Handgun Accuracy - Should I be happy with 6" groups at 25 yds?

[45_auto]

Watch some other people at the range shoot. Ask one of them who's really good to shoot your guns for you.

Easiest way I can think of to find out if it's the gun or you.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That is really quite a difference between POA and POI at 25 yards.

Oh wait, when you say, "resting on sandbags"; are the sandbags under the slide/frame, the magazine, or your wrist?

It looks look you are varying your gripping pressure during your strings of fire

 

[Narwhal]

I was using the sandbag earlier today....when I fired the groups pictured I ditched the sandbag for a rifle rest. For the pictured groups I was just resting the frame of the pistols, the part underneath the muzzle, on a rifle rest. The rifle rest was on top of a bench and I was shooting from a chair behind the bench. It's the type of setup you see at most commercial shooting ranges (at least where I live).

POA/POI was the same for the M&P whether it was resting on a sandbag or on the rifle rest. When I was using the sandbag it was under the slide/frame, in the same spot as the rifle rest.

I'm not sure about the grip pressure; I was using my standard grip which is pretty firm, but not excessively so, and tried to stay consistent but admit I wasn't thinking about grip pressure too much; more sight alignment, respiratory pause, front sight focus, trigger squeeze, and follow through.

 

[firesky101]

Since it is always shot #1 on a fresh mag, I would certainly be looking for lockup problems. I would try chambering the round in different ways. Try following the slide forward for a light impact, then drop it from the slide release for a solid impact. If you can get it to change that first shot depending on how you chamber it, then S&W needs to look at it as it is not locking up properly.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I was wondering if you'd try something the next time you go out.

Move the target in closer...something between 5-10 yards...and shoot at a much smaller target...like the 1" stick-on bullseyes. Rather than shoot at an indistinct point like "the bottom of the sheet of paper", put a bullseye there for you to aim at

 

[Narwhal]

I was wondering if you'd try something the next time you go out.

Move the target in closer...something between 5-10 yards...and shoot at a much smaller target...like the 1" stick-on bullseyes. Rather than shoot at an indistinct point like "the bottom of the sheet of paper", put a bullseye there for you to aim at

Sure....I will definitely try that. Of course I wanted to shoot at the B-16 target's bullseye with the M&P at 25 yards but the POI/POA situation necessitated a low hold if I wanted to be on paper. The contrast between the bottom of the beige paper and the black target backer seemed to provide an adequate aiming point. Perhaps it would be a good idea to put a 1" sticky at the bottom of the 25 yard target to obtain a more consistent point of aim.

 

[murf]

narwhal,

suggestions:

rack the slide with gusto! pull back hard with the off hand and push forward hard with the strong hand. make it hit the slide stop hard and let go. don't "help" the slide forward.

don't rest the gun on the sandbags, or rifle rest. support your forearms only. follow through on the shot. don't ease up at the shot. keep the same grip all the way through recoil.

aim small. don't aim at the whole black area of the target. and focus on the front sight as the shot goes off, not the target.

if the sights aren't aligned as the shot goes off, you will get six inch groups.

murf

 

[lobo9er]

hmm soes look it abit like your pulling the gun down with the trigger on the low ones, maybe.

 

[hentown]

I'd opine that the nut behind the trigger needs quite a bit of adjustment.

 

[BSA1]

Several thoughts for possible causes come to mind;

1. Is the first shot coming from a clean and oiled barrel? Flyers are very common with clean barrels that still have oil in them for corrosion protection. That is the reason Benchrest and Bullseye shooters will “throw” the first shot in the berm.

2. Without knowing your level of proficiency of shooting at 25 yds. some of your follow up groups are very good.

3. Are you anticipating the first shot? Anticipating which is looking over the front sight immediately upon firing the shot will result in the shot going low.

4. When I shooting especially for tight groups I am never sure what I am measuring that day; the gun, the ammunition or myself. Only repeated range session with the same gun and ammunition will answer these questions.

5. You may be a victim of the “good enough for combat accuracy” B.S. gunwriters use in the gunrags to avoid upsetting the guns manufacturer and losing advertising $$$$$.

6. This may indeed be the best accuracy the gun is capable of. I have a semiauto from a major manufacturer whose name starts with R who exhibits the same kind of accuracy your gun does only it is DA/SA. I can live with it because of intended use and the fact I brought it on the cheap.

7. Contrary to previous comment a 8" group is minute of pie plate and will place all of your shots in the body cavity at 25 yds.

 

[mdThanatos]

Have you tried putting one round in the chamber manually then inserting the magazine, followed by shooting to see if it still gets the low first shot?

 

[Furncliff]

My daughter got me one of these for my birthday. Works great, $55 on sale from Cabelas.

 

[Bovice]

Before we start whining about accuracy at 25 yards, let's consider the distance. Convert it to inches, and triangulate the shot. The 25 yards in inches is one leg of the triangle, your radial distance off the bullseye is the other leg, and the path the bullet takes to get there is your hypotenuse.

Using these lengths and assuming it to be a right triangle, calculate the angle at the muzzle. Once you get that angle, use a protractor and look at that angle. That's all the deviation that is required to throw that shot. It isn't much. If you're hitting COM that far away, it's fine.

 

[Japle]

If you're hitting COM that far away, it's fine.

In a gunfight, maybe. That doesn't make you a good pistol shot. Any mouth-breather with no training can shoot 6" groups (more like patterns) slow fire at 25 yds.

Ask any of the top-ranked steel shooters (who can shoot, let's say, Roundabout in under 3 sec on demand) if they can shoot 2-3" groups at 25 yds with an off-the-shelf G17 or M&P or XDm. They can. You know why? They have the training. They learned the techniques and built them into skills.

When I was shooting metallic silhouette, all the International class and most of the AAA class shooters could shoot 6" groups at 200 meters with open sights from freestyle positions. I remember a shootoff where the targets were snuff cans at 150 meters. With open sights. That shootoff took a while. Some of those people just didn't miss. And they were all amateurs. No professional shooters in that match.

My point: "Good shooting" for a guy with no training and little experience would be pitiful to anyone who knows what he's doing.

Get some good training. Don't be satisfied with mediocre groups.

 

[Japle]

Here are some groups I shot with my Freedom Arms .22LR mini-revolver.

Six groups, three shots each.
Range - 200 meters.
At 2AM.
In a thunderstorm.
While drunk.
Average group size - 2.02".

 

[Dave P.]

One thing I'll do when trying for tight groups ( ammo testing ) is to
use a small hi-vis orange dot stick on bull. These give my crappy eyesight
a easier to see target and being smaller also helps.
Somebody already mentioned this above...worth repeating.
It's worth a bit in group sizes I get.
Dave

 

[Narwhal]

To 9mmepiphany and anyone else requesting smaller dots at closer range:

Here they are, this was done at 10 yards. 24 dots, 5 shots each. 60 rounds with the M&P, and 60 rounds with the H&K, Indoor range, supported from a rifle rest, Federal HST 180gr P40HST1 ammo.

Average Accuracy M&P 40 pro 5", 10 yards = 2.14"

Average Accuracy H&K USP 40c (3.5"), 10 yards = 1.44"

This is pretty consistent with what I'm seeing at 25 yards.

H&K top, M&P bottom on this one; Group 11 low shot was 1st shot of an M&P magazine, however groups 7 & 9 were also fresh mags that didn't have a flier on the first round.


M&P top, H&K bottom ont his one: Group 1,3,5,6 low shots were all 1st shots of an M&P magazine!



In Addition....I had a range officer shoot the M&P with two seperate 5 round mags. He shot a 5 round group at 3 yards his first shot was 1.5" lower than the others; the other 4 shots were one ragged hole. He then shot 5 round group at 10 yards on the head of a human outline target, going for head shots. The first shot hit the left eye, the next shot went over the head, off the paper, the 3rd shot barely skimmed the top of the paper, the 4th shot was at the top of the forehead and he walked the last shot back close to the first one (I'm guessing he was adjusting his POA as his shots started flying too high).

So yeah...even with another guy shooting my M&P, the first shot of the magazines were roughly 10 MOA lower than the rest.

Without these 1st round of magazine fliers, the M&P would be equal to the H&K if not better.

Thoughts?

 

[Texan Scott]

A) Get a revolver. They work for me! (Naturally, my preferences are what is obviously best for everyone else.)

B) This has GOT to do with the way your gun chambers the first round. The first round appears to be entering the chamber with insufficient force to seat itself like all that follow. Possibly a heavier recoil spring would help, or maybe the stack is too tight with the mag fully loaded? Have you tried down-loading the mag by 1? And drop the slide from all the way back with the stop depressed- just let the spring do the work. I had a G22 that was a great old workhorse, but it was a bit finnicky about stuff like that.

Otherwise, it looks like you have a perfectly servicable PP/SD sidearm.

 

[Narwhal]

For the M&P, I was shooting with 15 round magazines downloaded to 10. I'd shoot one group with the frist round chambered by hand, in following manner:

Slide release depressed, slide held all the way to the rear, with max tension on the spring, then released to chamber the round as forcefully as possible.

The subsequent group would consist of the bottom 5 rounds from the magazine...(none chambered manually).

The exception was the last two M&P groups (5&6) on the bottom dot target....both of those were shot with mags downloaded to 5 because I wanted one more data point for the "first round low" phenomenon.

Thanks for everyone's responses, they have been very helpful for the most part.

Have you tried putting one round in the chamber manually then inserting the magazine, followed by shooting to see if it still gets the low first shot?

No I haven't tried this, because I've always read that it can damage a pistol's extractor.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm getting a clearer picture.

Since these are all being shot off a rest, a lot of what were seeing is technique. I would have expected...since we've removed most of the alignment variable at the closer range...that all the shots would be on top of each other.

In the upper picture, looking at H&K group 6 would have been on the outside of acceptable from a rest and is what I would have expected if handheld using correct technique. It does look like you could be tightening your grip (milking) and applying pressure with your strong thumb.

To the other problem of the 1st lower shot, this might be a gun problem. Can you try one more thing?

Rather than load rounds into the chamber, try manually loading the first round from a magazine and than removing the magazine. You can then insert an empty magazine to lock the slide back after the shot or just lock it back manually.

Then manually load the next round by inserting a magazine. Repeat this 5 times until you have a group on paper with each round having been manually loaded from the magazine...in other words none of the rounds will have been loaded by the slide going through a full cycle.

This should give us a better idea as to the lockup of the barrel for the first shot.

As to the M&P shooting high. If two folks are experiencing the same issue it is more likely to be a gun issue. It could be due to a rough trigger, but I doubt you are both looking over the sights. That much difference is just too much and I'd be inclined to return it to the factory for a higher front blade...they can look at the first shot deviation while it is there

 

[Cosmoline]

In my experience, modern bottom feeders are not designed for 25 yard accuracy. They're for 10 yard or even 10 foot shooting. If you want 25+ yard precision from a handgun you either need a target pistol or get a nice vintage piece. You'll find, for example, that an old .38 Super will likely be able to drive tacks. Or you can just go with vintage wheelguns. Nearly all the old Colts and S&W's I've had--even the snubs--were sighted in for 20 or 25 yards and gave excellent groups with the right ammo.

 

[Narwhal]

To the other problem of the 1st lower shot, this might be a gun problem. Can you try one more thing?

Rather than load rounds into the chamber, try manually loading the first round from a magazine and than removing the magazine. You can then insert an empty magazine to lock the slide back after the shot or just lock it back manually.

Then manually load the next round by inserting a magazine. Repeat this 5 times until you have a group on paper with each round having been manually loaded from the magazine...in other words none of the rounds will have been loaded by the slide going through a full cycle.

This should give us a better idea as to the lockup of the barrel for the first shot.

As to the M&P shooting high. If two folks are experiencing the same issue it is more likely to be a gun issue. It could be due to a rough trigger, but I doubt you are both looking over the sights. That much difference is just too much and I'd be inclined to return it to the factory for a higher front blade...they can look at the first shot deviation while it is there

Thank you very much for your help. I would be satisfied with the M&P's accuracy if it would stop these first round fliers. I will try what you've suggested tomorrow and see what happens. I think I will probably ship it back to S&W and see if they'll put a taller front sight on it and look at the problem while it's there.

Maybe they will fix it, maybe not.

 

[Narwhal]

Update: I sent the pistol back to S&W and they put a new barrel in it. The new barrel has a different design than the old one with more reinforcement in the locking block area. I shot half a box of ammo through it this afternoon and was pleased with the results. It has the same 3-dot night sights as before, which are novak's with a .135" wide x .165" tall front w/ a .140 wide notched, ramped rear sight. The ammo was Federal HST 180gr JHP P40HST1, like always.

The first group after return from the factory I shot using center hold. After that group, I adjusted to a 6 o'clock hold and the rounds started landing in the black nicely. These 5, five-shot groups averaged 3.11" center-to-center at 25 yards, fired slow fire from a sandbag on a rest, 80 degrees F and 50% humidity, calm wind.

All in all I'm very pleased with the replacement barrel S&W provided. It has effectively cut my group size with this pistol in half. The "first round low" phenomenon is totally gone and I'm very happy with this M&P now; it's shooting as well in my hands as any other pistol I own, including the H&K's and revolvers. It now appears to be shooting under 4" at 25 yards pretty consistently, and the 1.863" group is a personal best so far!

Thanks for everyone's help, I'm going to call this "case closed" . Congratulations to S&W on their fine customer service.

 

[BSA1]

The problem I have with accuracy testing is I never know for sure what I am testing that particular day; the gun, the ammunition or myself.

Since the biggest variables are the shooter I make sure I am focusing on the fundamentals first.

 

[exbrit49]

Off hand would have been OK

If the OP had been shooting offhand the results would have been fine. but off a rest I don't think that's acceptable.
Not blowing my horn but yesterday was a real nice day and I took quite a few of my handguns out and was shooting at 20yds offhand
I didn't take pics of my targets as I wasn't real happy with them but I do remember the results.
Blackhawk shooting 45 COlt. 50 shots in a 4.5 inch group
Same gun shooting 45 ACP 50 shots in a 5 inch group with one flyer. (the wind rocked me)
Ruger P89 45ACP 24 rounds in a 5 inch group
Ruger P95DC 9mm 30 rounds in less than 5 inch
S & W model 19. shooting 38 special. 50 rounds in under 4 inch. No targer center left!.
So its now made me wonder how I would do off a rest? Going to give it a try next time out.