After the fact bill of sale - What would you do?

[Spats McGee]

Actually, there was one additional factor in the OP that would give me pause

I bought a nice new to me rifle today from a private party - just the way I like it. About 10 minutes later I was at a store on my way home when he called and said he forgot to do the bill of sale, which had not been brought up by either of us previously. He asked for my last name and DL#. Now, as far as I'm concerned, I could have told him to pound sand as this was not part of the agreement. However, I am nice and did not tell him to pound sand.

Your thoughts?

Now, if I were to buy a firearm, and the other party wanted a bill of sale, that might be OK. Buying them new or from a dealer, obviously, there has to be a 4473. Buying them from a private party, though, that's different. In my state, only two things must happen for a legal private party sale:
1) Buyer pays for gun;
2) Seller hands over gun.

If the seller told me on the front end that he wanted a bill of sale, I'm not jumping up and down excited about it, but he's got the gun. If I really, really want that gun, then a BoS is part of the deal. It really needed to be part of the front-end discussions, though. I wouldn't be all too excited if I had to drive halfway across town (or further) expecting to buy a gun only to have the seller say, "Oh, yeah, I need a BoS. I thought you knew that."

I wouldn't give out my DL#, though. The seller can see my DL or my CHCL on site to verify my residence. There's no reason for the seller to take down my DL#, though. That's identity theft waiting to happen.

 

[Blackbeard]

Having sued A LOT of people in small claims court, I can say that the $250 suit you suggest would go nowhere. The dishonest seller would have zero proof that the price was initially $500 but the victimized buyer might have some email correspondence to refute the fictitious claim. Even if he did not, mere word against word won't amount in anything. The suit filer will have spent money to bring the matter to court, but the defendant will not have.

Ok, suppose he claims it was a loan and he wants his gun back. It'll still end up in court.

BTW, the seller doesn't have to be dishonest for this to come up. It's entirely possible for buyer & seller to have differing ideas on what the deal is. Maybe the seller has emails where half down and half a week later were discussed. Maybe one thinks that's the final deal and the other thinks something else.

The point is, the BOS protects the buyer by being a written record of the contract between two parties.

 

[Blackbeard]

Scenario #2:

Your anti-gun state bans the type of weapon you bought, subject to grandfathering. How do you prove when you acquired it without the bill of sale? Now, you clever gunners might say that the burden is on the state to prove you didn't own it before the cutoff date. You can explain that to the sheriff who seized it at a traffic stop and won't release it without some proof.

 

[Spats McGee]

I don't live in an anti-gun state, but I can assure you that if a sherriff refuses to release my property, demanding proof under those circumstances, will become intimately familiar with 42 U.S.C. 1983 and the nature of civil rights proceedings.

 

[tnelson31]

I think the fact more important than the nature of the goods purchased, is the fact that the sale is completed!

The buyer is under no obligation, social or otherwise, to continue the transaction.

 

[dogtown tom]

Blackbeard

Quote:
"Hi Joe, here's the cash"
"Thanks, Bob, here's the gun"
"Have a nice day"
"You too"

JOE: Hey Bob, you never paid me for that gun.
BOB: Yes I did, don't you remember?
JOE: No, the price was $500 and you only gave me half up front.
BOB: That wasn't the deal.
JOE: Yes it was. Fork over $250 or I'll sue.
BOB: Pound sand.
JOE: I'll see you in court.

Your "scenario" seems to be between friends.....not complete strangers like 99% of FTF transactions. Any FTF transaction that doesn't have the buyer paying for the gun in full AND LEAVING WITH THE GUN is the sellers fault.

JOE: Hey Bob, I'm a complete idiot....I handed you a gun without getting paid in full first.
BOB: Yes, you are an idiot.

 

[N003k]

"Hi Joe, here's the cash"
"Thanks, Bob, here's the gun"
"Have a nice day"
"You too"

JOE: Hey Bob, you never paid me for that gun.
BOB: Yes I did, don't you remember?
JOE: No, the price was $500 and you only gave me half up front.
BOB: That wasn't the deal.
JOE: Yes it was. Fork over $250 or I'll sue.
BOB: Pound sand.
JOE: I'll see you in court.

JOE: Judge, Bob over there never paid me half the money for that gun, he only gave me $250 up front when the price was $500.

JUDGE: Mr. Joe, why would you give him possession of the property prior to receiving payment for it and allow him to leave with it?

JOE: Uhhh...

JUDGE: Dismissed.




Yea, unless Joe tries to claim it was stolen, in which case email correspondence for a meeting and a lack of a call to the police at the time of the transfer will make really hard to prove...the receipt wont help there.


If the guy REALLY wants a receipt the most I'd be willing to do with a stranger is a paper with a description of the gun (Make, Model, Serial No, and anything that came with it that's not a standard part, such as a scope) and the price, the date, and MAYBE both of our signatures. No way I'd give a stranger my DL or CCL number, nor my complete address etc.

If it's not something that'd be on the receipt if I went in to buy something from my local Walmart, why would I put it on a receipt/bill of sale with a stranger?

 

[zxcvbob]

I don't live in an anti-gun state, but I can assure you that if a sherriff refuses to release my property, demanding proof under those circumstances, will become intimately familiar with 42 U.S.C. 1983 and the nature of civil rights proceedings.

Because that works so well in Louisiana? (too many stories of deputies seizing guns and/or cash and refusing to return them until given proof of ownership for them to all be false) Also how much does it cost to bring a civil rights suit? It sounds good in theory.

I used to live in East Texas. You live in Arkansas; so you know what I'm talking about.

 

[Elkins45]

CoRoMo, Dogtown Tom and others have it right. This is a no brainer..But that beat just goes on The.ego don't you know? But I understand. Giving up ground is hard to do.

The winning side of an argument usually doesn't have to resort to ad hominem jabs, even assuming there is a winning side. This thread is purely a collection of opinions in response to a "what would you do?" question. There is no one right answer.

 

[Spats McGee]

I don't live in an anti-gun state, but I can assure you that if a sherriff refuses to release my property, demanding proof under those circumstances, will become intimately familiar with 42 U.S.C. 1983 and the nature of civil rights proceedings.

Because that works so well in Louisiana? (too many stories of deputies seizing guns and/or cash and refusing to return them until given proof of ownership for them to all be false) Also how much does it cost to bring a civil rights suit? It sounds good in theory.

Oh, I'm sure that it's happened, and in more states than just Louisiana.

In my district (the Eastern District of Arkansas), the filing fee is around $400 (if I remember right, and unless you get IFP status), and then you'd have to pay for things like court reporters, copying costs, and the like.

The good news for a prevailing party is that the other side has to pay all of your attorneys' fees and costs (42 USC 1988, if I recall correctly)

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, guess everyone's had their say.