flylo
Member
If I sell a gun that's in my name we go thru an FFL tranfer & split the $20 fee. I sleep very well.
After the fact bill of sale - What would you do?
- Thread starter Jacob L Freeman
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351 WINCHESTER
Member
Nothing wrong with a bill of sale. It protects both the buyer and seller unless one or both parties has something to hide.
dogtown tom
Member
Please provide an example of this "protection".
flylo
Member
If a buyer won't run it thru a FFL check I didn't want him to to have a firearm where the paper trail ends with me. Even if he's honest who knows who he'll sell it to. IMHO
Ed Ames
Member
Flylo...i'm glad that something other than Ambien is giving you peaceful sleep. However, what you are doing is not morally superior to what others do, is not germane to this thread, and is not really in keeping with the spirit of free men exercising rights. It sounds like you are living in fear of your government, and doing what you think will keep you safe because of that fear. In other words, you are the victim of a bully.
Bullies do not stop because you do what they want. Your capitulation drives them to seek more power.
Bullies do not stop because you do what they want. Your capitulation drives them to seek more power.
bigfatdave
Member
The Bill Of Sale is silly
If po-po is knocking on your door because all their investigation has to go on is what used to be your gun, they have nothing.
Nobody is getting arrested and locked up for crimes their old guns were used in, because they're not connected to the actual crime in any meaningful way. Except on NCSI Bangor or whatever silly cop show this myth comes from.
If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd politely decline, and not allow any further nonsense. (possible exception for a C&R FFL holder, if they hadn't annoyed or insulted me)
If po-po is knocking on your door because all their investigation has to go on is what used to be your gun, they have nothing.
Nobody is getting arrested and locked up for crimes their old guns were used in, because they're not connected to the actual crime in any meaningful way. Except on NCSI Bangor or whatever silly cop show this myth comes from.
If I were in the OP's shoes, I'd politely decline, and not allow any further nonsense. (possible exception for a C&R FFL holder, if they hadn't annoyed or insulted me)
zxcvbob
Member
I would give him my full name, city, and let him *look* at my carry permit or DL, but not write down the number. There's no harm in a bill of sale, and it might come in handy someday if I need to file an insurance claim.
Yeah, it should have been negotiated before the sale. I'm not gonna be a jerk about it.
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OleReb
Member
I wouldn't do it,i never do any paperwork when doing a FTF sale and never will. I check thier DL and thier CCW and if those match thats it for me,i will let the other party do the same with mine but will not allow them to write any info down. I know alot of people like to have everything written down but i'm not giving info to anyone that i dont know.
flylo
Member
Ed, I'm not arguing or telling anyone what to do, only what I do. If I sell to someone & they they kill a friend, neighbor, or anyone innocent I'd have a hard time with that. These days you never know who's a crackhead, methhead or criminal. Those types don't like to be "registered" & it will usually kill the sale. I don't do out of fear but out of responsibility. That's why the good sleep. Thanks!
Ed Ames
Member
What a sad view to have of your fellow citizens. So mistrustful, so out of touch with reality. Very few people are criminals of the sort you seem to think are most likely to want to exercise their legal right to buy a firearm from another citizen in the legal and proper way.
Smells of fear to me.
Smells of fear to me.
flylo
Member
Well Ed I guess your smellers broke, better get that looked at, might be serious! LOL
Diamondback6
Member
As a buyer, I like a BOS just in case of a Katrina Grab where it's "if you can't prove you own it you don't," and other scenarios.
The form I use basically records our CPL numbers and says "Buyer certifies under penalty of perjury he is not a Prohibited Person, seller certifies under penalty of perjury he is the lawful owner of said weapon, _(description)_ c/n _(serial)_, and is transferring it to buyer for the price of $___. Buyer signature, CPL # and date. Seller signature, CPL # and date." That simple, and we each walk away with a copy.
The form I use basically records our CPL numbers and says "Buyer certifies under penalty of perjury he is not a Prohibited Person, seller certifies under penalty of perjury he is the lawful owner of said weapon, _(description)_ c/n _(serial)_, and is transferring it to buyer for the price of $___. Buyer signature, CPL # and date. Seller signature, CPL # and date." That simple, and we each walk away with a copy.
When I sell a gun, I do a bill of sale. It contains my name, buyer's name. Make, model and serial number of the gun. I include the following disclaimer: " I the purchaser am a resident of the State of ********, am over the age of 20, and am legally able to own a firearm" if the buyer refuses to sign, no sale.
bigfatdave
Member
If you sell a car and the buyer plows through a bunch of kids walking to the bus, are you responsible?
If you sell an axe and the buyer hacks up a bunch of nuns are you responsible?
How about ammo?
Holsters?
Gun maintenance tools?
Ed Ames
Member
How about if you don't sell them a gun and they are killed, unable to defend themselves? Are You responsible for that too?
And while we are on the subject, what makes you think a background check would stop most would-be friend/neighbor/anyone innocent killers? The sad truth is that the most of those are one-time "crime of passion"/mental aberration crimes, and background checks cannot prevent one-time occurrences.
So you are doing something that is not legally required, is not effective, and can cause the sorts of negative outcomes you claim trouble your sleep...for speculative reasons. In other words, fear of what MIGHT happen is stopping you from legal activities.
And while we are on the subject, what makes you think a background check would stop most would-be friend/neighbor/anyone innocent killers? The sad truth is that the most of those are one-time "crime of passion"/mental aberration crimes, and background checks cannot prevent one-time occurrences.
So you are doing something that is not legally required, is not effective, and can cause the sorts of negative outcomes you claim trouble your sleep...for speculative reasons. In other words, fear of what MIGHT happen is stopping you from legal activities.
flylo
Member
Ed, I never said I wouldn't sell my neibors of friends guns, I was talking strangers that might be drug heads & possible shoot or rob someone I know. In Michigan you have to transfer handguns this way so I do it with long guns to folks I don't know either. I just explained what I do nothing more. Case closed. Quit beating a dead horse & blubbering about fear & reading things that arent there & adding things I didn't say & telling me how I think. If you keep posting on this your talking to yourself.
Don't worry about how I do it & I won't worry about what you do.
Some people have to be right, never listen or learn or consider other opinions. Enjoy your day!
Don't worry about how I do it & I won't worry about what you do. Some people have to be right, never listen or learn or consider other opinions. Enjoy your day!
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Ed Ames
Member
Flylo...
What you are doing is not effective, not legally required, not beneficial to society as a whole, and is actively harmful to the exercise of our civil rights. It desensitizes people to a violation of their rights and that is exactly what enables further anti-RKBA legislation. Yet you are not only willing to pay for the privilege to the tune of $20 (and don't fool yourself, the $10 going to an FFL instead of you is part to the purchase price as far as a buyer is concerned), but to admit it on a public forum! A pro-RKBA forum even!
It's like if you were to go to a forum dedicated to privacy rights and say that whenever you exchange emails with someone you don't know you send their name to the FBI just in case. At the very least it isn't relevant except as a bad example, but it also raises serious questions about your motivation. What would drive you to do such a thing?
The only things you have mentioned are "drug heads" and "criminals" ... Bogeymen, to put a name to the category. You are doing something Wrong because you ____ these things. What words fit that blank? Give me a reasonable alternative to the obvious word.
What you are doing is not effective, not legally required, not beneficial to society as a whole, and is actively harmful to the exercise of our civil rights. It desensitizes people to a violation of their rights and that is exactly what enables further anti-RKBA legislation. Yet you are not only willing to pay for the privilege to the tune of $20 (and don't fool yourself, the $10 going to an FFL instead of you is part to the purchase price as far as a buyer is concerned), but to admit it on a public forum! A pro-RKBA forum even!
It's like if you were to go to a forum dedicated to privacy rights and say that whenever you exchange emails with someone you don't know you send their name to the FBI just in case. At the very least it isn't relevant except as a bad example, but it also raises serious questions about your motivation. What would drive you to do such a thing?
The only things you have mentioned are "drug heads" and "criminals" ... Bogeymen, to put a name to the category. You are doing something Wrong because you ____ these things. What words fit that blank? Give me a reasonable alternative to the obvious word.
Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
- Messages
- 2,025
Bills of Sale are an interesting subject. I can see both sides of the coin.
Short war story:
Bought a 9mm from an individual who advertised it on Armslist. Talked on the phone, seemed OK, met, showed him my CCW, bought the pistol, and drove away. He was a nice young guy, no issues or red flags.
One year later he calls me and leaves a message that I need to call him on a matter of grave importance. So I call back.
Seems he's been investigated by the BATFE, as another handgun he sold the same way was recovered after a crime, and he was being asked some hard questions about the number and frequency of his private sales. More on "private sales" below.
After a gun he sold was used in a serious crime, a trace was done: Manufacturer to Distributor, then to FFL, then to their bound book, and then to him. "Knock-Knock" on his door, wife says "Two BATFE agents are here honey, can you come out and talk to them?" The BATFE had a list of guns he had bought from the same FFL (they had looked thru the bound book), asked about dispositions, and most had been sold. They asked him if he had gotten any bills of sale from any of his purchasers, and he had said no. That caused some additional hard questions from the BATFE.
He had my phone number still in the memory of his old cellphone, so he called me. His request to me was for me to give him a bill of sale for the year-past transaction, to show the BATFE that I was not a prohibited person. Naturally I declined, but I did offer to call the BATFE Investigator and have a conversation. He then sent me the number of the Investigator who had interviewed him.
I called the Investigator, and we had an interesting and very cordial conversation. I told her what had occured, and that I was a CCW holder, etc., and that I had displayed my CCW at time of sale, etc. I offered to submit the serial number of the handgun and even to let her examine it if she desired. She declined, told me that there was no reason to think the handgun was stolen, that she already knew the serial number, and thanked me for my assistance. Basically the only reason I called was to stand up for the guy, as in my own dealing with him he had done nothing wrong at all, and had asked to see my CCW, etc.
It turned out as we spoke that the nice young guy was playing a "little" close to the vest with his hobby. See, it seems he worked behind the counter at a LGS (unknown to me), and was buying handguns "privately" as they became available either as guns in inventory, or by people walking in and selling. He then was reselling them as "private sales". My M9 was one of those that he had legally bought from the FFL he worked for, which is why BATFE knew the number of it. The BATFE Investigator told me that he had a perfect right to do private sales, but that the frequency and other facts made it a grey area, and with one handgun recovered after a crime they were "bemused" and "concerned" that he might not be checking ID's at time of sale or being "proactive" to the possibility that he was selling to prohibited persons. Their concern was real: The crime-gun had been sold to a convicted felon, who then shot someone with it. The seller had no way of knowing that the buyer was a bad guy, but at the same time he could not say exactly to whom he had sold it and thus he was being... "queried". That caused..... "concern and heartache". The bottom line is that he had done nothing wrong, as he could not have known that the buyer was a criminal. He was clean... but he was grey. Being grey is not good. If he had a handful of Bills of Sale the BATFE would have smiled, said "good day" and left. So who was left hurt?
So, instead of "have a nice day", he's being "possibly" investigated further for "possibly" engaging in dealing without a licence, and "might" have additional hassles ahead. I sort of doubt it, after talking to the BATFE, as they were pretty circumspect about the fact that he had a right to sell what he owned, but still.... don't be grey.
Lesson learned: Get a bill of sale when you sell. If a buyer refuses to offer ID, then refuse to sell. How else can you know he's from your own state? You need to see ID... it's a small second step to get the name on a bill of sale. The buyer can refuse, which is fine. Refuse the sale for your own good.
And you know what? Having a copy as the buyer is a nice way of being able to point over my shoulder if something I end up with was stolen at some time and then resold to me. "Not me, dude... talk to this guy... and have a nice day, Officer.... ".
Willie
.
Short war story:
Bought a 9mm from an individual who advertised it on Armslist. Talked on the phone, seemed OK, met, showed him my CCW, bought the pistol, and drove away. He was a nice young guy, no issues or red flags.
One year later he calls me and leaves a message that I need to call him on a matter of grave importance. So I call back.
Seems he's been investigated by the BATFE, as another handgun he sold the same way was recovered after a crime, and he was being asked some hard questions about the number and frequency of his private sales. More on "private sales" below.
After a gun he sold was used in a serious crime, a trace was done: Manufacturer to Distributor, then to FFL, then to their bound book, and then to him. "Knock-Knock" on his door, wife says "Two BATFE agents are here honey, can you come out and talk to them?" The BATFE had a list of guns he had bought from the same FFL (they had looked thru the bound book), asked about dispositions, and most had been sold. They asked him if he had gotten any bills of sale from any of his purchasers, and he had said no. That caused some additional hard questions from the BATFE.
He had my phone number still in the memory of his old cellphone, so he called me. His request to me was for me to give him a bill of sale for the year-past transaction, to show the BATFE that I was not a prohibited person. Naturally I declined, but I did offer to call the BATFE Investigator and have a conversation. He then sent me the number of the Investigator who had interviewed him.
I called the Investigator, and we had an interesting and very cordial conversation. I told her what had occured, and that I was a CCW holder, etc., and that I had displayed my CCW at time of sale, etc. I offered to submit the serial number of the handgun and even to let her examine it if she desired. She declined, told me that there was no reason to think the handgun was stolen, that she already knew the serial number, and thanked me for my assistance. Basically the only reason I called was to stand up for the guy, as in my own dealing with him he had done nothing wrong at all, and had asked to see my CCW, etc.
It turned out as we spoke that the nice young guy was playing a "little" close to the vest with his hobby. See, it seems he worked behind the counter at a LGS (unknown to me), and was buying handguns "privately" as they became available either as guns in inventory, or by people walking in and selling. He then was reselling them as "private sales". My M9 was one of those that he had legally bought from the FFL he worked for, which is why BATFE knew the number of it. The BATFE Investigator told me that he had a perfect right to do private sales, but that the frequency and other facts made it a grey area, and with one handgun recovered after a crime they were "bemused" and "concerned" that he might not be checking ID's at time of sale or being "proactive" to the possibility that he was selling to prohibited persons. Their concern was real: The crime-gun had been sold to a convicted felon, who then shot someone with it. The seller had no way of knowing that the buyer was a bad guy, but at the same time he could not say exactly to whom he had sold it and thus he was being... "queried". That caused..... "concern and heartache". The bottom line is that he had done nothing wrong, as he could not have known that the buyer was a criminal. He was clean... but he was grey. Being grey is not good. If he had a handful of Bills of Sale the BATFE would have smiled, said "good day" and left. So who was left hurt?
So, instead of "have a nice day", he's being "possibly" investigated further for "possibly" engaging in dealing without a licence, and "might" have additional hassles ahead. I sort of doubt it, after talking to the BATFE, as they were pretty circumspect about the fact that he had a right to sell what he owned, but still.... don't be grey.
Lesson learned: Get a bill of sale when you sell. If a buyer refuses to offer ID, then refuse to sell. How else can you know he's from your own state? You need to see ID... it's a small second step to get the name on a bill of sale. The buyer can refuse, which is fine. Refuse the sale for your own good.
And you know what? Having a copy as the buyer is a nice way of being able to point over my shoulder if something I end up with was stolen at some time and then resold to me. "Not me, dude... talk to this guy... and have a nice day, Officer.... ".
Willie
.
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Trunk Monkey
member
I think this is one of those topics that people just split into two camps on and neither side is going to convince the other to change.
I get a bill of sale to (hopefully) protect me from any litigation and that’s the only reason I get one. I don’t want you to take the gun I sold you, abuse it, have it malfunction or blow up on you and have you come back and try to sue me over it.
I don’t think showing a cop a bill of sale that I could have printed out yesterday is going to do me any good if the police show up asking about a gun I sold. I suppose it might help me if the police had reason to check the serial number of a gun I bought and it came up hot but even then I’m not sure. In either case I’m not participating in any police investigation of any crime with out competent legal counsel.
Also, I doubt very seriously that a charge of “Perjury” because of what I put on a home made bill of sale would hold up in any court in the country.
IMO if you are that paranoid (Yup, I went there) over selling a gun to a stranger then you should either sell it on consignment at your LGS or have an FFL do an official transfer for you.
I get a bill of sale to (hopefully) protect me from any litigation and that’s the only reason I get one. I don’t want you to take the gun I sold you, abuse it, have it malfunction or blow up on you and have you come back and try to sue me over it.
I don’t think showing a cop a bill of sale that I could have printed out yesterday is going to do me any good if the police show up asking about a gun I sold. I suppose it might help me if the police had reason to check the serial number of a gun I bought and it came up hot but even then I’m not sure. In either case I’m not participating in any police investigation of any crime with out competent legal counsel.
Also, I doubt very seriously that a charge of “Perjury” because of what I put on a home made bill of sale would hold up in any court in the country.
IMO if you are that paranoid (Yup, I went there) over selling a gun to a stranger then you should either sell it on consignment at your LGS or have an FFL do an official transfer for you.
flylo
Member
Last post on this. I'm not paranoid but I'm not selling to a felen, drughead, etc. If they are afraid to do a transfer I don't want to sell to them anyway. Don't read, imagine, have a conspiracy theary or anything else into this as it's simply not true. Even farm auctions now you have to do a 4473. Case closed!
PS I buy guns to keep to can't even remember when I sold one & should have kept my opinion to myself but am new & thought this was an open forum & really don't think I'm the paranoid one here.LOL!
PS I buy guns to keep to can't even remember when I sold one & should have kept my opinion to myself but am new & thought this was an open forum & really don't think I'm the paranoid one here.LOL!
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Willie Sutton
Member
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2013
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- 2,025
Funny, that it's easy to have one foot in both camps, feel free to call it "having your cake and eating it too" but it's true all the same:
I prefer to buy without one (but I do not object if asked to sign one).
I always sell with one.
I always ask to see a CCW as ID, which has become the local standard ID for face to face sales. Anyone seriously into the shooting sports here has one, and it just makes it easy to not worry about who you sold it to.
Willie
.
I prefer to buy without one (but I do not object if asked to sign one).
I always sell with one.
I always ask to see a CCW as ID, which has become the local standard ID for face to face sales. Anyone seriously into the shooting sports here has one, and it just makes it easy to not worry about who you sold it to.
Willie
.
Chris-bob
Member
No BOS from me or for me. And I lose no sleep over it ever. I don't even check CCL because they aren't required. I simply ask if they can legally possess a firearm, if I am satisfied with their answer, I sell it to them. If I don't like their answer, no sale. I rely wholly on first impressions followed with gut instinct. Just like they did prior to '68.
Ed Ames
Member
That part actually isn't true, at least around here.
When Texas clarified that "Traveling" means getting in your car and going anywhere, a lot of people either dripped their CHL or decided not to get one because CHLs are held to higher standards (duty to inform) and they figure a car gun is good enough. I took a CHL course right around the time that law changed and the instructor (who also went into a rant about how CHLs are a rights infringement and everyone should have what was then called Vermont Carry) suggested that all of the students think about whether they really wanted to file the forms.
JVaughn
Member
No wy, I always refuse the DL routine. I will show my CCW permit briefly sometimes if I have to "prove" I am a good guy, but not long enough o allow any recording.
bikemutt
Member
There is no way I would agree to a paperwork do-over. State your terms up front as a seller, stick to it.
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