.
 
Saleen322 said:
As someone who had to testify as a training expert, you are correct. The core question is did he/she intend the weapon to fire? If the answer is no, then it is accidental. That does not mean the person wasn't careless or the discharge wasn't preventable--but it was an accident. Now if the shooter intentionally fired the weapon missed the intended target and struck a third party and/or damaged property; the shooter is negligent and liable. That is a negligent discharge.
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Negligence does not require harm.
 
That was no accident. It was a busload of stupid. That guy should not be teaching a gun safety course, he should be taking one. But first he has to lose the swagger.
 
Years back when I was a RO at a local indoor range, I had a LEO /lady put 3 through the ceiling while cocking her revolver ...asked her to leave.
 
Master Blaster said:
He violated two out of three of the safety rules, he was negligent.
1. keep the gun pointed in a safe direction. The ceiling is not a safe direction.
2. keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot. Violated that one too.
3. Keep the gun unloaded until you are ready to use it. OK, he was ready, maybe, but the gun fired before he was ready.....
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Your # 3 isn't in any version of the Four Rules I've learned and taught over the years......
 
RPRNY said:
In this case, I don't think "negligent" applies.
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So it is not negligent, in your opinion, to fire a shot into the ceiling or baffle of your employing range and hit yourself in the face with your revolver, as a result of putting your finger on the trigger of a loaded and cocked revolver, while your eyes are focused beside and behind yourself, and NOT focused on what your bullet might strike?

This is years old, not new, and the guy holds no range safety nor instructor credential outside of that provided by his employing range. This was not a class, but was a brief operational debrief for new shooters renting the handgun(s). This made the rounds a couple months ago on instructor forums, just the same as it did years ago.

The dude was negligent. This negligent discharge would not have happened if his finger would not have been on the trigger AND if he would not have cocked the revolver to fire single action then taken his focus away without letting down the hammer. Twice negligent, in my opinion as an instructor.
 
Varminterror said:
So it is not negligent, in your opinion, to fire a shot into the ceiling or baffle of your employing range and hit yourself in the face with your revolver, as a result of putting your finger on the trigger of a loaded and cocked revolver, while your eyes are focused beside and behind yourself, and NOT focused on what your bullet might strike?

This is years old, not new, and the guy holds no range safety nor instructor credential outside of that provided by his employing range. This was not a class, but was a brief operational debrief for new shooters renting the handgun(s). This made the rounds a couple months ago on instructor forums, just the same as it did years ago.

The dude was negligent. This negligent discharge would not have happened if his finger would not have been on the trigger AND if he would not have cocked the revolver to fire single action then taken his focus away without letting down the hammer. Twice negligent, in my opinion as an instructor.
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You need to read more. My response that you quoted was in reference to another poster's query on trigger control. I am clearly on the record about the chap in the OP video.

Your post is aggressively rude and wrong. There's an easy way to fix that.
 
I think we've all seen "that guy" somewhere or other.
 
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Coyote3855 said:
The listed rules including #3 are taught in every NRA Basic Pistol class I've been involved with as student or instructor.
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When talking about "the rules" most shooters are referring to Col. Cooper's 4 Rules.

So according to you and the NRA I'm being unsafe keeping my home defense gun loaded? What about my carry gun? Am I really supposed to keep that unloaded until I'm threatened or attacked?

I have respect for the NRA but I do not agree with that "rule". There is nothing wrong with a loaded gun as long as you keep your finger off the darn trigger until your sights are on the target!!! Breaking this rule is probably responsible for 75%+ of the gun accidents each year. This is the same rule broken in the video.
 
ArchAngelCD said:
When talking about "the rules" most shooters are referring to Col. Cooper's 4 Rules.

So according to you and the NRA I'm being unsafe keeping my home defense gun loaded? What about my carry gun? Am I really supposed to keep that unloaded until I'm threatened or attacked?

I have respect for the NRA but I do not agree with that "rule". There is nothing wrong with a loaded gun as long as you keep your finger off the darn trigger until your sights are on the target!!! Breaking this rule is probably responsible for 75%+ of the gun accidents each year. This is the same rule broken in the video.
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In regard to the NRA's seemingly paradoxical rule for safe gun handling in the context of firearms left loaded for defensive use - while I cannot speak as an official representative of the NRA, I CAN speak to the training we receive as instructors developed by the NRA Training Division.

The 3rd rule, while it is easy to inconsiderately disparage with a complete non-sequitur as you have, does NOT preclude long-term loaded firearms for defensive purpose. For defensive purpose, the firearm is at a "ready for use" state, as such, it should be loaded. Your carry pistol needs to be "ready for use" as soon as it is mounted in the morning and remain ready for use, as such, it should be loaded. Your argument is the most common I have heard against the NRA 3 Rules over the years, and it's no more of a valid argument today than it was almost 20yrs ago the first time I heard it.

The 3rd rule does, however, preclude the laziness of the common, "I have a shotgun by the bed, loaded 24/7." As in this situation, when the owner leaves the home, if anyone else were to enter, say your teenage kid with a few friends, they wouldn't find a loaded, unsecured, and unsupervised firearm. If the teenager is representative and approved (and hopefully trained) to use the shotgun in defense, then the "ready condition" transitions to the teen as a responsible party controlling that weapon while you're gone (and by control, at minimum requiring it is not interfered with and remains at ready state without potential for violation of the other two rules). If you keep a nightstand gun which stays in the room, meaning it does not need be "ready for use," then it should either get secured during the day.

There's discussion to be had about concealed carry pieces removed and left in vehicles. One could argue the user may need it to be "ready for use" immediately upon return, as in the event of a surprise attack when re-entering the vehicle, or an active shooter event where a person might retreat from a threat to retrieve the firearm to engage to prevent further loss of life. In the interim, as the owner is not present, the firearm isn't necessarily in control and therefor the firearm isn't necessarily ready for use - grey area here. But again, the 3rd rule doesn't preclude having a loaded firearm waiting in your vehicle.

Same argument is often made for hunting, guys will rebuff, "what, am I supposed to walk with an empty shotgun then ask the birds to wait while I load up?" No, when hunting, the firearm needs to be "ready for use" at almost any time of the walk, and therefore should be loaded.

As a formerly certified risk assessor, there are multiple control paradigms which can mitigate firearms risks. Cooper's 4 Rules and the NRA's 3 Rules both satisfy as safe as general guidelines - but neither are sufficiently comprehensive to represent anything more than a backbone. 3 or 4 Rules do not a safety program make...

nr40830es39977.jpg
 
Sav .250 said:
No matter the level of experience............ accidents do happen.
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Which is a fair statement, and I wholeheartedly agree - but there is not necessarily a mutual exclusion between negligent and and accidental. Accidental effectively implies the lack of intent - I was actually taught the term "UA" for Unintentional Discharge in my first handgun class over 20yrs ago. So an accidental discharge is any of which are not intentional - but the cause of the accident makes all of the difference in the world.

Even in a negligent discharge, common sense for exceptions do happen - if a guy is a world class IDPA shooter (proven safe firearms record), he still might leave his finger accidentally on the trigger as he reholsters after a defensive shooting. That's a singular breach of safe firearms handling, and if that's the only step between zero and bang for your pistol, that accident can happen. But I'm less forgiving if a person breaches TWO protocols - for example, if the IDPA champ in my example is carrying a 1911, and fails to activate the manual safety AND leaves his finger in the trigger guard while reholstering, that's a gross failure, as two protocols were breached. In the professional industrial/commercial risk mitigation world, we deal with unrelated single point failures, and multiple failures are effectively always considered negligent.

This guy was doubly negligent, if not honestly so in triple.

1) Finger was on trigger when he was not intending to fire. If his finger were not left on the trigger as he turned to acknowledge distraction, he would not have caused the discharge, even if he would have accidentally committed his other negligent act of failing to decock when bringing the revolver off of the safe, designated backstop.

2) Hammer was left back and muzzle brought up and off of the safe, designated back-stop as he turned to acknowledge a distraction. If he had decocked it as he should have, his other negligent action may not have elicited the discharge.

3) This is more a testament to the foolishness and arrogance of the shooter, but if he had acknowledged his ND and used it as a teaching moment, he likely would not have "enjoyed" the viral popularity he so far has. I am actually impressed by the quick thinking of the renter/student who asked, "did you mean to do that?" - most folks would not have had the presence of mind to even ask; as the shooter himself didn't even have the presence of mind gathered back up to acknowledge his accident.

Accidents do happen. Accidents born from negligence happen far more often.
 
entropy said:
Your # 3 isn't in any version of the Four Rules I've learned and taught over the years......
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Its what the NRA requires we teach as Basic Pistol instructors. The three rules are simple and easy to remember for students. Following them will prevent a negligent discharge and serious injury. They are the rules I also teach to Boy Scouts for the shotgun or rifle merit badge. You can also add rule 4 which is know your target and what is beyond. Of course there are other safety rules as well.

https://www.nrafamily.org/articles/2015/10/6/8-gun-safety-rules-you-may-not-have-heard-of/
 
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