After the fact bill of sale - What would you do?

[Willie Sutton]

That part actually isn't true, at least around here.


There are certainly regional flavors to things. I'm in Wisconsin, and our CCW law is less than 2 years old. Just about *Everyone* involved with 2A issues here ran to get one, so it's more-or-less become the standard entry into being considered "involved". Buyers show them with a smile, as just 18 months ago they were not obtainable. When you sell to someone here you hardly need to ask to see it, as it's volunteered with pride.



Willie

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[Prometheus]

In Indiana (and most states, if not all that allow FTF private sales):

Pound sand.

A bill of sale does absolutely NOTHING to offer any protection what so ever to either party.

Some one wanting to play "pretend FFL" is fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

 

[denton]

A Bill of Sale is not what firearm owners think it is. How it got so contorted in the firearm arena baffles me.

A Bill of Sale is a document provided by the seller, for the benefit of the buyer. It shows that the seller has transferred title to the buyer.

It is not a certificate signed by the buyer to acknowledge who he is and what he bought. If you want to provide that kind of documentation, you certainly can. But please don't call it a Bill of Sale.

So the correct answer for the OP is: I don't need a Bill of Sale. Thank you for offering.

 

[Elkins45]

A bill of sale does absolutely NOTHING to offer any protection what so ever to either party.

Some one wanting to play "pretend FFL" is fooling themselves if they think otherwise.

I disagree. If you have insurance on your guns (I do) a receipt provides documentation that you actually paid X dollars for firearm Y in the event you ever file an insurance claim on it. I can photograph the gun sitting on my couch to prove that I once had it inside my house, but a receipt establishes ownership and an actual cash value. I sold a rifle to a fellow with a C&R FFL and he made my giving him a receipt a condition of the sale. I was happy to give him one.

Just because you don't HAVE to do paperwork on private sales in many states doesn't mean that it is somehow evil. I would be happy to get or give a receipt for any +$100 transaction. I bought a set of Vice Grips at a pawn shop recently for $3 and the lady gave me a receipt!

Now, having said all the above I will say that I have bought and sold a number of guns without any such documentation. In none of those transactions would I have let a request for paperwork nix the deal.

 

[thorazine]

Another vote for,

[X] Tell him to go pound sand.


A bill of sale is a deal breaker for me.

Unless I know for certain you are going to keep the document safely secured within a safety deposit box deep inside a bank vault and the document itself is rigged to self immolate mission impossible style in the event of any SHTF scenario leaving only ashes behind...

No deal.

If the seller requires one it needs to be clearly stated in the terms of the advertisement.


Other than the way out reasons... I don't trust your record keeping and storage is secure and a BOS is a sensitive document in my opinion.

 

[Prometheus]

I disagree. If you have insurance on your guns (I do) a receipt provides documentation that you actually paid X dollars for firearm Y in the event you ever file an insurance claim on it. I can photograph the gun sitting on my couch to prove that I once had it inside my house, but a receipt establishes ownership and an actual cash value.

A hand scrawled (or generic printed piece of paper) is going to satisfy insurance when the serial number and police report won't? If you say so.

I had a handgun stolen from me. I bought it in a private sale in which I had no paperwork. The police report, with serial number and my fair market valuation sufficed for the NRA insurance people.

I sold a rifle to a fellow with a C&R FFL and he made my giving him a receipt a condition of the sale. I was happy to give him one.

The first part of that is you bought a gun from a FFL...

He is required, by federal law (as an FFL, yes a C&R is an FL), to get several pieces of information from you and record them into his "bound book" when disposing of any firearms on his license. As far him "making" you give him a receipt, that's on him as it's not required.

That has nothing to do with a private sale however.

Just because you don't HAVE to do paperwork on private sales in many states doesn't mean that it is somehow evil.

Not sure anyone said it was evil. Doesn't mean that the myths associated with "bill of sale" in relation to private sales shouldn't be dispelled.

I bought a set of Vice Grips at a pawn shop recently for $3 and the lady gave me a receipt!

I have no idea what that has to do with the price of tea in China.

Now, having said all the above I will say that I have bought and sold a number of guns without any such documentation.

Good.

 

[oneounceload]

Ed, I never said I wouldn't sell my neibors of friends guns, I was talking strangers that might be drug heads & possible shoot or rob someone I know.

What makes you think those folks wouldn't rob or kill you for the gun?

Too many folks dreaming up WAY too many what-if scenarios

 

[Ed Ames]

As far him "making" you give him a receipt, that's on him as it's not required.

It isn't required, but the request is based on the regulations. In plain English: if he gets a receipt, he has 7 days to record the transaction, otherwise it must be done immediately.

For people who are traveling and buying guns along the way that can be a huge deal. They want to leave their bound book in the safe with the collection. I could easily see requiring a receipt in that case, especially if the purchase wasn't planned. It isn't that the guy is being arbitrary.

 

[Prometheus]

It isn't required, but the request is based on the regulations. In plain English: if he gets a receipt, he has 7 days to record the transaction, otherwise it must be done immediately.

For people who are traveling and buying guns along the way that can be a huge deal. They want to leave their bound book in the safe with the collection. I could easily see requiring a receipt in that case, especially if the purchase wasn't planned. It isn't that the guy is being arbitrary.

This is in no way germane to the topic at hand, private sales between two private persons, however since you wanted to talk about the regulations...

First, are you talking about selling or buying?

Because if they purchase they have to record it in their bound book by the close of the next business day. Period.

The C&R FFL holder has seven days to record the sale in their bound book. Period.

It makes no exceptions for special circumstances if the licensee gets a receipt or is out of town.

A bill of sale, or receipt, is not required when selling or disposing of a firearm. The C&R holder could transcribe the information on a napkin until they enter it into their bound book or if they have a photographic memory, use that.

(f) Firearms receipt and disposition by licensed collectors. Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios or relics. The record required by this paragraph shall be maintained in bound form under the format prescribed below. The purchase or other acquisition of a curio or relic shall, except as provided in paragraph (g) of this section, be recorded not later than the close of the next business day following the date of such purchase or other acquisition. The record shall show the date of receipt, the name and address or the name and license number of the person from whom received, the name of the manufacturer and importer (if any), the model, serial number, type, and the caliber or gauge of the firearm curio or relic. The sale or other disposition of a curio or relic shall be recorded by the licensed collector not later than 7 days following the date of such transaction.

The record shall show the date of the sale or other disposition of each firearm curio or relic, the name and address of the person to whom the firearm curio or relic is transferred, or the name and license number of the person to whom transferred if such person is a licensee, and the date of birth of the transferee if other than a licensee. In addition, the licensee shall cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and shall note on the record the method used. In addition, the licensee shall—

(1) Cause the transferee, if other than a licensee, to be identified in any manner customarily used in commercial transactions (e.g., a driver's license), and note on the record the method used, and

(2) In the case of a transferee who is an alien legally in the United States and who is other than a licensee—

(i) Verify the identity of the transferee by examining an identification document (as defined in §478.11), and

(ii) Cause the transferee to present documentation establishing that the transferee is a resident of the State (as defined in §478.11) in which the licensee's business premises is located if the firearm curio or relic is other than a shotgun or rifle, and note on the record the documentation used or is a resident of any State and has resided in such State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm if the firearm curio or relic is a shotgun or rifle and shall note on the record the documentation used. Examples of acceptable documentation include utility bills or a lease agreement which show that the transferee has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 days prior to the transfer of the firearm curio or relic.

http://law.justia.com/cfr/title27/27-2.0.1.2.3.8.1.6.html

That's why you shouldn't ask for, or take, legal advice on the interwebs without requiring the applicable law, code or rule be cited and preferably linked to.

Way to many myths floating around.

 

[Ed Ames]

Speaking of myths...did you see that "except for paragraph (g)" in the code you quoted?

27 CFR Ch. II (4–1–10 Edition) §478.125 ...
g) Commercial records of firearms received. When a commercial record is held by a licensed dealer or licensed collector showing the acquisition of a firearm or firearm curio or relic, and such record contains all acquisition information required by the bound record prescribed by paragraphs (e) and (f) of this section, the licensed dealer or licensed collector acquiring such firearm or curio or relic, may, for a period not exceeding 7 days following the date of such acquisition, delay making the required entry into such bound record: Provided, That the commercial record is, until such time as the required entry into the bound record is made, (1) maintained by the licensed dealer or licensed collector separate from other commercial documents maintained by such licensee, and (2) readily available for inspection on the licensed premises ...

In other words, when buying/acquiring, if you have a receipt (commercial record) showing the relevant info you have 7 days to record in your bound book.

Why the attitude? What did it gain you?

 

[Prometheus]

In other words, when buying/acquiring, if you have a receipt (commercial record) showing the relevant info you have 7 days to record in your bound book.

Why the attitude? What did it gain you?

I did notice it. I looked it up and posted it for you afterall.

Sorry if you took it as attitude.

I've done enough searching and copy paste for you, look up what the definition of the commercial record and you'll have your answer as to if your "receipt" qualifies as a commercial record.

 

[Ed Ames]

Sigh...I would have more respect for you if you just admitted you hadn't read paragraph (g) and got all excited thinking you were going to score some points in whatever game you think you are playing, and went off prematurely. That's what it looks like happened.

The code says 7 days with a commercial record. A bill of sale is a classic, textbook, example of a commercial record. If you think otherwise that's an extraordinary claim and it's up to you to prove your unlikely assertion. In the mean time shame on you for trying to reinterpret the code by ignoring paragraphs that don't support whatever myth you believe.

 

[Blackbeard]

Quote:
351 WINCHESTER Nothing wrong with a bill of sale. It protects both the buyer and seller unless one or both parties has something to hide.
Please provide an example of this "protection".

Uh, seller claiming you didn't pay for the gun in full? That you still owe him money? Haven't you ever watched people's court? Always always ALWAYS get a bill of sale.

 

[AirForceShooter]

If you're worried where the gun may wind up 2 or 3 owners down the road just use an FFL to do a transfer or trade it in.


AFS

 

[Ryanxia]

I'm usually overly concerned with privacy but I'd give him my last name, that's not unreasonable. If it was after the fact I'd say that's all you need and have a nice day.
I've let someone copy down my DL when they were buying from me (retired LEO all paranoid) but probably wouldn't when buying.

 

[Art Eatman]

This thread is about face-to-face sales where FFLs and registration are not a legally-required part of the deal.

So stick with discussion of legal aspects of a bill of sale.

 

[sota]

The fact that we do have a registration/tracking system for firearms (manufacturer -> dealer -> FFL -> buyer) with the bound books puts me in the same mindeset as Willie...
would prefer to buy without one, but would always want to sell with one. Now granted i'm in a Slave State so I don't have to worry... that happens already as it is, at least with handguns.

 

[Chris-bob]

The way I see it, if the gun control advocates see that a large percentage of private transfers use a BoS as a system of 'tracking' and 'registration', they will only use that against you and for them regarding universal background checks. Draw a line in the sand and stick to your guns.

 

[leadcounsel]

A few years ago I would do a bill of sale. I don't do it any more.

My email and phone records and full name are enough to show that a legal transfer occured.

Identity theft, and heck even burglarly, is a real issue.

Think about it, if you give your personal ID or address out, you are opening yourself up. Now this stranger knows where you live, and may know your work schedule if that was brought up. Can you say burglary?

I keep a log of the persons full name, city, phone number/email address/forum screen name and date and price and call it good.

I would just tell him that it wasn't part of the deal, tell him to just record the above information, and that you don't feel comfortable providing these other details.

 

[garyr]

A little too much paranoia ruling the day here.


I ______ on this day ________ do sell one <insert description here> hand gun as-is for the price of $________ to Joe Blow.



Seller:_________

Buyer:_________


Sure, he doesn't need your drivers license number, just let him know that. Nothing wrong with a bill of sale.

 

[oneounceload]

If there's too much paranoia, why are you even doing that??^^^^

"Hi Joe, here's the cash"
"Thanks, Bob, here's the gun"
"Have a nice day"
"You too"

end of transaction

 

[hermannr]

One thing you need to remember, it is LE obligation to PROVE you do NOT own the rifle, not your obligation to prove you do own the rifle (pistol, shotgun,,whatever)

 

[Blackbeard]

"Hi Joe, here's the cash"
"Thanks, Bob, here's the gun"
"Have a nice day"
"You too"

JOE: Hey Bob, you never paid me for that gun.
BOB: Yes I did, don't you remember?
JOE: No, the price was $500 and you only gave me half up front.
BOB: That wasn't the deal.
JOE: Yes it was. Fork over $250 or I'll sue.
BOB: Pound sand.
JOE: I'll see you in court.

 

[CoRoMo]

Having sued A LOT of people in small claims court, I can say that the $250 suit you suggest would go nowhere. The dishonest seller would have zero proof that the price was initially $500 but the victimized buyer might have some email correspondence to refute the fictitious claim. Even if he did not, mere word against word won't amount in anything. The suit filer will have spent money to bring the matter to court, but the defendant will not have.

 

[Elkins45]

Think about this discussion outside the context of firearms. Allow me to gerericize the OP:

"I sold my expensive object with an individualized serial number to a guy and he later decided he wanted me to write a receipt for him. What would you have done?"

To me the fact that the object in question is a gun doesn't change the fact that you are involved in a business transaction. Acknowledging the exchange of cash for material goods through the issue of a receipt or bill of sale is a legitimate act of commerce. You can certainly choose to decline to participate in the legitimate and commonplace act, but being asked to issue a receipt isn't something I would consider unreasonable whether I was selling a rifle, a refrigerator, or a riding mower.

I think some aren't seeing the difference between a private individual ASKING for documentation of a sale vs the government REQUIRING registration. I would never engage in a transaction as a seller that I was unwilling to acknowledge. As a buyer I understand maybe not wanting a paper trail on a gun but as a seller I don't.