Handgun accuracy question.

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model14

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Do you believe 1 MOA accuracy is possible from a bench rest handgun using a telescopic sight? If so, would you site an example of make handgun and caliber. Thanks.

Am I correct in saying that 1 MOA is a 2 inch "group" at 100 yards, or is it a 1 inch "group"? Thanks again.
 
I dont know what sort of hand gun you are firing from, but the S&W M&P .45 papers state that the gun is tested to be accurate at or within 3.6 inch group at about 21 yards at the factory. More than good enough for me.
 
Am I correct in saying that 1 MOA is a 2 inch "group" at 100 yards, or is it a 1 inch "group"?

1 MOA is approximately 1" at 100 yards.

I'm no expert, but it seems to me 1 MOA accuracy from a handgun is a pretty tall order. If any are capable of it, my money'd be on a Contender. I understand the world record for handgun accuracy was set with one.

I've also read interbuz claims of MOA accuracy from some Freedom Arms revolvers.
 
1 MOA accuracy from a handgun at 100 yards is preaty hard, ofcourse, if you get a handcannon in a rifle caliber, then yes absolutly.

one of the most accurate autoloaders is the SIG210 in 9mm, off a ransom rest you can expect a 1 inch 5shot group at 50 yards with good handloads, but that is propably as good as it gets in service grade autoloaders.
there are revolvers that will do the same, maybe even better.
 
Many scoped Smith & Wesson, Colt, Ruger and Freedom Arms revolvers are capable of 1 MOA accuracy with select handloads mated to the guns.

Very nearly 1 MOA at 100 yards with factory loads:
http://www.shootingtimes.com/handgun_reviews/sw_17647/

http://www.outdoorlife.com/articles/gear/hunting/2007/09/gun-review-smith-wessons-460xvr-revolver

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Sa...efining+Handgun+Accuracy?packedargs=pagenum=1

But the limiting factor is not the guns or loads. Very few handgun shooters can shoot 1 MOA with any handgun, even off a rest.

rc
 
Thanks everyone for the response. I asked the above question because I have set 1 MOA accuracy as a goal for my 4" 686 shooting handloaded .357 magnums. You have given me enough information to convince me to continue the pursuit. To date I have achieved 2" grouping at 100 yards with a 30mm, 4 MOA Ultra Dot red dot sight. This is from my homemade handrest using balsa wood blocks.
Next week I will receive a Thompson Center pistol scope with 2.5 to 7 power magnification. I believe my current accuracy achievements have been limited by my eyesight and the red dot. Hopefully the new scope will make a big difference.
I am using 10.0 grns of Accurate #5 behind a Hornady 125 grn HP-XTP. I estimate muzzle velocity at around 1200-1300 FPS.
This sure is a lot of fun!
 
I asked the above question because I have set 1 MOA accuracy as a goal for my 4" 686 shooting handloaded .357 magnums. You have given me enough information to convince me to continue the pursuit. To date I have achieved 2" grouping at 100 yards with a 30mm, 4 MOA Ultra Dot red dot sight.


Is the gun otherwise stock? Again, I'm no expert, but this is impressive, either way.

Honestly, I'd email some of the respected revolver smiths out there to get their opinion as to whether you could ever hope for 1 MOA from a 686, and what you may need to do to get it. I'd try to get as many opinions as possible - it'd be interesting to see their comparative opinions. Some that come to mind include:

Randy Lee
http://www.apextactical.com/

Grant Cunningham
http://www.grantcunningham.com

Jim Clark, jr
http://clarkcustomguns.com/

Hamilton Bowen
http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/NEW/ContactUs.htm

Cylinder & Slide
https://www.cylinder-slide.com/

Mark Hartshorn
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

Matt Almeda
http://www.revolverarmorer.com/
 
2" at 100 yds with a stock 686 is darned impressive, you've got yourself a ringer! 2" at half the distance is probably more typical for stock S&W DA revolver.

1 MOA, like others, I'd say a Contender or Freedom Arms Model 97. In fact, with proper load selection, either of these can group well under 1 MOA. I've heard of FA Model 97s grouping as small as 3/8 MOA, though I've never seen this with my own eyes.
 
I must admit I have only achieved that on several occasions. As the circle gets smaller I am learning that there are many factors involved other than pure mechanical effects. Sometimes I will be holding a perfect focus on the red dot and the target alignment just wont come in. When this happens I have to stop the trigger pressure and start over. Sometimes the red dot won't focus properly. Sometimes I can't stop the red dot from moving around know matter how hard I try. I have asked my optometrist about this and she says what I am trying to accomplish is very much tied to my mental state the exact instant the trigger is being pressured. This effect varies from range visit to range visit (good days and bad days). I use a 25 yard NRA Slow- Fire target. The black bull is only slightly larger than the 4 MOA (the red dot size) at 100 yards (5 1/4"). The red dot itself is made up of three smaller dots and usually one is brighter than the other. It will be interesting to see if the scope helps this or all factors are still there and causing problems. I bought the exact scope that Thompson Center uses on their 1 MOA single shots.

My 686 has been worked over by me for trigger pull (about 2 1/2 pounds and zero creep) and one cylinder index position is noticeably tighter than the others. The associated tight chamber is what I use for the shot, and no others. I handle the cartridge the exact same way with every loading into the chamber to ensure the powder distribution is the same. Accurate #5 is very dense and only takes up about 3/5 of the shell volume. Using balsa wood for my rest allows me to "settle in" the barrel and butt before each shot.

My choice of the .357 versus other calibers may be wrong, but intuition is telling me otherwise. It has been chambered by S&W for a long long time. Right now the bullet or the gun is not my limitation. It may become so sometime down the road. I am the limiting factor right now.

What truly amazes me is that there are shooters in this world (or have been) that can shoot better than I am using off-hand! I am a lousy off-hand shooter and that is why I find the most satisfaction in bench work It is more technical.
 
Well, I'm a relative noob, especially in the area of reloading. I don't want to derail the thread, but I've recently started dabbling in target loads, so you've got my curiosity up:

Do you sort your brass? Bullets? How? Weight? Length? Mouth run-out? Does it matter? Does one matter more than others?

What powder dispenser are you using? Seems it'd have to be awfully precise, i.e. throw exactly the same charge each time.

Your choice of bullet is especially surprising to me - I would've thought a heavier bullet would have more contact area for the rifling and have more resistance to shedding velocity (i.e. higher BC) and to wind. Have you tried a heavier bullet? Also, I would've expected such accuracy to necessarily come from a cast bullet, not jacketed. What've been your experiences with cast?

I'm not a bullseye shooter, and I know the best are pretty darned good, but it'd surprise me to hear that even the elite are able to shoot 2 MOA. I dunno, maybe Jim Clark, Sr, Harry Reeves or Bill Blankenship. I know their accuracy was legendary, but still...
 
MrBorland,
Good questions. I do not do anything with my brass, I use Hornady 5 stage progressive reloading equipment with the case actuated powder dispenser. I do not weigh my bullets or do any kind of sorting of any components. I measure my powder loads every ten cartridges to make sure my settings have not changed. They rarely do. If the loading changes by a tenth of a grain I doubt if it has a significant affect on accuracy (I am probably wrong here, but my scale can do no better than a tenth anyway).

I use jacketed bullets because I believe the higher the velocity the more stable the bullet and the less affected by wind and, of course, less drop. It is no surprise to me that a .204 hustling along at 4000 fps is probably as stable a condition as can be achieved. The less time to target, the less time outside disturbances have to ruin accuracy. Shooting lead bullets at more than 1000 fps is considered a no-no (ref: Hornady Reloading Manual). If I were sticking with 25 yard shooting, I would be using the .38 in a wad cutter light load at about 800 fps (again Hornady says that is the most accurate velocity for lead). But since my bullets are in the air 4 times longer than that I want high velocity. I use the hollow point XTP because I believe it is the most stable flying bullet made. The hollow point moves more mass outward and with the spin gives more stability (my idea, could be very wrong). I use 125 grain bullets as a compromise. The heavier bullet does have a better BC (it is longer) but it also has more recoil in order to keep the same velocity. It also has more surface area to engage the bore. To be honest here, a friend of mine recently sold me 400 125 grain bullets, so that is what I am using. In my area there are no Hornady bullets to be had, period. I called Hornady and they are woefully back ordered!

Once I feel that I am not the limitation in accuracy (after wringing all I can out of the new scope), I will then start playing with bullet weights, type and cartridge variables. I usually know when the big boom happens (and a .357 loaded with 10 grains of AA#5 is a pretty big boom) whether or not it was a good shot without having to look at the target. When I keep calling good shots but the bullet holes don't support that, then I will start looking more at my equipment.

I am almost 70, so I have a few physical and mental limitations, but I sure enjoy the challenge. I am also a runner and swimmer, so I have good physical conditioning which should help me get closer to the 1 MOA grouping.

I hope I answered your questions. Feel free to ask more.
 
IMG_0377.gif

Here is a pic of my Magnum Research Lone Eagle chambered in 308 Win, and some groups it has fired. It seems to be able to shoot <.5" groups with regularity with its favorite load: 130 Horn SP and 42.5 grains of VV N133.
 
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