Handgun Accuracy - Should I be happy with 6" groups at 25 yds?

[Narwhal]

Hi,

I was wondering what people consider acceptable accuracy from a handgun.

Today was the first time I really tried to to test the accuracy of one of mine, a S&W M&P 40 pro series with night sights & Federal HST 180gr ammo.

I was a little bit disappointed that after firing 100 shots in 20 5 shot groups, I was only averaging 6". The smallest group was 4.5" and the largest was 8", but the average was right around 6".

This was with resting the pistol on sandbags on a bench, sitting in a chair, and really taking my time while making sure I had the exact same point of aim on every shot.

One interesting thing in my goups is that often the first shot in every string was the outlier, about 5" low, then the next 4 shots would usally be within 2" of each other right around the bullseye.

I'm not the best shooter in the world of course but I'm wondering if this is OK accuracy for a $600, duty-type pistol in most people's eyes?

 

[scaatylobo]

Combat gun

I venture to say that you are shooting a combat pistol.

That being the case I hope you never have to take a pistol shot at 25 yards.

But if you do,your aiming for "minute of body mass".and that is 5 to 8" at best.

I like to believe that I can do a head shot with all my S/D carry guns.

But with a short barreled pistol that is ONLY under perfect conditions.

3' to 7 yards is the general rule of practice with a handgun for S/D purpose.

I have gone to 25 yards to shoot a qual for dept,but that takes a good deal of time and practice.

 

[Certaindeaf]

With those first shots being low, I'd check for bullet setback. Hitting lower means higher velocity/pressure. and maybe a kaboom

 

[BCRider]

For rested shooting I'd say that the combo of gun and ammo isn't a good match. Even a service grade gun should be able to achieve 4 inch or better. I'd even say that a good match of ammo to any service gun from rested and with decent vision or a scope and technique should be able to obtain 2 to at most 3 inch groups without too much trouble.

The thing is that even shooting from a rested position the shooter's vision ability and technique comes into play. The gun may be fine but if you are not sharp eyed and using the bull to sights picture in a way that ensures the most accuracy or if you're snatching at the trigger in some manner or not using a hold which ensures a nice balanced trigger pressure in a straight back lineup then the results will open up. Even if you can obtain great results from some other gun it may be that the grip shape and trigger reach is combining to stack things up against you with the M&P.

So there's lots of things to check and try before it turns out to be the gun. For starters try some dry firing where a buddy balances a spent casing on the slide just behind the front sight. That'll show if your hold and pull is even and directly back with no side loading. Even if you can do this with other guns the M&P grip and trigger reach may be causing some issues which this test will bring out.

 

[Narwhal]

Well I, I have a few other pistols....an H&K USP 40, a S&W 327 .357 mag, and a S&W 22a. I guess I need to shoot some of these other pistols in the same manner before I really try to draw any conclusions.

 

[MrBorland]

Should I be happy with 6" groups at 25 yds?

eh...no.

Even a service grade gun should be able to achieve 4 inch or better. I'd even say that a good match of ammo to any service gun from rested and with decent vision or a scope and technique should be able to obtain 2 to at most 3 inch groups without too much trouble.

This.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Again, considering you're getting essentially 2" groups at twenty five yards save the first shot, and it's low, I'd definitely check for bullet setback.

 

[vossman]

I have the same gun, i could only get 5 inch groups at 25yds. That was off a rest with hand loads. I was ok with that but maybe I should expect better.

 

[mljdeckard]

Not from any modern service pistol. I would try a factory load in a lighter bullet.

 

[beag_nut]

Your question,
Depends on the handgun. For a GP100 with 6" barrel, that would be poor. For a Ruger .22 Mark I,II,II, also poor. For a Charter Arms, that would be excellent. I am guessing that for the Smith it's about average, to less.

 

[Narwhal]

Again, considering you're getting essentially 2" groups at twenty five yards save the first shot, and it's low, I'd definitely check for bullet setback.

Thanks for your help. Is there any way to check for this without a pair of calipers? The first round certainly doesn't seem to be loose or visually recessed to the naked eye after chambering then ejecting unfired. I just chambered a few rounds then ejected them to check for this and found no signs of setback.

 

[lobo9er]

This was with resting the pistol on sandbags on a bench, sitting in a chair, and really taking my time while making sure I had the exact same point of aim on every shot.

Might not be you. with a rest and what not you should be able to do much better. lots of smart guys and gals here will be able to help out.

 

[Japle]

I was wondering what people consider acceptable accuracy from a handgun.

Most of the handgun shooters you’ll see at the range have no proper training. They don’t have any real idea of trigger control, follow-through and calling their shots. For them, 6” groups are about the best they can do.

Your gun is probably capable of 3” groups or better and a good shot should be able to shoot groups that size from a two-hand standing position.

If you want to be a good pistol shot, instead of just another average lead-slinger, find a well trained pistol shooter who’s willing to work with you.

 

[MrBorland]

If your 1st shot is always the outlier, the process of chambering could be the issue. It shouldn't be an issue, but that 1st round is different from the others in that it's the only one you chambered. Setback aside, do those ejected rounds display any damage to the bullet or casing? Maybe try some other mags as well.

Try this next time you're at the range: Load your mags as usual, say 10 rounds. Chamber your 1st round as usual, then shoot 2 consecutive but separate 5-shot groups. The 1st shot from the first group will be the only round you manually chambered. If it's a chambering issue, you'll get that 1st flier with the 1st group, but all 5 rounds clustered nicely from the 2nd group.

 

[Bikewer]

The most accurate handgun I ever handled was my old S&W M27, which would print 2" groups off a rest at 50 yards.
Of course, I was young and had good eyes at the time.....

However... Way back when I was in the army, we had just gone through qualification with the M1911 pistol. Many of the GIs who were issued this weapon performed...Miserably. They blamed the "old, worn-out, and inaccurate" pistols.
The unit armorer took half a dozen of same at random from the armory and shot them all off a rest at the standard 25-yard pistol target. They would all stay in "the black".
The complaints were considerably muted....

 

[plateshooter]

In the gun club I belong to, we have several "been there done that" retired operators who are very generous with their knowledge and help. The standard they use for an unrested fighting type pistol with self defense type ammo, is keeping all of your shots in a piece of printer paper at 25 yards. If a shooter gets that down, we go to a 1/2 sheet. Very few people that I have seen can consistently do that with a standard Glock, M&P, XDm type out of the box gun.

On a few days, I can keep my shots on the 1/2 sheet, but most days on the full sheet. I am happy with that for a self defense gun.

 

[Certaindeaf]

Thanks for your help. Is there any way to check for this without a pair of calipers? The first round certainly doesn't seem to be loose or visually recessed to the naked eye after chambering then ejecting unfired. I just chambered a few rounds then ejected them to check for this and found no signs of setback.

Eyeballing is certainly better than nothing, especially if they're placed on a flat surface, in good light, the stars have aligned, etc.
Nothing takes the place of a good measuring device though. I like a micrometer.
Perhaps a bigbrain here can tell us how many thousands of psi that round can/will go up with but a miniscule amount of setback.

 

[Harvest]

Practice with an NRA instructor

Shooting seems such an easy thing when you watch the TV, but there is a great deal of practice that goes into a "shooter," and while the 25 ft shot is some kind of benchmark (no pun intended), it is not a regular combat shot. It is perfectly possible to put a bullet in a head at 25 feet, leave that for later.

Get into an NRA class. I know you know one end of the gun from another, but start with the basics and go from there. A good instructor can also help with ammo selection. Practice, practice, practice. Put the lessons you learn in class into action. Don't over do the sessions and get burnt out.

You will find shooting from a standing position and moving from side to side and front to back become instinctive over a little time. Don't worry about a 6" group. Worry about practical shooting and getting hands on attention from someone that works with you.

I read a bunch of great advice. This is just my 2 cents.

 

[wanderinwalker]

Try MrBorland's idea first. Two 5-shot groups from the same 10-rd magazine. I've heard of some autoloading rifles shooting the first round out of a group due to the difference in manual chambering, but I've never witnessed it. Easy enough to rule out.

Other thoughts:

Try your other pistols using the same technique and see what you get for an average then. See if the first round flier remains constant or goes away.

Are you shooting all subsequent rounds from the trigger's reset point? I know you can shoot a Glock from the reset and have a shorter and lighter travel, but I don't know if the M&P can be run the same way. (I don't remember the M&P45 I tried having a very clear reset.)

Have you tried other ammo? It could be your M&P just doesn't like that particular load. (My Glock 17 isn't a tack driver with Winchester 127gr +P+ ammo, but shoots fine with any old 115gr ball ammo.)

And no, don't settle for 6" 25-yard groups. You should be able to take head shots on IDPA silhouettes with confidence from 25-yds, and to do that you'll want to be down in the 4" range.

(Heck, I like to practice on IDPA targets from 50-yds sometimes and enjoy dropping rounds from a 4" DA .357 onto the 100-yd rifle plate. )

 

[Japle]

In the gun club I belong to, we have several "been there done that" retired operators who are very generous with their knowledge and help. The standard they use for an unrested fighting type pistol with self defense type ammo, is keeping all of your shots in a piece of printer paper at 25 yards. If a shooter gets that down, we go to a 1/2 sheet. Very few people that I have seen can consistently do that with a standard Glock, M&P, XDm type out of the box gun.

Oh, I strongly disagree. I know some retired SEALs and Delta guys who’d laugh at that kind of accuracy standard. Even little ‘ol me shooting DA at 25 yds can beat that any day.

 

[W.E.G.]

Is this the first time you've done this type of "accuracy test?"

What is your resume of experience in shooting handguns off a benchrest?

 

[9mmepiphany]

Try this next time you're at the range: Load your mags as usual, say 10 rounds. Chamber your 1st round as usual, then shoot 2 consecutive but separate 5-shot groups. The 1st shot from the first group will be the only round you manually chambered. If it's a chambering issue, you'll get that 1st flier with the 1st group, but all 5 rounds clustered nicely from the 2nd group.

This is also what I would suggest...or load 11, backstop the first shot and shoot 2 5-shot groups; then repost back.

It just occurred to me that it might also be the sight alignment you are using. Are you aligning the tops of the front and rear sight, balancing the light on either side of the front sight in the rear notch and placing the intended POA atop the front sight?

While there have been some early M&P9s that had accuracy issues, the issue did not extend to the M&P40 (it had to do with when the barrel unlocked). Your M&P40, off a rest, should be grouping close to 2"...because it should hold 4" at 50 yards.

6" at 25 yards, for supported shooting, wouldn't make me happy at all

 

[jdh]

None of my S&W pistols in 40 liked the 180 gr ammo. Try the lighter weights before you give up on it.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

After you sort out all the advice above, you may still deal with the fact that some guns are better others. There will always be on from a production run that will shoot GREAT, and several that are just so-so. Like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're going to get.

 

[Narwhal]

Is this the first time you've done this type of "accuracy test?"

What is your resume of experience in shooting handguns off a benchrest?

Pretty much, yes. I don't normally shoot handguns off a benchrest. Like most people, I usually shoot handguns offhand.

This is also what I would suggest...or load 11, backstop the first shot and shoot 2 5-shot groups; then repost back.

It just occurred to me that it might also be the sight alignment you are using. Are you aligning the tops of the front and rear sight, balancing the light on either side of the front sight in the rear notch and placing the intended POA atop the front sight?

Yes, I'm keeping the tops of the front and rear sight as dead even as I can get them, with the front sight as dead center as possible in the notch, with equal amounts of light on both sides. On the following targets you can see some examples of what I'm experiencing. On the M&P I have to align the top of the sights with the bottom of the page (the absolute bottom of the entire beige square) to get shots in the black. So yeah, it's a 6 o'clock hold, due to the way the sights are installed apparently; it's a more drastic 6 o'clock at this distance than I would normally prefer.

I ran through another 35 shots of HST 180gr this afternoon. Each time it was 10 rounds in the mag, the first group was with a manually chambered first round, the next group was with the remaining 5 rounds, etc etc.

M&P 40 pro 5" Average Group Size = 5.5" w/ 180gr Federal HST

Here are the first two targets:

You can see I have drawn an arrow to the cold bore/new mag impact on this one:

This is the next 5 shot group, using the last 5 rounds in the same magazine:


Unfortunately most of the groups being shot with a fresh mag looked like target 0, such as this, the 7th target, containing shots 31-35 of the session (I started with target number 0):



Sometimes there were just big groups that weren't related to a 1st shot though. I could post all of the targets if anyone really wanted.

Lastly I shot two groups with a different type of ammo, Federal WM5223 180gr FMJ and got a 4" and 6.5" group, so not much different. I didn't have any 155 or 165gr ammo to try.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Next I shot my USP 40c for comparison,
also with 180gr HST. Keep in mind this is a smaller pistol with a shorter sight radius than the M&P 40 pro (3.5" vs 5" barrel, 5.35" vs 7.125" sight radius). It has the same type of sights; night sights.

Interestingly, with the H&K my point of aim was at the bottom of the black circle, not the bottom of the whole page, like it was with the M&P.

H&K USP 40c Average Group Size: 3.877" w/ Federal 180gr HST

Here are a few random groups from the 8x 5 round groups I fired (again, 40 rounds total):



So there you have it....not completely scientific but I managed to kill an afternoon. I shoot pretty consistent sub 4" groups @ 25 yards with the HK USP 40c (including one 2.75" group today), although my best group was in fact with the M&P 40 5" pro, @ 2.542". The H&K didn't display the 1st round low phenomenon that I got with the M&P.