After nearly 40 years Cooper finally lost me.

[Too Many Choices!?]

I say give me 55 gr of .223

and back it up with the S.A.W. gunner/s firing the linked 62 gr penetrator ammo, best of both worlds . Coop is still getting old ...

 

[444]

444, are you calling me an internet commando?

 

[atblis]

Hmmm

I think the preference noted above for the grease gun and m1 carbine had more to do with the fact that they actually worked (not the cartridge they fired).

The military is constantly looking for new stuff (things to spend money on), and trying to hang on tooth and nail to their old stuff. It's conflicted, and sometimes the man in the field gets screwed. This happens when you have business interests running things, and consumer free will does not exist.

The training thing I think has more to do with accountants (not the people doing the training). 5.56 is cheaper to make, easier to train with (in theory less time and ammo required = less $$$).

We've more or less covered both extremes, and now we are headed back towards the middle (where the truth most likely lies). I am all for the 6.5 or 6.8. Though I must admit, extremes can be very fun.

 

[Correia]

444, man, that is cold...

 

[Dienekes]

I started reading Jeff Cooper over 45 years ago because he wrote well and made a lot of sense most of the time. I don't always have the same interests and don't always agree with him--but if you're going to contest the ground you had better have your homework done.

I first got acquainted with the M-16 courtesy of Uncle when it was a brand new notion. Compared to the M2 carbine I had up till then it was a real improvement, but I always felt that it was not quite up to the job. My last real dealing with it was a CAR-15 which had its niche as an evil-looking raid gun but had distinct limitations as a rifle.

I have humped the FAL, M1 Garand, M14 and M1A and always felt that the .30 cal was going to take better care of me whatever the circumstances.

Fell into a few bucks recently and was mildly tempted to replace the CAR in a fit of nostalgia--but in truth the SKS behind the seat of the pickup is probably just about as good for a 200 yard carbine--and a lot cheaper to own and operate.

Just sprung for a Smith Enterprises setup for the M1A so that probably qualifies as a vote of confidence.

Thank God we get to discuss, choose, and use our weapons of choice. There are lots of places where this exchange would not even occur.

 

[Rob1035]

Thank God we get to discuss, choose, and use our weapons of choice. There are lots of places where this exchange would not even occur.

That is one of the better quotes I've seen in awhile, on any board. Bravo

 

[Sam]

Speaking of weapons that work well, anyone notice all the empties behind that Browning in pcf's post on page1? Not just brass but cans too.
You ain't gonna do that with no stinking M60

Sam

 

[No_Brakes23]

it seems to be working; at least for the Marines.

Damn right!

 

[mustanger98]

Hmm, WONDER why 223 AR's win all the matches,

(including those held at 600 yds) if the 308 is so 'superior"? In fact, the 223 does aok at 1000 yds these days.

Okay, this part sounds like Sybil. That you Sybil? Where'd you park your assault wheelbarrow?

 

[Risasi]

You know I used to wade into these arguments. But over time I realized some things;

A. We can all choose our caliber, (unless we're armed forces). So none of this should be taken too seriously.

B. There is always at least one advantage or disadvantage to whatever caliber is in question. And sometimes a certain characteristic to a bullet is both. (i.e. poor penetration and fragmentation of the 5.56 is very handy in urban areas)

C. Most all arguments about the weakness of certain rounds evaporate if you hit what you're aiming. Aim small, miss small. Practice, practice, practice.

D. Grow to have confidence in your weapon of choice, and a man has to know his limitations.

Personally I own multiple calibers, on multiple weapons platforms. And I have familiarized myself with as many guns as I can. AR vs. AK? 5.56 vs. 7.62? Me I don't care any more. I just geeked out on as much data as I could and I don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[El Rojo]

Add one more case of hearing a reliable Vietnam combat vet shooting a "enemy soldier" (not really the term he said) with his M60 several times, hearing the rounds slap into him, and the "enemy soldier" kept on running. I don't think it matters what you use, sometimes living creatures just want to keep living. Heck I shot a deer two weeks ago with my .30-06 right in the vitals. He ran down the hill, across the road, and back up the other hill about 20 yards. I didn't figure the .30-06 was ineffective. I actually figured it was more effective because that put the deer closer to the road than where I originally shot him!!!

The point is, sometimes life wants to continue. Now eventually biology catches up and when your heart and lungs are mush and the adrenaline wears off, life loses the battle. It might not happen right away, but it happens. Carry a 16 inch gun or a tactical nuke if you want one stop shots all the time. Good luck.

 

[Byron]

I was infantry In Nam (4th Inf Div) 68-69.The 16's we had worked well as changes had been made to the powder etc. One hit to an NVA was devistating and usually lethal. I never had an NVA get back up. The round we carried was the M193.The rifle and cartridge served me well. Byron

 

[justashooter]

read Blackhawk Down again. participants in this conflict indicated a lot of "skinnys" took multiples from M4. the M4 does not acheive velocity high enough to overstabilize and cause yaw in soft tissue less than 14".

twist is also a factor, as well as the specific cartridge designation/bullet design. a lot of the surp 556 you see available was rotated out in favour of a bullet design that gave faster yaw.

 

[Luchtaine]

There was a vietnam vet at the range the other day he qualified on the M14 and said he loved the rifle he didn't much care for M16. I let him have a go with my M1a especially since he helped me figure out how I was grouping.

Anyways he was out there with a .50 cal I think he is a member of the bigger is better crowd maybe

 

[natedog]

If the 5.56 is so hot, who all the interest in the 6.8mm? Why bring the M-14s back for designated marksmen? I understand we are sending some federal cops over to the war zones, and because the enemy isn't a uniformed soldier of a nation state, we can use expanding ammo. Saw a thing from a cop with an M-4 with JHP ammo that seemed to work fine, but he said the military using ball were having problems.

The (extremely limited) military interest in 6.8mm stems from a request from one or two special forces type units who wanted greater range out of their issue rifles, because they often operate without the luxury of air support/artillery/etc.

 

[Burt Blade]

This whole tiny bullet craze is silly. Everyone knows that if you want to put a foe down, you use a _real_ rifle, the .45-70. Those .30-06 kiddy rifles are a passing fad. So is that "smokeless" stuff.

 

[mustanger98]

This whole tiny bullet craze is silly. Everyone knows that if you want to put a foe down, you use a _real_ rifle, the .45-70. Those .30-06 kiddy rifles are a passing fad. So is that "smokeless" stuff.

BWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

 

[Kurt]

Cooper was seldom a fan of the small stuff, even with the shooting games.

In the current direction of this thread, I see a whole bunch of folk with other ideas.

Alternately, I get two general thrusts from them; either they are trying way too hard to legitimize their choice with all manner of "feel good" verse and/or just sorta whistling past the graveyard while they seem to know (deep down) that there are better choices available.

No drama, but one day any of our chosen caliber/platform choices could be put into a competitive life and death challenge, and I hope we all would do well. But the BG's (inclusive) usually lack proper dedication in these areas, so they gravitate towards the smaller pistol and rifle calibers because those are the ones that are more pleasing to their senses and commensurate to their abilities.

Common sense and a bit of ballistic smarts will go a long, long way for the more serious among us to be where we should.

 

[mcmjr]

We should give all our troops steyr scouts.

 

[CaesarI]

Kinda late?

Cooper's been complaining about the 5.56 for quite some time now. Why quit on'em now?

As for the 5.56... bullet design is just more important than muzzle energy and caliber. The US Military versions of the 5.56 all fragment and actually do more damage to a human target (within their fragmentation range) than the old 7.62mm ball. In this sense, Cooper is very mistaken in supporting the 7.62. On the other hand, Cooper also has experience hunting, and in this field, where expanding rounds are the norm, the 7.62 is without a doubt superior to the 5.56.

Given equal bullet design, the 7.62 is a superior cartridge in terms of making a hostile human target stop immediately.

Despite all this, placement is more important. Cooper (from what I've gathered in his writings) would likely favor marksmen with 5.56's than poorly trained shooters with 7.62's. If you interpret differently, feel free to share.

The better compromise, in terms of rounds carried, and power appears to the the 6.8 SPC, but who knows if it will ever be adopted.

-Morgan

 

[Aguila Blanca]

As for the 5.56... bullet design is just more important than muzzle energy and caliber. The US Military versions of the 5.56 all fragment and actually do more damage to a human target (within their fragmentation range) than the old 7.62mm ball. In this sense, Cooper is very mistaken in supporting the 7.62.

You are correct to a point -- the military rounds (M193 and M855) fragment if they have sufficient velocity to tumble on impact. The Ammo Oracle pegs the magic number as 2700 fps for this to occur, and with a standard 20" barrel even the M855 can generate that velocity out to a couple or thre hundred meters.

However, put the same ammo in an M4 with only a 14-1/2" barrel and the maximum range that will carry that velocuty drops to less than 100 meters -- more like 75 to 90 meters IIRC.

 

[Mulliga]

Common sense and a bit of ballistic smarts will go a long, long way for the more serious among us to be where we should.

 

[444]

"We should give all our troops steyr scouts."

Since you are giving them out, give one to me.
I would love to have one.

 

[The Tourist]

Perhaps it's not the topic, but the man.

I'm 55, and I'm coming to terms with the fact that while I'm healthy (I go to the gym everyday) and still enjoy riding my Harley, to most of the world I'm an older gentleman. And I've always seen odd stuff done in life by guys I refer to as "brain donors."

But I've also grown impatient with mistakes and foolishness that I've seen done over and over again by different segments of society, each thinking they are breaking new ground. I mean, sheez Louise, whether you call it hard rock, metal, gangsta rap, or grunge it's still some guy screaming angst into a microphone despite that his only plight has been living with his parents. Man, I could run my home for a year on all the power his amphifiers waste.

But unlike the common citizen, the older guy is just sick of keeping quiet. He's endured threats, broken bones, disease, failed relationships, financial woes and piss-poor customer service. You cannot scare him, but then, you cannot fool him, either.

I've handloaded the .223 for some 30 years. I've used FMJ, Nosler Ballistic tips, commercial loads and every type of gunpowder you can shake, meter, drop or rub into your belly button. And sometimes with a custom crafted flat-top Colt AR-15, I am drop-dead astounded by its accuracy.

But let's cut the crap about "wounds to the thorax." If you are hit with a .22LR or a 25 ACP you feel pain, you bleed and you'll probably need life saving surgery before you recover--after weeks of discomfort and therapy--if you survive.

You're driving hot cupro-nickel wrapped lead into another human being. What the hell did you think was going to happen?

 

[Cosmoline]

Cooper is right. With FMJ ammunition from carbines in particular the vaunted explosive impact of the 5.56 is hit or miss--mostly miss. Relying on complete bullet failure is a shameful excuse for a proper full power rifle round with proper bullets. And it costs lives and puts many others at risk.

"Prosser shot the man at least four times with his M4 rifle. But the American M4 rifles are weak - after Prosser landed three nearly point blank shots in the man's abdomen, splattering a testicle with a fourth, the man just staggered back, regrouped and tried to shoot Prosser."

http://www.michaelyon.blogspot.com/?BMIDS=17063176-43e6075b-76337

The US Military versions of the 5.56 all fragment and actually do more damage to a human target

WRONG. NONE of the military's 5.56 are frag rounds. That is, none of them are designed to self-destruct on impact. Out of a full size rifle the bullets on some of the ball rounds will tend to fail at close range, but that's not the same as a true fragmenting or expanding round. Not by a longshot.

More important than any particular cartridge, we should once and for all declare that we no longer adhere to the absolutely absurd, outmoded and dangerous restrictions of the Hague Convention on essentially any kind of bullet designed after 1900. There's a century of bullet advances we DENY to our guys on the front line out of some truly bizarre allegiance to a bunch of Eurocrat nutjobs who thought dum dum bullets unsportsmanlike but had no problem with howitzers the size of a house, poison gas or mass charges into Maxims.