Advised a friend, did I miss anything?

[Sam1911]

The elite ESU of the NYPD use M&P .357magnum revolvers for special ops.

Ok, I'll bite. What kind of special ops do they use a revolver for?

 

[goon]

I've read that some police agency - somewhere - was using a few of them to shoot around riot shields. I guess the practice was to reach around the shield and sight the gun through a window, and since automatics require a certain grip, a revolver was chosen instead.

Not sure if that's what Mr. Shackleford was thinking of or not, nor am I sure how many of them are actually in use.

Looks like a nice firearm, but man, they ruined it with that &*$%& internal lock!

 

[medalguy]

Going back to his choice of a .243, if he really needs to "bug out" and get out of town, that's not a commonly available caliber as compared to, say, .308 or 12 ga. Just a thought.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Going back to his choice of a .243, if he really needs to "bug out" and get out of town, that's not a commonly available caliber as compared to, say, .308 or 12 ga. Just a thought.

Only mentioned he had a .243, not that he planned to use it as a BOW. He's sticking with the 12 gauge, and searching for a pistol.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Sam Sam Sam.....

Oh Sam....
The ESU(Emergency Services Unit) uses the big M&P R8 for use with body bunkers & "barricaded" subjects.
A THR member reported recently the revolvers were deployed because a semi auto pistol would require 2 hands to clear a jam where the ESU member could just rotate the N frame cylinder & fire a new round.
Id think the handy feature of the 1913 rail for white lights/laser dots could be useful in a CQB event.
Not having ejected cases fly into your face or having a semi auto pistol slide crack you in the head would be ideal too.

Rusty

 

[Sav .250]

I think I would have had more conversations with him before offering any help. That`s just me though.

 

[Spats McGee]

A buddy of mine is getting into 'prepping' for SHTF stuff. The thread is not about that, I know that subject is verboten.

He asked me, the closest person be has to a firearms expert, about getting a new gun in case he ever had to bug out.

He first asked about pistols, and after a basic primer on different types of actions (he's not well versed on handguns) he's considering the Springfield XD and the S&W M&P, in 9mm. He still wants to rent and test just to make sure.

I recommended a rifle, if he was really worried about SD/HD, and showed him a couple ballistic charts for various ammo, and overpenetration concerns with the same ammo.

But, things took a turn when I asked him how often he planned to practice. He said in all honesty, maybe once a year. This immediately changed my advice, which was leaning toward an M4 profile carbine. Without the dedication to learn an unfamiliar platform, and knowing he already had and was comfortable with his Mossberg 500, I advised him to stick with what he knows. I advised him to take a portion of his "new gun" budget and take a shotgun class. Since he still wants a pistol, a local training center offers a low light shotgun and pistol course, for $150.

He asked about accessories for his shotgun, and I advised him to keep it simple. A sling, fiber optic front sight, a fore end rail for a light, and maybe an optic and mount. Oh, and the 18.5" barrel.

Did I miss anything? I'm satisfied with my advise, but don't want to steer him the wrong way. I felt that dropping the money for a rifle he'd never become proficient with could get him killed if he ever had to use it in an emergency. Keep it simple, stick with what you know, was the gist of my advise.

. . . . He's sticking with the 12 gauge, and searching for a pistol.

I haven't read all of the intervening posts, but I'll offer my two cents. It's a good idea for your buddy to stick with the 12 gauge. IMHO, the 12 gauge pump shotgun may be the most versatile firearm available to him. (There may be some exotic stuff that'll do more, but I doubt it.) It'll enable him to swap from light loads to heavy to slugs, and he'll be able to hunt just about anything he needs to hunt. And the Mossberg is no slouch in the reliability department, so that shouldn't be overlooked.

As for a pistol, personally, I'd probably go with a .357 revolver. Again, versatility comes into play, so being able to shoot .38 and .357 is a plus. Also, the .357 is certainly an adquate round for lots of different things.

Two things he should consider: (1) Weight of ammo. If this is "bug out" preparation, then this is a big deal. IIRC, a box of 12 ga. shells weighs something like 3 lbs, so lots of shells turns into a mobility limiter pretty quick. (2) For bug out purposes, ammo availiability could turn out to be a factor, especially if the but out turns into something long-term. On the one hand, very popular round may mean that there's lots of ammo available right now, but if a serious crunch hits and he has to bug out, it could also mean that there will be lots of competition for those rounds.

Food for thought, anyway.

 

[stonecutter2]

I think your advice was sound. Well thought out.

A class will help him more than anything.

I agree with keeping the shotgun simple, but with what you recommended it seems cluttered. Forget the sling and the optics, in my opinion. For whatever it's worth. Fiber optic front sight (tritium fiber optic if possible).

Beyond firearms, he should be focused on how he intends to store water. Water is critical if anything really goes south.

 

[Sam1911]

Oh Sam....
The ESU(Emergency Services Unit) uses the big M&P R8 for use with body bunkers & "barricaded" subjects.

Ok, GREAT! Now, show me some documentation of that. I am always interested in hearing of any revolvers being issued by an agency.

That's a neat theory of why they might use a revolver, though I'm not sure it is compelling enough to actually do so.

But provide some documentation on this, please.

 

[Cee Zee]

IMHO, the 12 gauge pump shotgun may be the most versatile firearm available to him

I totally agree with this. You can make your shotgun accurate to 200 yards or more with a rifled barrel and some sabot slugs. Or you can stick with a smooth barrel and get some Foster slugs. A smooth bore is more versatile. You can go with everything from a Brenneke slug to tri-ball to light loaded bird shot. It's hard to eat a squirrel that's been blasted with a Brenneke slug. You can effectively carry what seems like several guns just by having several types of rounds with you. Yes they are heavy compared to a .22 but it's very hard to kill a deer with a .22 especially if you don't practice shooting.

I think the whole idea of bugging out is pretty buggy unless you really know what you're doing. Your friend may have learned enough to survive but one of the first things he will need to know is to avoid trespassing because the people who have paid taxes on land they bought and sweated on to keep are not going to be happy about having others invade to kill the game. My farm has been invaded by people from a resort scam (they bought camp sites with the promise of great things to come that never came). They seem to think that the woods are free to be used by anyone. Wrong.

At any rate your friend might well be going to government land which is open to everyone. But the question becomes exactly what does he want a gun for. Does he want to defend himself against predators (2 or 4 legs), does he want to provide food for himself, what size game does he have in mind (one person can't eat a whole deer in the summer before it goes bad - in the winter most of it can be buried and preserved for a time), or does he want one gun to do it all. I suggest the latter and that gun is a shotgun. It will do everything on his list and no other gun will do that easily. You might buy a 30.06 and a wide variety of shells for it but it won't be as easy to replace those light loads as it will be to replace shotgun shells for killing small game.

I know if I ever had to be lost in the great north woods with one single gun I'd want it to be a pump shotgun. Of course I'd need a bunch of ammo for it but not as much as some seem to think. I wouldn't want to carry it all with me but I could carry a good bit. Personally I'd want an ATV converted to run on a gasifier setup. They're tricky as heck to build but they run on wood, leaves, dried moss, cow pies, or whatever will burn. You can haul all the ammo around that you want with a setup like that. I'm not trying to hijack this thread into a prepper thread. I'm just making the point that it is possible to use a gun that uses heavy ammo. You can reload those shotgun shells too if you have the equipment and the supplies.

BTW I would not want any optic on a shotgun. Too many of the shots you will want to take will be inside the range of optics. I might well use a laser sight on a shotgun though. I actually have one on my 870. It replaces the magazine cap. You would never know it was there if you didn't see the tiny switch that turns it on. It works very well too. And mine has kept working for many years so far. If you put that dot on a target you will hit that target. For someone that doesn't want to practice that could be a big thing. But be aware that most animals freak if they see that red dot (or green) on them. The trick is to shoot before they notice the dot. An iron sight setup can be good on a shotgun but anyone who has practiced with a shotgun much can use a bead sight effectively. A tritium front sight is also a good idea. So is having more than one barrel for your shotgun. You may want to bring down a goose or a duck and that's harder to do with a short barreled shotgun. Again more barrels make your one gun even more versatile. 2 or 3 barrels should be plenty. I would want a short barrel, a long barrel with a smooth bore and a long barrel with a rifled bore.

For me there's only one choice here. Two guns are better than one obviously but if you only have one then it should be a shotgun. IMO an 870 is the obvious choice because of the availability of parts and upgrades.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Oh Sam....

You can contact the ESU or NYPD press office just like I can.
Once again, Im singled out for the cyber-bullys.
I think every member should be held to this high scrutiny.
I shouldn't be required to provide sources or "drop names".
Strange how one mod is critical of me for doing one thing, yet another berates me for not doing it.

BTW; if you research the forum threads you'll see the member message that states how ESU uses the M&P R8 .357magnum.

Rusty

 

[goon]

Actually, being able to cite your sources is a pretty common thing in any argument or in any kind of research. Asking for a source is entirely legit. No cyber bullying there. If you've got a source, cite it.

And if you look back through the threads, there's one from a week or so ago about LEO revolver use. Many of us would like to be able to confirm your claim as part of that thread. It sounds reasonable and I remember reading something like that years ago myself.

But a dusty memory rattling around in ol' goon's head isn't exactly a concrete source either.

 

[Cee Zee]

I should have mentioned that a .22 can certainly be a good choice for a single firearm to have with you. A good, light weight rifle can allow you to walk with lots of ammo on you and not get too worn out. You can kill a lot of game with a .22. With practice it's possible to bring down a deer with one. I wouldn't suggest that unless things were really extreme but a shot to the head can certainly kill a deer.

 

[Sam1911]

You can contact the ESU or NYPD press office just like I can.

Eh, I'm not the one making the claim.

Once again, Im singled out for the cyber-bullys.

Oh...kay.

I think every member should be held to this high scrutiny.

Pretty much anyone who makes an unexpected/extraordinary claim around here is asked to verify where that information came from. If you don't, that's fine. Just say, "I can't verify this, but it is a rumor I heard."

I shouldn't be required to provide sources or "drop names".

Well, my goodness! I will say you win the gold medal award for irony this month! Heavens, that's rich!

Strange how one mod is critical of me for doing one thing, yet another berates me for not doing it.

Maybe you've misunderstood.

BTW; if you research the forum threads you'll see the member message that states how ESU uses the M&P R8 .357magnum.

If you care enough to say it, provide some proof. I don't need to go tracking down every unusual thing you might say.

 

[USAF_Vet]

If we can we steer this back on topic, that'd be great. Thanks.

(Channeling Office Space, forgive me).

So after further discussion, I really don't know how well prepared he is, mentally, for a bad situation. He's looking to move soon, but will be going from a condo to an apartment, where he would choose to live on the second floor if available.
I know the odds of a societal breakdown resulting in mass panic, riots, looting and violence are slim to none in the Grand Rapids metro area, so it may be that I'm over prioritizing living conditions.
Its just him, but he thinks in a societal collapse, he'll be able to bug out to the Ozarks. Fat chance, and I told him as much. If its regional, he May only have to leave the county. If it's effected area is bigger where he feels the need to flee the state, odds are it ain't gonna happen.

I still stand by the Mossberg, but only in so far that he's hunkered in the basement surrounded by concrete walls. Mobile, especially on foot, I know the ammo can dang near outweigh the gun. If mobile in a vehicle, a simple handgun would generally suffice.

He's adamant about a semi auto rather than a revolver. Even though the revolver is simpler to use, he's thinking capacity.

I think he's in need of a reality check, more than anything else. I'm going to take the shotgun/ pistol class with him in the spring, so maybe that'll help.

 

[goon]

There's so much more to preparedness than having a few guns, and you're right that your friend isn't looking at that. Maybe everyone else is planning to head for the Ozarks with him in the event of a catastrophe... and then do what? Be hungry and cold and not sheltered together? Hunt for squirrels... how many squirrels are there in the Ozarks? Probably not enough for the whole population of the US and their millions of shotguns. Sorry - I shouldn't really discuss that because THR doesn't do the SHTF thing, but you're right that his expectations don't mesh with reality.

After lots of handguns, I keep coming back to revolvers because they either work or they don't, and you can check for much of that function while you're standing at the gun counter. Even in new guns, QC isn't what it should be, so you have to give them all a thorough check or plan to send it in for service... and I've done that even some of the more reputable brands (S&W and Ruger). They also usually just plain work with whatever ammo you stuff in the chambers. If all you can find is a box of 148 grain .38 wadcutters, a .357 revolver will shoot it. But it seems that sometimes it takes ten years of messing around with different handguns to come to that appreciation.

But you're still helping the guy out. Lately, my brother bought a Turkish Canik CZ clone for around $300 that uses CZ magazines (Mec Gar makes good ones) and seems to be pretty solid for the money. I've also seen Ruger P-95's around for under $300 at times. Just a couple ideas for inexpensive semi-autos if that's how it works out.

 

[Cee Zee]

I still stand by the Mossberg, but only in so far that he's hunkered in the basement surrounded by concrete walls. Mobile, especially on foot, I know the ammo can dang near outweigh the gun. If mobile in a vehicle, a simple handgun would generally suffice.

The shotgun in the basement may not be the best choice. With the advent of .223 rounds that basically disintegrate on impact that seems to now be the best choice for CQB operations. And the weight of ammo is always going to be a concern with whatever you carry because a person generally wants to carry all that they can carry. You might get more rounds of .40S&W in your backpack but the weight will end up being the same as those 12 ga. shells. And the big thing here is the versatility of the shotgun. You can't kill squirrels with a .40 very easily. You won't be able to shoot deer at 100 yards either.

It's not that hard to put 30 rounds of 12 ga. in a belt or two and carry it with you. And 30 rounds is almost always going to be more than you need for multiple situations. Prolonged shootouts generally mean that you are engaged with more than one antagonist which means that you don't have much chance no matter how many rounds you have. Shotguns were used to tame the west because they invoked great fear in anyone with a brain. They had revolvers and lever acton rifles but most people owned a shotgun if they owned a gun at all. That's still pretty much the same situation a person hiding in the Ozarks would encounter. No one wants to advance on someone with a shotgun unless they have greatly superior numbers. If that's the case you're done for anyway. If not then most likely you won't see people try to fight against a shotgun. In the jungles of Vietnam the shotgun was still a much feared weapon and a weapon of choice of many soldiers the way I understand things. I wasn't there but I've read accounts of how people used weapons there. Back in the old west Black Bart robbed over a dozen stagecoaches with a shotgun that was never even loaded and wouldn't have worked if it was according to him. Still people had so much fear of being shot with one they wouldn't think about resisting and that included shotgun riders on the stage that had their own shotguns. Getting the drop on someone makes a huge difference so when Black Bart appeared in a spot where he could top the stage with that shotgun pointed at the driver and guard the fight was pretty much over. No one in their right mind resists someone with a shotgun.

Yes they may have more weight to them considering all that's involved. But we were talking a single weapon to take. And a shotgun is it IMO. It just covers so much territory with loads ranging from bear or other dangerous game to squirrels or quail. Nothing else comes close to the kind of versatility a shotgun has. And it's a weapon that strikes massive fear in the mind of opponents. I don't know if you've seen what a slug does to flesh even at 100 yards but trust me you don't want that to be your flesh. Even birdshot loads can wreak havoc on a human in a situation where medical care may be very limited and distant.

 

[BSA1]

Shotguns were used to tame the west because they invoked great fear in anyone with a brain. They had revolvers and lever acton rifles but most people owned a shotgun if they owned a gun at all.

I think Shotguns were the gun of choices in the Old West because it could be purchased for a low cost and it's versatility. A single shot shotgun even today had be had for $100.00 and, as discussed, can be used for small game such as squirrels to big ones like a elk. There are written accounts of shotguns being used on buffalo.

Remember firearms back then were working tools and cash money was rarely seen by most folk. Even with all of the choices available we keep a H&R single shotgun that I brought for less than $100.00 by the door. Come to think of it a H&R single shot shotgun would make a dandy second long gun for your friend. My wife and daughter love shooting ours. They are as simple and basic to use as it gets and very affordable. At gunshows I lurk around looking for a good used one at a cheap enough price that I can cut the barrel back a ways and refinish in Ceracoat for a truck gun.

Cost of ammunition is another reason for the shotgun. I just brought a case of high power #6 (250 rds.) for
$58.25 including tax. Compare that to 75 rounds of 38+P for about the same amount of money.

But let's not overlook the most important feature of a handgun...they're handy. Which leads me back to suggesting a S&W Model 10 4" barrel (or the Ruger) as a important part of a self-defense battery.

 

[ArfinGreebly]

Have you offered your friend an opportunity to just, y'know, go shooting?

"Hey, why don't we head out to the range and make a little smoke and noise?"

"Here, try a few rounds through this ... great, now let's try this ... "

My youngest daughter and I have only been to the range maybe eight or ten times together, total.

In those range sessions she learned that she kinda likes the XD.40, but it's kinda snappy and heavy for her. She kinda likes one of the 9mm pistols, too, but she can actually hit stuff with a .22 pistol. And if you're going to tote a pistol, being able to actually hit stuff is kinda important. I have filed this information away against a rainy day.

We also discovered that she just plain LOVES her some Marlin Camp 9. And she can do bottle caps with it. And I have filed that, too, away against a rainy day.

Finally, she found that she has a crush on the 5.56 Kel-Tec rifles. This got even crushier when she had an opportunity to spend most of a year in Army Basic and discovered she has a bit of a knack for the M4. More rainy day info.

I also have my own preferences, but I also have this little fact filed away: I am hands down more accurate inside 100 yards with a .22 rifle or pistol than anything else I own. Especially a little Marlin 39A with a crap scope on it. OMG. Chased clays all over the berm with it.

Happily, with some practice, I have managed to reliably produce hand-sized groups with any of three 9mm pistols and, surprisingly, with the only XD.45S I've ever shot. I consistently shoot 9mm better than .40, and .22 better than 9mm.

So, thinking about emergency events and how I might have to respond, I know for sure and for certain that I can be accurate at 100 yards with that old Marlin, accurate at 30 yards with my .22 pistol, and acceptably accurate with a 9mm pistol inside of 50 yards.

I also know that I can easily carry more .22 LR per pound than anything else.

Thus, if I found myself compelled to do a little unwanted camping along a random road somewhere, and I had to contemplate any kind of hike in relation to that, I'd have to favor the Marlin and the Mk.II as my meat-n-potatoes hardware, with a 9mm for up-close social work.

I'm not 25 any more. Hell, I'm not 45 any more. Every stinking ounce matters.

Oh, and for what it's worth?

Practice. Practice.

And practice, dammit.

I don't care what you call it, "training" or whatever, but friggin' PRACTICE!

Budget for it. Buy practice ammo and then actually practice.

Think of it as a gym membership for your personal safety exercise. You may not meet a lot of hot chicks there, but you may meet some people you want to keep knowing.

Remember, if you find yourself in a firefight and you're short of firepower, the problem isn't that you don't have enough guns or ammo, the problem is that you don't have enough friends.

 

[Cee Zee]

Have you offered your friend an opportunity to just, y'know, go shooting?

The stuff you said in your post is pretty much exactly how things "should" go. It's how I taught my kids to shoot and how I got them to like it too. Heck my daughter can shoot with the best of 'em. She can go a long time without shooting then pick up a .22 rifle and shoot a group that's very tight (as long as the rifle she's shooting will do the job). But I taught her to shoot a shotgun and a handgun too. I gave her a shotgun and helped her pick out a handgun for herself which was a very good idea IMO. She was living alone in my house in the woods for a while. It's not a great place for a young girl to live alone. Her knowing how to shoot that shotgun made me sleep better and I'm sure her too.

 

[USAF_Vet]

Yes, the offer has been made. He isn't new to shooting, just out of practice. He's been a hunter for decades, but never until recently had the inclination to learn shooting for self defense.

He's obsessed now, talking about getting training, getting his CPL, even getting a C&R license.

 

[USAF_Vet]

He also disregarded my advice, and went and purchased a VZ2008. Not that it's a bad thing, since he does now seem like he will dedicate the time to get some training instead of just turning money into noise with no concept of what he's doing.

But of course, he's also ordering all the add ons available before he even has the rifle in hand. Still, his money, his choice.