Accidental Discharge (Graphic Pics)

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why was his hand in front of the muzzle anyway?

you friend failed at all 3 rules...

muzzle in safe direction

finger off trigger until ready to fire

and the gun is treated like its loaded at all times


best part of those rules are that if he only broke 1 of those rules everyone is still safe....



and rp88 im not arguing about caliber with you but it doesn't appear for the hollow point to have opened...

seus did you see the bullet after it was pulled out of the cabinet?
 
It appears to have penetrated through less than an inch of soft tissue on the edge of his hand... a feat that could easily be accomplished by a .22. I wouldn't say you can draw any "caliber conclusions" :rolleyes: based on that hit, nor any hollowpoint performance conclusions, since that is well under the amount of penetration a bullet would need to have through soft tissue prior to expanding.

The whole "AD vs ND" semantics game to me is exactly that, and goofy as well... everyone knows what happened here. An accident is something that you did not intend to happen. Unless the guy intended to shoot himself in the hand, doing so was an accident. It appears that the cause of this accident was negligence, as is the case in a very large subset of unintended (aka, accidental) firearm discharges. Yes, absolutely we can hang "negligence" around this guy's neck, and should, so hopefully he will either learn to not handle firearms, or at least learn to clear them prior to cleaning/futzing/whatever.
 
The whole "AD vs ND" semantics game to me is exactly that, and goofy as well...
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Nope, there is a difference. AD indicates a mechanical malfunction in the firearm leading to an unintended discharge. AD's are rare, but they do occur. ND's are caused by people doing something stupid and is not related to the mechanical integrity of the firearm. The vast, vast, vast majority of firearms accidents are ND's, so there is really no need to even use the term "AD".

By making this distinction, it keeps the blame squarely where it usually belongs: on the shooter. The gun didn't accidentally shoot the person, the person accidentally shot the person.
 
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People who get in the habit of dropping the hammer, in my opinion, are just waiting for an AD to happen. Dropping the hammer means you have to pull the trigger. I don't pull the trigger on any gun unless I want it to go bang. The ONLY exception is if I am doing dry fire practice, and before that I REMOVE the magazine, check three times it is clear, and still point in a safe direction.
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^^^^^^^^
what he said.

you have to run a USPSA or IDPA shoot that way due the nature of the event.

a better rule would be that visitors firearms must stay holstered unless cleared by you.

and the rule is: never cover anything with the muzzle that you do not intend to shoot.
 
The hollow-point barely expanded on one side.
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Considering that the bullet didn't travel very far and was facing relatively soft tissue, I think the expansion was pretty good. Had your friend found a more vital area where bone and denser tissue were present, the expansion would have been more extensive. Thankfully, he hit only his hand...
 
Nope, there is a difference. AD indicates a mechanical malfunction in the firearm leading to an unintended discharge. AD's are rare, but they do occur. ND's are caused by people doing something stupid and is not related to the mechanical integrity of the firearm. The vast, vast, vast majority of firearms accidents are ND's, so there is really no need to even use the term "AD".
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The definition of accident:

–noun 1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.

Did this guy shooting himself in the hand occur unintentionally? I'm assuming so, unless he woke up that day craving a trip to the ER. Did it result in harm, injury, damage, or loss? Yes. Was it a mishap? Yes.

The definition of "accident" is not directly contingent upon cause. Negligence was the cause; it does not have a bearing on the definition of an accident. An accidental discharge caused by mechanical failure which the shooter could not be reasonably expected to control, or negligence: Both are accidents, with different causes.
 
Almost afraid to ask, but...what is the 2nd pic a picture of?
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The side of his hand where the bullet exited. It looks like the trajectory was slanted across the palm. If you look closely in the first photo, you can see the darkened area on the side of his hand where the exit was.
 
Hey 9mm+,

My response to your AD v. ND has already been posted as reply#49.
 
The definition of accident:

–noun 1. an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.

Did this guy shooting himself in the hand occur unintentionally? I'm assuming so, unless he woke up that day craving a trip to the ER. Did it result in harm, injury, damage, or loss? Yes. Was it a mishap? Yes.

The definition of "accident" is not directly contingent upon cause. Negligence was the cause; it does not have a bearing on the definition of an accident. An accidental discharge caused by mechanical failure which the shooter could not be reasonably expected to control, or negligence: Both are accidents, with different causes.
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I am not arguing the definition of the word "accident"; yes, AD or ND are both accidents. I am arguing that definition of AD/ND in this vernacular. A common observer would say that this was a "gun accident", but those who are looking deeper would want to know if it were AD (mechanical malfunction induced) or ND (caused by negligence). I know that the term "AD" has the word "accident" in it, but the meaning here (again, in this vernacular only) is that it was a mechanical malfunction of the firearm. If I had my druthers, the "AD" would be "MD" for "malfunction discharge", but this term has been used for a long time already and is already established.
 
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I agree there are more reasons to pull the trigger than just dry fire practice. I guess my point was that pulling the trigger to make a gun "safe" is a bad idea. I don't like the idea of pulling the trigger for any reason other than to make the gun "fire" whether that is for practice dry or for real.
 
Thanks, Donato, I just read your post. To be honest, I think it does make a difference what you call it.

I deal with a lot of non-shooters everyday who think that guns are time bombs that "just go off". This type of ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to a further erosion of Second Amendment rights. Guns "just don't go off" unless there was possibly an AD, which thankfully is very rare. This is why I make this distinction. Once people realize that gun accidents are caused by negligence >99% of the time, then perhaps others will start to treat firearms with respect and will get the training they need to handle them safely.
 
9mm+ said:
I deal with a lot of non-shooters everyday who think that guns are time bombs that "just go off". This type of ignorance leads to fear and fear leads to a further erosion of Second Amendment rights.
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Yes, and movies and TV spread this misconception rampantly. Every time a gun is dropped in the movies, it ends up turning into a full auto firing away until the "clip" is empty. :mad:
 
The OP may want to reconsider

what he allows to go on in and around his home.

I am guessing this happened in someone's kitchen, someone other than the poor guy with the bandaged hand.

Someone's insurance is going to pay and there may be a police investigation into the entire episode.

I think the OP should reconsider allowing friends over to shoot in his back yard. Your homeowner's insurance (hopefully you have that) should cover this, however, they may not cover a second accident, or they may drop your insurance.

Just something to consider.
Certainly don't lose sleep over it. :)
 
gun accidents are caused by negligence >99% of the time
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Then we could refer to them as "accidents" and just recognize that a lot of them are caused by human failure.

Maybe we could call them DCBIAOPST - discharge caused by improper application of proper safety techniques.

Side thought that has no bearing here (maybe): The responsibility involved in driving a car is just as important as those operating a gun - we probably kill as many or more people in car accidents as with guns. Most car accidents are caused by negligence on one or both involvees. Why do we always think of these as accidents? Why don't we start pinning the name NA (negligent accident) on them? Come to think of it, I wonder why there isn't a big anti-car movement afoot in the world?

Maybe what I'm thinking is: We get so serious about defining what we call an accident with a gun (and we should be very serious about gun safety itself), yet driving safety is equally serious, but we don't get all bent out of shape over what we call an auto accident - we just call it "accident".

I don't like hanging a "Negligent/stupid" sign on someone who has endured great pain/embarrassment/maybe death because of a gun accident that I don't think they intentionally set out to do.
 
donato said:
Then we could refer to them as "accidents" and just recognize that a lot of them are caused by human failure.

Maybe we could call them DCBIAOPST - discharge caused by improper application of proper safety techniques.

Side thought that has no bearing here (maybe): The responsibility involved in driving a car is just as important as those operating a gun - we probably kill as many or more people in car accidents as with guns. Most car accidents are caused by negligence on one or both involvees. Why do we always think of these as accidents? Why don't we start pinning the name NA (negligent accident) on them? Come to think of it, I wonder why there isn't a big anti-car movement afoot in the world?

Maybe what I'm thinking is: We get so serious about defining what we call an accident with a gun (and we should be very serious about gun safety itself), yet driving safety is equally serious, but we don't get all bent out of shape over what we call an auto accident - we just call it "accident".

I don't like hanging a "Negligent/stupid" sign on someone who has endured great pain/embarrassment/maybe death because of a gun accident that I don't think they intentionally set out to do.
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Words of wisdom here, I completely AGREE!
 
Oh heck. There I went and did it myself - took away from the OP. AD/ND needs to be in another thread not here.

So very sad for the OPs friend. Hope he recovers nicely. Thanks OP for sharing a life experience/lesson.
 
I don't like the "AD" distinction (my beef is with the "accident" part, but the nomenclature has already been in place); however, I do like separating negligence from the very rare mechanical failure.

People actually do make distinctions in car accidents, especially when death or serious injury occur. People are very quick to point out acts of negligence ("He/she was killed by drunk driver", "He/she was hit by a speeding car/truck.", etc.)

I'm sure that Seuss' friend feels badly enough and doesn't need us to point that out for him. I fully agree there...
 
Most car accidents are caused by negligence on one or both involvees. Why do we always think of these as accidents? Why don't we start pinning the name NA (negligent accident) on them?
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Perhaps someone could correct me with the lastest trend, but just as I was getting out of the LEO world there was an increasing trend of departments requiring that the term "accident" be replaced with "crash" for all accidents/crashes involving automobiles. Undoubtedly, this was due to possible litigation about whether an incident was accidental or negligence.
 
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