Denied sale after background check cleared.

[holloway199]

Denied my sale due to a walmart associate feeling uncomfortable.
Salem, Ohio store denied me a firearm sale after my back ground check cleared. I had my 2 sons ages 16 and 18 with me to purchase a firearm.My sons looked at it and handed it back to the sales associate. I told him it was the one I wanted.He went back and got a manager to come tell me he was not comfortable selling me the gun because it was going to be a 3rd party sale.Well in the state of Ohio you must be 21 to purchase a gun. My boys all hunt, I offered to show "Corey" that these were my children ,their hunting licenses,and hunting safety classes. Neither associate would even look at my documentation.How do I purchase a new long gun for my sons with no criminal record?

 

[dogtown tom]

holloway199:...How do I purchase a new long gun for my sons with no criminal record?

That can happen at any gun store, not just Wal Mart.
Just go to another Wal Mart and leave the kids in the car.

 

[NavyLCDR]

That can happen at any gun store, not just Wal Mart.
Just go to another Wal Mart and leave the kids in the car.

Yep. Some FFL's simply won't sell a firearm if they find out that it is going to be lawfully given to someone as a gift or, in this case, lawfully used by another person for hunting. In those instances, like dealing with police officers, don't tell if they don't ask and if they do ask, it's none of their business. Like dogtown tom said, just go to the next store that will do the lawful sale and don't indicate to them your lawful intentions for the firearm you are buying.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

Go to another store with out your sons.

 

[Jeff F]

I hope you did not have to pay for a background check and if you did they gave you your money back.

 

[dogtown tom]

NavyLCDR:.........Yep. Some FFL's simply won't sell a firearm if they find out that it is going to be lawfully given to someone as a gift or, in this case, lawfully used by another person for hunting.

It's not because they are afraid of it being a "gift", but they are terrified of a straw sale. ATF does a fantastic job of making dealers paranoid of the prospects of a straw sale occuring. They tell us what behaviors to look for and to stop the transaction on suspicion alone. What they don't do so well is educating the dealer on "gifts"........it goes counter to the purposes of the ATF to do so.

Unfortunately the ATF's efforts to keep guns out of the hands of prohibited persons impacts the rest of us.

What puzzles me most is this:

holloway199:...Well in the state of Ohio you must be 21 to purchase a gun.

That's not true. An eighteen year old can purchase a rifle or shotgun in Ohio:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.211



.

 

[NavyLCDR]

What puzzles me most is this:

Quote:
holloway199:...Well in the state of Ohio you must be 21 to purchase a gun.

That's not true. An eighteen year old can purchase a rifle or shotgun in Ohio:
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2923.211

That's what I remembered to be true as well, but I didn't have time to look it up so I wasn't going to post it until I did.

 

[dcdub]

Take a little trip down Route 173 to Alliance, hit the WalMart there, just don't bring your kids to the counter with you this time. Or you could probably go back to the same WalMart during a different shift, again, without the kids.

 

[bigfatdave]

Well in the state of Ohio you must be 21 to purchase a gun.

BzZzZzZT! Wrong! You got lied to.
Skip the idiots at WalMart and go buy a gun from a gun shop ... problem solved.

 

[JVaughn]

forget WalMart, go to a gun store that supports the NRA. I'll bet they don't fear selling you a gun for your boys to hunt with. I'm not a Wal-Mart hater or anything; but if they don't want to sell to you, don't let them win.

 

[wow6599]

I did the same thing with my step-son when he was 9 years old. Went to the local WM and he chose a Savage MKII (.22lr). It took about 2 hours (no joke) for them to figure out how to get the background check done........but I left with my "straw purchse", or gift as I call it.

If you anyone really thinks that is a straw purchase...............

 

[Dimis]

Or you could probably go back to the same WalMart during a different shift, again, without the kids.

^^This^^

thats what I had to do to get my 10/22

the lady at walmart felt uncomfortable selling me a firearm because I had a friend with me and she felt it was a straw sale

I came back a few days later and got my gun

Only gun I ever bought from walmart and is the last ill pay more to not be treated like a criminal thanks

 

[MedWheeler]

If that's you full name in the beginning of your post, I'd recommend you go back and edit it out.. Thanks for joining. I'd do what others said; if you really want the gun, go back alone, when another WM associate is working. Don't mention the previous visit.

 

[jon_in_wv]

If you are purchasing the firearm for someone else you are supposed to say so. If you let the kid pick out the gun then say its for you in front of the seller they aren't SUPPOSED to sell it to you if you are claiming it for yourself. Its the rule in many shops because they aren't going to go to prison because you don't want to follow the stinking rules. I have no problem with the OP buying a weapon and giving it legally to his son but if you are buying as a gift for someone you either claim it that way or don't make it OBVIOUS that is what you are doing. If you are buying with the intent of giving it someone else then then you are breaking the letter of the law if that person isn't supposed to buy it for them self. Walmart or any other gun dealer doesn't have an obligation to help you do that.

Now this is all quantified on one big "IF". Buying a firearm with the intent to give it to another person who is also legally allowed to purchase a firearm is, as far as I know, legal. BUT Walmart doesn't have the responsibility to discern your intentions. Generally the policy is to not let anyone purchase a firearm if it appears it is for someone else. They are covering their own tails so they can keep their FFL. I don't blame them. It sucks, but I don't blame them. Every time a dealer gets busted allowing straw purchases it strengthen the gun grabbers arguments and hurts all of OUR rights. I would rather they are strict to the letter and hurt someone's feeling once in a while rather than playing loosey goosey and ending up on the news as one more reason to take away our guns.

Chalk it up as a lesson learned and buy it somewhere else.

NOw I'll get flamed. Oh, well.

 

[basicblur]

I can't come down hard on Wal-Mart since (King Michael) Bloomberg is still up to his old tricks.
After his gun shop 'sting' from a few years back, everybody's antenna is up.

I'm sure others in here have already told you how to handle it.

 

[GunSafari]

With all the undercover stings it can appear to be a straw sale no matter how innocent. Even if its going to be the kids gun out on the range/field, on paper it belongs to you and the sale is to you. Now you know what he wants you to buy for him to use, go and buy it for yourself, any dealer hears your buying the weapon for someone other then yourself (yes that includes family/children) they will most likely turn you down, never know when your being tested by the people that can take away your license....

 

[bigfatdave]

If you are purchasing the firearm for someone else you are supposed to say so.

Where is that box to check on the 4473, exactly?


Buying a gun as a gift makes you the "actual purchaser" ... perhaps you shouldn't be recommending ways to fill out forms you didn't reference, jon_in_wv ... and that was really easy to dig up.
That appears to be an older version with write-in rather than check-boxes, but the phrasing on the 4473s I've filled out was extremely similar.

===

Just go to another Wal Mart and leave the kids in the car.

Take a little trip down Route 173 to Alliance, hit the WalMart there, just don't bring your kids to the counter with you this time. Or you could probably go back to the same WalMart during a different shift, again, without the kids.

I really don't see giving business to the company that lied to you as a good plan here.

 

[DWFan]

Quote from dogtown tom:
"ATF does a fantastic job of making dealers paranoid of the prospects of a straw sale occuring. They tell us what behaviors to look for and to stop the transaction on suspicion alone. What they don't do so well is educating the dealer on "gifts"........it goes counter to the purposes of the ATF to do so.
Unfortunately the ATF's efforts to keep guns out of the hands of prohibited persons impacts the rest of us."

Except when it comes to ATF policies, (currently under investigation), of deliberately allowing illegal sales to firearm's buyers for the express purpose of supplying those weapons to known murderers and drug dealers. Ask Congressman Issa or Senator Grassley.

Don't buy a firearm at Walmart. Most of the time the sales people are not familiar with firearms and have little to no clue even what ammo goes to what weapon. The weapons themselves are seldom taken care of other than an occasional wipe-down.

 

[dogtown tom]

bigfatdave: ....I really don't see giving business to the company that lied to you as a good plan here.

Where exactly did WalMart lie to the OP?

DWFan

Quote from dogtown tom:
"ATF does a fantastic job of making dealers paranoid of the prospects of a straw sale occuring. They tell us what behaviors to look for and to stop the transaction on suspicion alone. What they don't do so well is educating the dealer on "gifts"........it goes counter to the purposes of the ATF to do so.
Unfortunately the ATF's efforts to keep guns out of the hands of prohibited persons impacts the rest of us."

Except when it comes to ATF policies, (currently under investigation), of deliberately allowing illegal sales to firearm's buyers for the express purpose of supplying those weapons to known murderers and drug dealers. Ask Congressman Issa or Senator Grassley.

"Except"? Except what? Your reply to my post is lost on me. What the heck does Gunriunner have to do with this thread?

 

[jon_in_wv]

Where is that box to check on the 4473, exactly?

Yeah I'm familiar with the form too.

Try 11a.

But there is a REASON I didn't reference the form. You see I wasn't TALKING strictly about the form. If you walk in with another person, show them the guns, let them pick it out like its for them, THEN go to the dealer and pretend its for yourself you are making yourself look suspicious. If you do the above and tell the dealer its a gift for the other person then the dealer may or may not sell it to you but it would be a legal sale. So you see, I was talking about the sale as a WHOLE, not just checking a box.

For anyone else who didn't understand what I was saying before I'll try to make it simpler. There are two circumstances where a person is buying a weapon for another person. One of them is legal, on of them is not. In many stores there is a policy to make NO sales to anyone who appears to be purchasing for another person. The policy is to cover their tail and protect their FFL. I hope that is a little more clear.

From the notices on the form:

1. For purposes of this form, you are the actual buyer if you are purchasing the
firearm for yourself or otherwise acquiring the firearm for yourself (for example,
redeeming the firearm from pawn/retrieving it from consignment). You are also the
actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm as a legitimate gift for a third party.
ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for
Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT
the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer “no “ to question 12a. The
licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr. Brown goes to
buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Black as a present, Mr. Brown is
the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer “yes” to question 12a.

In the OPs specific case he didn't do anything wrong by LAW. But that doesn't change Walmarts policy. It doesn't mean Walmart has to take your word that your purchase is legal. Couldn't the OP have just as easily been claiming the guy he was buying for was his son when in fact he was a convicted felon? He could have just as easily been agents of the ATF setting up a suspicious sale. Why should Walmart take that risk? I don't think they should.


When it comes to filling out the ATF 4473, my only comment on that is to be 100% truthful filling it out. If the ATF can prove you lied on that form, you very well may be facing prison time. I PERSONALLY know of several people in this area doing several years in prison for falsifying that form.

I bought my daughters Ruger 10/22 for her birthday at Walmart. I had no issues getting it for her there. We pulled it out of the case, tried it for fit, I told the guy it was for her for her birthday. I had no issues.

 

[oneeyeross]

I think this was a wal-mart employee not knowing what he was doing. Everyone I've ever dealt with who has an FFL (Wal-mart and others) knows about gifting a firearm....this was someone who had no clue...

 

[mgkdrgn]

I think this was a wal-mart employee not knowing what he was doing. Everyone I've ever dealt with who has an FFL (Wal-mart and others) knows about gifting a firearm....this was someone who had no clue...

What he said. What do you expect from a part time minimum wage sales clerk that worked in the shoe section yesterday.

 

[mgmorden]

Realistically it's just a clerk that felt uncomfortable. It's not endemic to Wal-mart or "part time minimum wage sales clerks". Basically, in today's litigious society, just as a CYA matter a lot of places aren't going to sell you a gun if there's someone else with you handling and looking at the gun.

They don't have to take your word for it - if they SUSPECT that it might be a straw sale they're going to refuse it. As has been mentioned several times - just go back at a different time - alone - and buy it then.

 

[JoeMal]

Go back tomorrow and leave the kids at home

 

[basicblur]

I think this was a wal-mart employee not knowing what he was doing. Everyone I've ever dealt with who has an FFL (Wal-mart and others) knows about gifting a firearm....this was someone who had no clue...

Post Bloomberg, I'd say it's probably a case of an employee that does know what he's doing.
I'm guessing additional instructions have been passed on to employees to make sure the person they're selling to is not one of Bloomberg's cronies.

Gun shop just up the road from me was one caught up in Bloomberg's fiasco a few years back-he was one of the two shops that refused to settle.

'Course, ole King Michael ended up buying him a new house, but that's a whole 'nother story!