After nearly 40 years Cooper finally lost me.

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All I know is that, in the event of society going entirely to crap-city, and me having to use the things, if I hit someone with one of my Nosler or Speer handloads, it's gonna be ugly. From either a .30 caliber or a .22 caliber...

Let's see... I've got 8mm, .300 winmag, .30-06, .308, 7.62x39, a whole buncha 6mm single shot ultraaccurate stuff, various .22 wildcats, a .22-250, and a few .223s... And I load anywhere from 40 grain varmint rounds through 62 grain solids up to a topper of whatever I stuff in the 8mms, which I don't shoot a lot of, so I dismember, so I don't really care. Hmpff.

If you wanna shoot for money, I'll bring one of those wimpy little .243-caliber rifles, pushing 68 grains at about 3400fps...
 
All of those wars involved the use of FMJ bullets

They didn't have FMJ's during the un-Civil War. They had cast lead with hollow bases and pointy noses. Minie ball was the hollow base bullet created to grab the rifling in a Yankee rifled musket.

if we armed our boys with @120 grain Barnes X or high quality SP's in a sweet 6.5mm cartridge at about 2,500 fps... ...We've been killing really, really big animals with PROPER bullets SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO KILL for 100 years.

Right. You hit the enemy with a 6-7.62mm bullet running about 2500fps and it's gonna do a number on 'em. A .30-30, being that it's a .308" FN SP bullet in factory loadings, is only running about 22-2300fps and it's been quite deadly on deer. Crank that same bullet up to 2800fps in the .30-06 and I've seen what it'll do to- turns a deer's vitals to mush. In the context of this thread, "bye-bye terrorist."

Regarding thatguy's post on wounding vs. killing, the problem with this line of thinking is that none of our enemies value human life and train for unit cohesion like we do. Think back to the Chinese, North Koreans, and North Vietnamese doing wave attacks. Think back to Dien Bien Phu (sp?) and how the NVese overran the French minefields, using the pointguys to trip the mines, and left their dead and wounded laying there saying "they've lived out their purpose". The only way to deal with that, assuming all you have is smallarms, IMO, is if you have plenty of machineguns. But that wouldn't have helped the French at Dien Bien Phu.

It's well known that the early M16s suffered problems, mostly due to the usage of ammo loaded with ball powder. But the M16 and it's variants have served for nearly 40 years. It must be doing SOMETHING right.

That may not be entirely true if at all. I know some vets who served with both the M14 and M16 and say to the effect that "the only reason the military won't dump the M16 is because they have too much money invested to admit they were wrong."
 
"That may not be entirely true if at all. I know some vets who served with both the M14 and M16 and say to the effect that 'the only reason the military won't dump the M16 is because they have too much money invested to admit they were wrong.'"

This is contrary to what I have heard. The vets who used the M16 I heard from sometimes didn't like the 5.56 round but I don't recall any really unhappy with the rifle itself. Most written histories of the M16 state that once the ammo was changed from ball powder the jamming problems virtually disappeared.
 
Mustanger98 - do you truly believe that the bureaucratic intransigence needed to support the "it sucks but nobody wants to fix it" theories could be so pervasive as to span multiple disconnected generations (forty plus years)of political administrations and service command structures? That's a hellova indictment of our political and military structure...
 
thatguy:
This is contrary to what I have heard. The vets who used the M16 I heard from sometimes didn't like the 5.56 round but I don't recall any really unhappy with the rifle itself. Most written histories of the M16 state that once the ammo was changed from ball powder the jamming problems virtually disappeared.

Like any other subject, what you hear depends on the experiences of those you're listening to. I know some guys who like .223/5.56mm for varmints and plinking but hate it as a combat round. I also know some guys who either love or hate the M16 series with a passion. Those who hate it say they were on the recieving end of McNamara's folly and know young soldiers and Marines who are now on the same end of McNamara's folly. Ball powder or no ball powder, due to tight tolerances and direct gas impingement, the M16 is a match rifle, and not the combat rifle it's been purported to be. I also suggest you check out Maj. Dick Culver's articles titled "The Saga of the M16 in Vietnam". It still had problems after so much "improvement" and, from 1975 on, hasn't been any lighter than an M14.

rbernie:
do you truly believe that the bureaucratic intransigence needed to support the "it sucks but nobody wants to fix it" theories could be so pervasive as to span multiple disconnected generations (forty plus years)of political administrations and service command structures?

What I see is so many people of those "miltiple disconnected generations" who don't know any better beleiving M16's are the best thing since sliced bread because that's what they issue and it looks mean. Also, I see a little too much of how they play the political games (how the M16 got adopted in the first place) not to beleive "the bureaucratic intransigence needed to support... theories could be so pervasive".

That's a hellova indictment of our political and military structure...

Yup... sure is. Take into account the political finagling with Robert McNamara and them. Then take into account a Commandant of the USMC who said "any officer who badmouths this rifle while I'm in command will never be promoted". There's more and, to my understanding, Culver told a good bit more of it in his articles.
 
thatguy:
The M16 isn't lighter than an M14???????????

Nope. Culver covered that in his articles. Used to be the M-16 was about 7-8lbs, which was lighter than an M14. IIRC, about 1975, they started using a heavier barrel and a couple of other modifications that added the weight back on. Plus all that walnut on a Garand or M14 will fool you about the weight differences between them and the M16.

Now I guess we get back around to the ammo weight arguement- whether it's more practical to carry twice as much of a less effective round. Before anybody jumps on how they'd rather spray&pray and wound the enemy to tie up the enemy's resources, consider that the .30-06 and 7.62mm ball ammo will punch through 3' of oak at 500yds and people do hide behind whatever's available. According to Culver, the tests were rigged in favor of the .223/5.56mm- they wouldn't show what a .223 could penetrate at any distance. Culver said he asked them to and they said "that wouldn't make the .223 look good" or something to that effect. What they effectively did was impress the top brass with volume of fire rather than how the round would perform in combat. One of my second cousins is a former Marine and Vietnam vet- he told me the .223 round is not a jungle fighting round and .308 will do the job. His brother was over there a year or two later and told me the M16, while accurate if the shooter is, is not his first choice for a combat weapon.
 
They didn't have FMJ's during the un-Civil War. They had cast lead with hollow bases and pointy noses. Minie ball was the hollow base bullet created to grab the rifling in a Yankee rifled musket.

Those were still non-expanding rounds. The only expanding rounds used in the war were the so-called "exploding" bullets that saw some use. These featured a very small charge of powder in the nose that forced expansion, hopefully prior to impact. The charge itself was too small to do much damage. IIRC Grant commented on the horrifying damage Confederate explosive rounds inflicted on his men at Vicksburg.
 
Perhaps you missed the thread from a couple years ago where I debunked Culver?

From this thread:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=18397&page=5&pp=25&highlight=Culver
Here are my comments on Mr. Culver's articles. They are a mix of fact and legend for instance:

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The second problem was that ordnance had only enough magazines to issue three (3) per rifle, and they were "twenty rounders". The thirty rounders in those days were only being used by the Special Forces. “ Robert "Strange" McNamara, (The Secretary of Defense), had decreed that the 20 round magazines were more cost effective than the 30 round magazines (this from the guy who was responsible for marketing the Edsel!)



This was in August of 1967 according to the article. The only problem with the statement was that it was 1969 before any 30 round magazines were available for issue. This is according to Ezell and has been verified for me by several vets of that era. Even then, they weren't widely issued. According to Benjamin F. Schemmer's The Raid which is a good history of the Son Tay raid, that even a unit with the priorities that the Task Force selected to take down the Son Tay prison had, had problems aquiring enough 30 round magazines and then, they had no webbing to carry them with. So this part of his story is just barracks talk. The rest of it is a rehash of facts and rumor, nothing is substantiated, footnoted or backed up with any reference.

The section on the effectivness of the 5.56mm round is totally wrong. twist rate and bullet stability..come on Fackler's research was published backin the 80s.

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The "Meat Ax" Effect:
Yes you say, but what about that fantastic "meat ax" effect that the 5.56mm round has on flesh? Won't the 5.56 mm tear a man's arm or head off if it hits him? In a word, no! This is a myth that has been perpetuated since the AR-15/M16's earliest days, and here is as good a place as any to lay this claim to rest! The original 223/5.56mm was derived from the little .222 Remington or at best the .223 Remington Magnum Cartridges. Now the .222 Remington and .222 Remington Magnum originally used a 40 or 45 grain bullet and a 1-14 barrel twist. Ballistic engineers found that 55 grain bullet pushed the stability of the 1-14 twist to the absolute limit in terms of stability. The initial rounds loaded for the 5.56mm were marginally ballistically stable, and tended to tumble if anything got in its way.



It's been proven that the wounding capability associated with the 5.56mm round is due to the bullet breaking up and fragmenting. And for an Ordnance officer to state that the twist rate had anything to do with the bullet yawing (tumbling is the word he uses) shows a misunderstanding of basic physics. Any sptizer bullet will tumble when it strikes something.

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This was apparently especially true of flesh. A 55 grain bullet striking flesh when only stabilized with a 1-14 twist, tumbled with
devastating results, but it had a problem “ it was only marginally accurate. Now it's possible to have a bullet that is known to tumble, but if it won't reliably hit the target at the maximum effective range you are in big trouble.



This marginally accurate rifle shot an average of 1.1 inch groups with a telescopic sight from a benchrest. This was an average of four 10 shot groups fired with two different lots of ammunition. (Aberdeen Proving Ground Test No. DPS 96, November 1960)

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After the initial test results (including some in Southeast Asia) were in, it was apparent that this WAS an effective round (assuming that a tumbling bullet was employed)!



Once again..tumbling bullets...NOT the wounding mechanism of the bullet.

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However, it also became obvious that this rifle wasn't exactly a "tack driver" in terms of accuracy. Air Force cold weather tests in January 1963 showed definite "bullet wobble" around the projectile's rotational axis causing unacceptable accuracy. As any good ordnance folks would do, they tightened the twist to 1-12 and the accuracy improved. The order to change the barrel twist was signed by Robert S. McNamara on the 26th of July 1963. The accuracy immediately improved, but the "magic bullet" quit tumbling! All of a sudden, we had a reasonably accurate round with a bullet that was essentially ineffective in terms of cleaving flesh with the much vaunted "meat ax effect". The round was now reasonably accurate, but much underpowered for its designed maximum effective range of 500 yds.



Once again..see Fackler...It was never tumbling that created the devastating wounds. I have a 1970 training tape for medical personnel on missile wounds. The poor soldiers who had devastating wounds from M193 fired through 1/12 inch barrels should be comforted by the fact that their wound was just an anomoly and not the general thing that happened when hit by M193 out of a 1/12 inch barrel.

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Unfortunately, a sizeable portion of the American Public still believes in the "meat ax" effect of the M16. As a quick anecdotal
story, while I was in the early throes of learning to live with the little black rifle, I went to our Battalion surgeons, and hospital corpsmen with a question.

"Had they seen anything during their treatment of wounds that would indicate that the 5.56mm hit harder than any other round?"

I received a negative answer, but they promised to start investigating more closely. A daily check during periods of intense combat always turned up the same answer. None of the devastating effects described by the M16's most ardent proponents, were being encountered by our medical folks.


It was enough of an issue as late as 1970 that it was pointed out in a training tape for medical personnel. I will be more then happy to make a copy of the tape for Mr. Culver.

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And Now, Slam Fires Too!

In the middle of all our malfunctions, we had another dangerous problem that reared its ugly head. In the middle of a pitched battle in June of 1967, my company had two M16s literally blow up during firing! I was already pulling my hair out, but this seemed to be the final straw. These two stalwart lads had been firing some of the few rifles that were at least marginally functional. In the middle of a string and within a couple of minutes of each other these two rifles literally exploded in the riflemen's hands. Apparently, when the bolt closed, the rifle fired as in a "slam fire" scenario, and the rifles fired out of battery. This explosion blew off the carrying handle and most of the upper receiver. The remaining force blew down through the magazine
well ( bulging the well on both sides), leaving the magazine tube in the well, but blowing all the rounds and the floor plate out the bottom of the rifle. The operators received scratches on the inside of their forearms from the rapidly exiting floorplates, but mercifully sustained no other visible injuries. In one of the two rifles, the bolt (sans carrier) was still dangling from the locking lugs with a blown case in the chamber. The second rifle was missing the case, the bolt and the bolt carrier. Both rifles were still rather comically held together by the hinge pin. If I had disliked the M16 prior to this, my dislike was rapidly ripening into an overt case of hate.


Well..it's physically impossible for an M16 to fire out of battery. The firing pin will NOT reach the primer unless the bolt is all the way into the carrier. The only way the bolt will go all the way into the carrier is if it locks into the lugs in the chamber. The Slam Fire problem was fixed in December of 1963 with the adoption of the firing pin that is currently in use. It also never resulted in a weapon blowing up. It was weapons inadvertantly firing when a cartridge was single loaded into the chamber and the bolt catch released.

My take on the whole story is that it is a hodge podge of war stories, barracks rumors about the procurement system and that it's designed to present the viewpoint that the M16 was only made into a marginally satisfactory service rifle after the Marines redesigned it into the M16A2 but it will never be an M14. Obviously Mr. Culver never liked the M16 or the fact that it replaced the rifle he describes thus;

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I personally feel that the M14 was the finest battle rifle ever adopted by the United States.


He would have done a better job of making his point if he'd have done his research. The facts were available when he wrote this. Perhaps the facts didn't exactly make all the points he wanted to, or perhaps he thought he knew the story...

Ezell's work is footnoted. Anyone can read his sources and draw their own conclusions. Culver doesn't give us the places to go to check his stories out. He makes a lot of good points about the lack of cleaning kits and training. All things that everyone can agree were problems.

Was the fielding of the M16 a confused mess? Yes. Were mistakes made that cost soldiers and Marines their lives? Yes. Did the system eventually work and make the M16 a reliable effective weapon? Yes. Will the facts change anyone who believes that we wopuld be better armed with M14s, AKs, Brown Bess muskets or Hi Pointe Carbines? Probably not....

Now to debunk some more myths. Mustanger 98 said:

Nope. Culver covered that in his articles. Used to be the M-16 was about 7-8lbs, which was lighter than an M14. IIRC, about 1975, they started using a heavier barrel and a couple of other modifications that added the weight back on. Plus all that walnut on a Garand or M14 will fool you about the weight differences between them and the M16.

According to TM 9-1005-249-10 Operator's Manual for Rifle 5.56 mm M16 (1005-00-856-6865) and Rifle 5.56mm M16A1 (1005-00-073-9421) the M16 weighs 6.35 pounds without magazine and sling. The M16A1 weighs 6.55 pounds without magazine and sling.

According to TM 9-1005-223-20 Organizational Maintenance Mannual Including Repair Parts and Special Tools Lists for Rifle 7.62mm M14 W/E (1005-589-1271) and Rifle 7.62mm M14A1 W/E (1005-072-5011) and Bipod Rifle M2 (1005-711-6202) the M14 weighs 10.1 pounds without loaded magazine and the M14A1 weighs 13.12 pounds without loaded magazine. By my math, the M14 is heavier then the M16 as used in 1975.

The M16A2 wasn't adopted by the USMC until 1982 and by the Army until 1985. Even with the addition of the heavier barrel according to TM 9-1005-319-10 it weighs in at 8.79 pounds with a loaded 30 round magazine. That is a full 1.31 pounds less then an unloaded M14.

Perhaps McNamara ordered the wieghts in the manuals changed? :rolleyes:

Jeff
 
It was enough of an issue as late as 1970 that it was pointed out in a training tape for medical personnel. I will be more then happy to make a copy of the tape for Mr. Culver.

What is that supposed to prove, though? Are you claiming that the 5.56 round ALWAYS fails on impact regardless of range, barrel length and bullet design? And you should remember this is BULLET FAILURE we're talking about--the collapse of a bullet's jacket and core on impact. Relying on bullet failure is a poor substitute for proper expanding rounds.
 
Cosmoline,
Until the US renounces the Hague Conventions there will be no properly expanding rounds in military operations conducted by the US armed forces. The wounding potential of the 5.56x45 round has been well documented. I concede that the good wounding potential of M193 and to a lesser extent M855 is a happy circumstance of fate. But that doesn't make it less true.

The fact is, that M193 exhibits better wounding potential then M80. The only Hague Convention legal 7.62x51 round that exhibits a better wounding potential is an old West German round. BTW it had to fail too.

No one is saying that there aren't better expanding bullets out there in all calibers. They aren't relevant to this discussion though. Expanding bullets are prohibited to our troops except in certain anti-terrorist operations.

Jeff
 
You think he would have had that much fight in him after three rounds at point blank from a Garand or M-14? I don't. Even with crappy FMJ bullets.

Unless .30 caliber bullets managed to penetrate the spinal column by sheer luck, the results would have been exactly the same. And it's easier to hit someone with a FA burst of 5.56 than a FA burst of 7.62, methinks (only experience with FA I've ever had was an MP5, so take that with a grain of salt).
 
First of all, the Senate NEVER RATIFIED the Hague Convention. Secondly, Hague flat-out does not apply to the current kind of small arms combat in Iraq and Afghanistan, which generally involves our guys going into towns and shooting IN SELF DEFENSE as they are attacked. In SELF DEFENSE, even the JAG folks agree that soldiers can use ANY type of ammunition. The FMJ restriction was only supposed to apply to formal warfare between signatory nations. Not defensive shootouts between soldiers from a non-signatory nation and terrorists.

In the mean time, debates about which FMJ is the least bad is a waste of time. We should agree to disagree about the age-old debate of 5.56 vs. 7.62 and push to address the fundamental problem--which isn't caliber but bullet construction.
 
Cosmoline,
I'd appreciate a copy of the JAG finding that the our soldiers and Marines may use hollowpoint or softpoint ammunition in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The only such finding that I am aware exists is the one that allows M118 OTM to be used in the M24 and M40 sniper rifles.

It doesn't matter one bit that the Senate never ratified the Hague Convention. What matters is that our leaders choose to abide by it. The man on the line with the rifle in his hand doesn't get to make those decisions.

Jeff
 
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