Accuracy: Strong hold vs weak hold.

[JRWhit]

Recently while shooting I had a change in typical outcomes of accuracy.
Two pistols were in use. A SR1911 45acp and a Sig 226 9mm.
My groups are typically a little tighter with the Sig. The difference being 8" circle vs a 5" circle at 15 yds. That's shooting what I would call casual shooting where I am not zeroing every shot for a fine tune hold yet not just spraying ammo. Note that when I say 8" and 5" I'm talking general and not perfection.
Recently I have had a tetanus shot that resulted in temporary weakness in joints including hands and wrists. Range time with this weakness completely flipped the figures on accuracy. I was nearly frustrated with my patterns using the 226. Then, when I picked up the 1911, I was a little confused to see my best grouping pop up.
The weaker hold that temporarily hurt my accuracy with the 226 also benefited my accuracy with the 1911. With the two drastically different grips of these two guns it seamed to be a little telling and has me re-evaluating the way I grip when shooting. I typically use a two hand thumbs forward grip, in sort of a crossed Weaver stance with strong side slightly forward.

To those who shoot well with the 226, what is your typical grip?

To those who shoot better with the 1911, what is yours?

 

[GLOOB]

Yup.

With a 1911 I sometimes get best groups with an annoyingly light grip.

I use a much firmer grip with most double stacks.

 

[rskent]

Try shooting one handed and let the gun recoil. For me this is when the 1911 really shines.

 

[tuj]

ditto, I shoot one-handed better than I shoot two-handed, but I've been doing bullseye for a while.

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

I'm going to take a WAG, sorry, I'm going to surmise that, in slow fire with your 1911, when you hold the gun lightly and let it recoil, for your next shot you acquire a fresh grip and concentrate more on your sight picture and alignment, thereby improving your groups. In other words, you've improved your accuracy. The inherent or mechanical accuracy of the gun is not affected by how you hold it. The two guns you're comparing have much different grip shapes, calibers, finger reach to the trigger and other factors that affect their recoil and accuracy properties.

 

[BSA1]

I shoot double action revolvers, single action revolvers, double action only semi-automatics and double / single action semi-automatics on an eccentric basis. In other words I often shoot whatever suits my fancy when I go to the range.

I lock both of my thumbs down as I find it gives me a tighter more consistent grip.

When I find my grips are opening up it is usually because I have quit focusing on the front sight. In fact I will go so far as to say to myself "front sight, front sight, front sight” until I get back into using proper sight alignment.

 

[GLOOB]

double

 

[GLOOB]

In other words, you've improved your accuracy. The inherent or mechanical accuracy of the gun is not affected by how you hold it.

Yes, that's the whole point.

When top 1911 shooters describe how to grip a gun, you often hear them say it's like holding an egg. Or shaking someone's hand. Don't squeeze too hard.

Lo and behold, OP and I appear to shoot a 1911 better when holding the gun lightly. Gripping too hard doesn't work for me when trying to make accurate shots. While I'm gradually increasing pressure to the trigger, if I have too much tension in my hands and arms, the sights start to shake. And I never really feel like I have exact control over when the trigger breaks. I just have to wait for it, all the while my arms and wrists feel like wet noodles. When the gun unexpectedly fires, I have to just "go" with the recoil. And when the sight picture doesn't get worse just before the trigger breaks, it's an accomplishment. Despite knowing there's going to be recoil, and despite increasing pressure on the trigger, I have managed to counterintuitively let my grip remain relaxed. It would be interesting to note other persons' findings in this regard.

OTOH, my favorite shooter, which I practically never pull a shot with, is a G21. Some people describe the grip as a 2x4. Yeah, it's pretty big. The distance to the trigger is much greater, too. I use a deathgrip on that gun. When pulling the trigger, it feels natural to squeeze harder, and I do. This is against what most expert shooters recommend. But with this gun, my sights don't move or shake as a result. The harder I grip, and the more tension in my wrist and forearms, the steadier the sights get. I can basically count on the sight picture remaining just as steady or getting even steadier while allowing my grip to tighten up and naturally brace for recoil. If this sounds completely wrong to you, maybe it is. Maybe I'm just lucky to find a gun where I can do this. When I dryfire the gun, the sights almost never move, at all, even after the trigger breaks.

My ultimate group sizes are fairly identical in accuracy shooting. I shoot both very well. I do not feel at any particular disadvantage with a 1911, just shooting for accuracy with nothing at stake. Mag dump into COM at 10 yards, rapidfire, no problem. But when things get around to, "I'll bet you $100 you can't hit that shotgun shell at 50 feet" I'll pick up the Glock. My sights never shake with the Glock. The 1911 takes a little more effort, ironically, and I get tired faster. Partly, the juxtaposition of being super relaxed and then suddenly and unexpectedly facing recoil might be tiresome. But mostly, I think it's the anticipation. Staying relaxed sometimes gets harder as I know the gun is getting closer to going off. It's a mental game. When I'm trying to hit a tiny target and that shot has to count, sometimes I have to back off the trigger, regroup, and start over with a 1911. Once I "lose it" and the sight picture starts to destabilize, it seemingly only gets worse. This happens almost never with the G21. I can stay and live in that moment right before the BANG!, seemingly forever, with very little physical or mental effort. My hands, arms and wrist are tensed, and I feel in complete control. I'm not "scared" of the recoil, because I'm already tensed up to the max, AND I know exactly what time it is with the trigger. If I'm not happy with the sight alignment at that exact moment, I can pause the trigger squeeze as long as it takes, and then resume without a hitch. I don't "lose it" or get tired to begin with.

The trigger plays a role, too. The 1911 trigger doesn't move much. It sort of breaks at a certain weight. That weight is hard to judge when you pull the trigger, slowly. It's easy to lose track of where you are in the pull, like a frog in a slow boil. I know people say a "surprise break" is good. But my arms and wrist are rearing to counter the coming recoil, and when my brain is certain the trigger is going to break right here, and it doesn't, it gets tiring. The trigger on, say, a Glock or an FNX (which is also a great, great shooter for me) has more movement with different feel at different points (talking AFTER the takeup is removed and the trigger is staged).

I feel like I'm driving the G21. It does what I want. The more I tell it what to do, the better it listens. Conversely, the gun also tells me when it's about to fire, loud and clear. With the 1911, I feel like I'm along for the ride.

I know top 1911 shooters will make me look bad, no matter what gun I'm using. They have learned to drive the 1911, and that's what they prefer. To each their own.

OP: I've never shot a P226 particularly well. P220, like a laser. Go figure.

 

[shooter1]

Likely the best shooter I know, Matt Mink, says if you don't have the grip pattern impressed into you hands when you holster the gun, your grip is too loose. He's extremely fast and accurate, so it works for him. I may not grip that tightly, but I do get my best groups when I consciously concentrate on a firm grip.
str1

 

[BCRider]

Matt Mink, says if you don't have the grip pattern impressed into you hands when you holster the gun, your grip is too loose

If Mike was not exaggerating a little to make a point I would suggest that for most of us that is much too tight. Or in his case he has simply practiced this for long enough that it works for him.

I've seen far more folks that had issues from having a "death grip" on the gun and being unable to move their trigger finger in isolation than I have that would be able to shoot well with that tight a grip.

Like with most things in life I've found that the happy middle option works best. In this case evenly firm and tight enough that the gun doesn't shift in my grip with each shot. But not so hard a grip I cannot isolate my trigger finger motion from the rest of my hand pressure.

 

[shooter1]

Might have been a little "Tongue in Cheek". I do know he his capable of a pretty tight grip, the 250# grip exerciser is part of his exercise routine. As I understand it, the support hand handles most of the task of gripping the gun.
str1

 

[GLOOB]

I much prefer a deathgrip. I just can't do it on a 1911.

Going back to the OP, it would seem like it depends on the specific gun and how it fits to the shooter. As BCRider has noted, and many 1911 gurus/teachers agree, for a lot of people the 1911 doesn't respond well to a particularly tight grip. Of course there are always exceptions.