Achievable handgun accuracy

[mikemyers]

I was having a discussion with a relative earlier today. We were talking about the kinds of grouping an experienced shooter could get, holding the gun in their hand (no bench rest) and trying to get the best possible grouping.

My thoughts were that a good shooter with a good gun might be able to create groups one inch in diameter, maybe less. He felt that this is not possible, hand held.

Since then, I've realized there is a lot more that I don't know. I'm guessing that a handgun in a bench rest could put the bullets into a 1/2" diameter grouping (using a high quality revolver or semi-auto), and a good shooter could maybe keep the grouping to under an inch.

Anybody know what kinds of results the better shooters are able to achieve, using a handgun, hand-held? (....and if possible, are there any links to this in various competitions that have been documented on the 'net?)

 

[GMcBoozer]

At what distance?

 

[wlewisiii]

Find a copy of "Sixguns" by Elmer Keith and he'll show you what can be done with a hand gun. Can you say "600 yards"? I knew you could ...

 

[MrBorland]

I'm guessing that a handgun in a bench rest could put the bullets into a 1/2" diameter grouping (using a high quality revolver or semi-auto), and a good shooter could maybe keep the grouping to under an inch.

That would be a world-class target shooter, methinks.

I'd expect a good (but not excellent) shooter to be able to shoot an honest and consistent 3" unsupported 5-shot group with a service-size gun that's capable of 1/2". We're likely talking 25 yards. A good revolver shooter should be able to do this in double action as well. Consistent 2" groups would be excellent, IMO.

 

[osprey176]

Several years back,when my eyes were sharper,I put a full cylinder into a standard 25 yard combat target with an open sighted Super Blackhawk,at 350 yards.I did use my knees for a rest ,but no bench.Modern handguns,like modern rifles are much more accurate than most people can shoot them.The key is lots of practice,with a little competition to sharpen your skills.

 

[[email protected]]

Here is a target I shot in competition several years ago . It was a 25 yd.
10 shot match. Our rules state that it is to be fired one hand un-surpported.
This was with my 45 caliber. My wife is a excellecent 50 yd. shooter. She can hold 10 shots groups around 5 inches shooting one hand un-supported.
There are many out there who can shoot better than we can. All of our
shooting is in competition.

Here is one of the wife's 50 yd. 5 shot pistol targets.

 

[mikemyers]

GMcBoozer, sorry, I thought I had typed 1 inch grouping at 15 yards. I was trying to ask if this was possible, with a handgun, hand held.

I didn't mean one lucky target out of many hundreds, I meant something that the shooter could do "normally" (understanding that occasionally things might be better/worse).


[email protected], is the target you posted (at 25 yards) typical of what you can do, and if so, what size is that grouping (in inches)? It looks plenty impressive to me!

MrBorland, you wrote "That would be a world-class target shooter, methinks". I guess that's what I was asking - what's "the best" we can aim for (pun intended). If it was Bill Wilson standing in front of the target, what size grouping would he be likely to achieve with his 1911?

 

[Loosedhorse]

I thought I had typed 1 inch grouping at 15 yards.

Yes, unrested, two-handed. I've done it. But not often.

It doesn't take a world-class shooter to do it. It takes a world-class shooter to do it every time.

 

[MrBorland]

Ahh...15 yards. 1" is definitely do-able, though I'd hope the gun itself is capable of better than 1/2" at 15 yards. Here are a few from me:

From my .22 revolver:


From my .38 revolver:


Same .38, shot double action:


And from a rented 1911, using range ammo:

 

[Lawdawg45]

"Anybody know what kinds of results the better shooters are able to achieve, using a handgun, hand-held?"

My own experience deals with my son. He is a Police Officer here in Indianapolis and he chose the Ruger LCP as his 2nd back up gun (first is a Glock 27 on his ankle), and as with any carried gun he must qualify with it. I had serious reservations about this tiny gun with no real sights, plus the fact he would have to fire dominant/non-dominant at ranges out to 35 yards, but much to my surprise he qualified first time around. After the course test he decided to try the range of this little gun out to 50 yards, and he hit paper every time. Family ties aside, I was impressed!

LD

 

[MrBorland]

I guess that's what I was asking - what's "the best" we can aim for (pun intended). If it was Bill Wilson standing in front of the target, what size grouping would he be likely to achieve with his 1911?

I wouldn't use practical shooters as target accuracy benchmarks. The good ones can shoot a respectable group if they wanted to, but I'd look more to formal target shooting scores to see what's possible.

In most cases, Masters & High Masters are those who respectively shoot scores of 90 & 95 or better out of 100. IIRC, the NRA B-16 25 yard slow fire target has 3" and 1.5" 9- and 10-rings, respectively. A score of 95 puts an equal number of rounds in the 9-ring and the 10-ring. Do the math, and it requires a 2.1" 25 yard 10-shot group. No easy task. Keep in mind, 2.1" is the upper limit...and that 2.1" group has to be perfectly centered, and it would have to be delivered, perfectly centered, every time. I suspect High Masters actually deliver sub-2" 25 yard groups.

 

[sugarmaker]

I'm a pretty consistant 6 out of 6 on a 9" steel plate at 100 yards, iron sights shooting an 8" DW 44VH with open sights, 220 sierra FPJ.

Shooting an S&W 41 with a dot sight 2 handed I can maintain 10 out of 10 on the same plate if I pay attention to details and shoot in the morning when I'm sharp.

 

[Ankeny]

I frequent Internet shooting forums a lot and this topic comes up frequently. I'll also say I have scored thousands of targets perforated by hundreds of shooters competing in various shooting sports including NRA Action Pistol, PPC, IDPA, USPSA, and so forth. The Internet forum results are generally a whole lot better than the results achieved on the range.

Now, to answer your question directly, a one inch (I'll add five shot) group center to center at 15 yards is achievable by a lot of shooters. Doing it cold and on demand, day in and day out, requires some dedication and practice. Furthermore, shooting cold and on demand in a competition venue with titles on the line requires a whole lot more than mastering mechanics.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks for all the feedback. Based on the above, would it be reasonable to say that with a 15 yard distance to the target, putting 5 to 10 bullets into a one inch grouping (consistently) would take a "master", and doing so into a two inch grouping would still be quite good? Would 5" groupings be typical for an average shooter?


When I go to the range, I'm amazed at how poorly lots of the people I'm watching are shooting. For many of them, it's not a matter of hitting the center of the target, it's a matter of hitting the paper at all.

I've also noticed that over the years, there's no real way to tell if you're improving, staying the same, or getting worse. There's rarely a "score" that you can compare with different locations, different shooting distances, and so on.

I started wondering what a reasonable goal might be for the average person going to the shooting range. Five bullets into one single hole is about like a golf "hole in 1" which is durn near to impossible.

I'm not sure if I really know an answer to what I was trying to ask, but the information up above is a great start.

 

[David E]

Check out your local Bullseye, IDPA or USPSA club. They keep score!

 

[MrBorland]

Check out your local Bullseye, IDPA or USPSA club. They keep score!

This. Or get some official NRA B-4 or B-16 targets, shoot them at the appropriate distance (20 & 25 yards, respectively) and keep track of your scores.

Based on the above, would it be reasonable to say that with a 15 yard distance to the target, putting 5 to 10 bullets into a one inch grouping (consistently) would take a "master", and doing so into a two inch grouping would still be quite good? Would 5" groupings be typical for an average shooter?

I started wondering what a reasonable goal might be for the average person going to the shooting range. Five bullets into one single hole is about like a golf "hole in 1" which is durn near to impossible.

I'll offer 2 pieces of advice, for what they're worth. First, don't get too concerned about what's "good" and what's not. We tend to internalize these arbitrary benchmarks, and end up letting them subconsciously establish our limits. It's silly in a sad kind of way to undermine our own potential this way.

Secondly, focus on the process, not the result. The target's not important - it's merely a recording device that records how well you applied the fundamentals (sight picture and trigger control). Make it your goal to apply the fundamentals better and better each time you shoot, and the target will take care of itself.

 

[Ankeny]

Make it your goal to apply the fundamentals better and better each time you shoot, and the target will take care of itself.

That's some pretty good advice. One could also say, "Make it your goal to apply the fundamentals better and better each time you shoot, and the shot timer will take care of itself."

 

[Japle]

Here are some groups I've shot, all two-hand standing.

The last three were at 25 yds.









All those guns will group better.

I don’t claim to be able to shoot groups like that on demand every day. The guns can do it. I can’t.

Still, an expert pistol shooter should be able to shoot 2” five-shot groups at 25 yds slow-fire at least ¾ of the time, assuming the gun/ammo combination is capable of grouping around 1” or less.

 

[mikemyers]

Thanks!

I think your last sentence sums up what I was trying to find:

"....an expert pistol shooter should be able to shoot 2” five-shot groups at 25 yds slow-fire at least ¾ of the time, assuming the gun/ammo combination is capable..."

 

[Jim Watson]

An NRA 50 FOOT (16 yd 2 ft) slowfire target has a 0.9" ten ring.
A Master class shooter is going to shoot in the high 90s, meaning nearly all his shots will at least touch that .9" ring.

 

[tuj]

There's a lot of people who can shoot better than I, but this is my best at 20 yards, one-hand, 10-shots in two 5-shot strings lasting no longer than 10 seconds (aka 'rapid fire' for bullseye). This is a B3 target (50') shot at 20 yards.

 

[mikemyers]

Jim, what you said would simplify things.... changing the wording to fit what you suggested:

"....an expert pistol shooter should be able to shoot 1” five-shot groups at 15 yds slow-fire at least ¾ of the time, assuming the gun/ammo combination is capable..."


I like that because every range I've been to provides the ability to shoot at 15 yards, and all we'd need to do is measure the group size. This also separates the sight alignment from the ability of the shooter/gun. I figure "3/4 of the time" and "most of the time" are about the same.


Tuj, what I'm trying to figure out here isn't the "best" that someone can do, but what he's likely to do most of the time. A lucky grouping, or an unlucky "flyer" doesn't count.

 

[tuj]

Mike: look at bullseye scores from Camp Perry. That will give you a very good idea of what the top shooters are consistently able to do. Basically a top shooter will hold the 10-ring the majority of the time. http://www.nrahq.org/compete/champ3.asp The top shooters are shooting above 2600 out of 2700 possible. At 50 yards, the 10-ring is 3.36" in diameter. Therefore a high master level shooter should be able to put 10/10 shots in the 10 ring probably 80-90% of the time at 50 yards, one-handed.

 

[Justin]

ISSF 50 Meter Pistol competitors shoot single-shot .22 pistols using an unsupported, one-handed position.

The course of fire involves firing a total of sixty shots, for a possible perfect score of 600.

The size of the ten ring is just under two inches. Scores of 570/600 are considered to be world class.

For results, you can search the ISSF website to see the scores from the Beijing Olympics. (You'll have to navigate the drop down menus to find the scores for 50 Meter pistol.)

The guy who took gold in Beijing did it by shooting a score of 563/600.

I've shot a few Free Pistol events in my life, and it is an extremely difficult game, and one that is 99.99% mental.

 

[mikemyers]

Justin - wow... I went there, and found the results, without really understanding what they represent. I then went to the rule book (http://www.issf-sports.org/documents/rules/2009/english/pdf/ISSFRuleBook2009-en-3rd.pdf) and I find myself way in over my head.

For the purpose of this thread, all I was after was a simple one-sentence definition, such as what we've come up with up above. I'm also interested in what the world championship levels are..... I've got a lot more reading to do.

In the Free Pistol events you shot at, what kind of results were people getting (in terms of distance to target, and group size - or was it only one or two shots, scored by how close to the bullseye they were? I'm guessing that it was assumed you already had the gun sighted in, meaning group size wasn't the key factor - instead, it was simply how many points you scored.

(Did any of those competitive guns fire 45 ammo, or do they use something else, perhaps because the ammo is more accurate?)