AG Holder fires back

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Anyone smells that?


Smells like desperation.

Even if Holder didn't know about it, he still failed as the head. Even if someone's LIFE WASN'T WRONGFULLY LOST in all this, he would still have no business remaining as Attorney General.
 
Watergate was less of a mess and involved less questionable actions
and in the end someone ACTUALLY took responsibility
but this, this makes watergate look like, well not that bad.
 
Neverwinter said:
F&F has come up in conversation with a coworker that I normally talk guns with, and I have to agree with his assessment: "People want this to get to Obama, regardless of his actual involvement."

Well, considering that Kevin O'Reilly (White House National Security Staff) was in direct contact with Bill Newell, it looks a bit suspicious. Then of course, you have the emails from Newell to O'Reilly mentioning Fast & Furious by name and saying "You didn't get this from me." Then you have O'Reilly testifying he briefed other NSC members, including Dan Restrepo. Then you have the White House ackowledging it has documents relevant to what the House Oversight Committee requested but that it will not release them because it involves confidential matters of Executive privilege - and in the same breath they indicate O'Reilly is currently unavailable to testify due to being in Iraq; but do not discuss when or if he will testify before Congress.

You can kind of see where people might get the idea the President had some knowledge of this program. - and of course, DOJ's reluctance to share with the Oversight Committee and outright lying to the Committee (No guns were walked to Mexico! I meant ATF didn't personally walk guns to Mexico. I meant, the DOJ didn't know about guns being walked to Mexico. I meant DOJ didn't know about guns being walked to Mexico except for that email where the Deputy AG of Criminal and the Chief of the National Gang Unit indicate that they knew about guns being walked to Mexico; but that wasn't Fast and Furious so it doesn't count.) don't help with the impression that the President is stonewalling.
 
Folks, I'm seeing much comparison of this situation (and others) to Watergate. The difference between this debacle and Watergate isn't so much about the type or severity of repercussions but, rather, our country's lack of backbone and integrity to do anything about it. I firmly believe this is largely due to the media being sold to the highest bidder resulting in the weakening of truthful investigative reporting by the press, all caused by corporate and political apathy and greed and, therefore, resulting in near total destruction of media truth-telling. The bottom line is there is too much filth in government, media, and corporations to allow us to make a difference. It's all swept under the rug and all we do is sit here and complain about it... me included.
 
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You can kind of see where people might get the idea the President had some knowledge of this program. - and of course, DOJ's reluctance to share with the Oversight Committee and outright lying to the Committee (No guns were walked to Mexico! I meant ATF didn't personally walk guns to Mexico. I meant, the DOJ didn't know about guns being walked to Mexico. I meant DOJ didn't know about guns being walked to Mexico except for that email where the Deputy AG of Criminal and the Chief of the National Gang Unit indicate that they knew about guns being walked to Mexico; but that wasn't Fast and Furious so it doesn't count.) don't help with the impression that the President is stonewalling.
The conversations I was referring to were a while back, close to the beginning of the first threads on THR when we barely knew anything about the problem. Those definitely set the foundation for my agreement with his conclusion regarding malice.

The comment by a moderator referring to Obama as "the man child" just reminded me of it. That seemed rather in-congruent to me, considering I was censured/censored for using a moniker that the Tea Party themselves adopted(source).
 
Holder is a corrupt thug in a suit, the travesty is, the current corrupt system will protect him, Obama included. I can't wait for that a-hole (Obama) to get kicked out of the white house, by two boots in the booty, lol.
 
F&F has come up in conversation with a coworker that I normally talk guns with, and I have to agree with his assessment: "People want this to get to Obama, regardless of his actual involvement."
Nobody is going to pretend that Obama never made that "under the radar" comment to the anti-gunners.

This won't be the first (or even the fifty millionth time) somebody's arrogance has led them to incriminate themselves just so they can look clever.

"Fast & Furious" is the equivalent of Stalin's conspiracy to murder Kirov and use that murder to go after his potential rivals in the ranks of the "old Bolsheviks", such as Bukharin. Instead of rivals in government, Obama and Holder sought to eliminate as much of the 2nd Amendment as possible.

"Fast and Furious" is as riddled with inconsistencies, incongruities, and gems of incompetent attempts at coverup as the Kirov murder and the subsequent purges.
 
So who will bear responsibility for Wide Receiver?



From 2006 to about the end of 2007, as part of "Operation Wide Receiver," investigators "permitted guns to be transferred to suspected gun traffickers and had not interdicted them," according to a current Justice Department official.

LOL Holder gets caught and then follows this administrations standard operating procedure of Blame It On Bush.
 
furncliff said:
From 2006 to about the end of 2007, as part of "Operation Wide Receiver," investigators "permitted guns to be transferred to suspected gun traffickers and had not interdicted them," according to a current Justice Department official.

If you read the thread on Wide Receiver, it discusses the case in more detail. In Wide Receiver, they did attempt to interdict weapons, including using aerial surveillance and RFID. Unfortunately, they were largely unsuccessful, interdicting only 47 of 269 weapons. According to the cooperating FFL, the ATF agents then lied to the AUSA about the weapons being tracked. When the AUSA discovered the lies, he shut down the investigation and declined to prosecute. When the new AUSA took over, they re-opened the case and prosecuted 7 low-level straw purchasers while Fast & Furious was going on.

By comparison, Fast and Furious used no tracking devices other than a single agent who bought one in Radio Shack. In addition, no attempt to interdict was made and according to several ATF agents, they were directly ordered not to interdict on several occasions. Further, it appears the new AUSA knew about the gunwalking and was OK with it.
 
I won't be happy with anything less than an indictment as an accessory to murder. That is what you or I could reasonably expect if we knowingly (and in some states, unknowingly) put guns in the hands of criminals who then used them to kill a LEO.
 
It's getting to him... :) It is about time. I fully expected him to lash out in defense of what I hope are proved to be indefensible actions. This is just part of the program. Most politicians will do the same thing. You attack the messenger rather than the facts when the facts don't support your case. It will get better as more pressure is applied.

From 2006 to about the end of 2007, as part of "Operation Wide Receiver," investigators "permitted guns to be transferred to suspected gun traffickers and had not interdicted them," according to a current Justice Department official.

Blame somebody else. It is part of the program. The current administration is very good at blaming the previous administration.
 
Issa just slapped Holder a new one today.

Issa to Holder: “You Own Fast and Furious”
WASHINGTON, D.C. – House Oversight and Government Reform Committee Chairman Darrell Issa today sent a letter to U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder responding to his letter of October 7. The text of Chairman Issa's letter to Attorney General Holder is below:

Dear Attorney General Holder:

From the beginning of the congressional investigation into Operation Fast and Furious, the Department of Justice has offered a roving set of ever-changing explanations to justify its involvement in this reckless and deadly program. These defenses have been aimed at undermining the investigation. From the start, the Department insisted that no wrongdoing had occurred and asked Senator Grassley and me to defer our oversight responsibilities over its concerns about our purported interference with its ongoing criminal investigations. Additionally, the Department steadfastly insisted that gunwalking did not occur.

Once documentary and testimonial evidence strongly contradicted these claims, the Department attempted to limit the fallout from Fast and Furious to the Phoenix Field Division of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives (ATF). When that effort also proved unsuccessful, the Department next argued that Fast and Furious resided only within ATF itself, before eventually also assigning blame to the U.S. Attorney's Office in Arizona. All of these efforts were designed to circle the wagons around DOJ and its political appointees.

To that end, just last month, you claimed that Fast and Furious did not reach the upper levels of the Justice Department. Documents discovered through the course of the investigation, however, have proved each and every one of these claims advanced by the Department to be untrue. It appears your latest defense has reached a new low. Incredibly, in your letter from Friday you now claim that you were unaware of Fast and Furious because your staff failed to inform you of information contained in memos that were specifically addressed to you. At best, this indicates negligence and incompetence in your duties as Attorney General. At worst, it places your credibility into serious doubt.

Following the Committee's issuance of a subpoena over six months ago, I strongly believed that the Department would fully cooperate with Congress and support this investigation with all the means at its disposal. The American people deserve no less. Unfortunately, the Department's cooperation to date has been minimal. Hundreds of pages of documents that have been produced to my Committee are duplicative, and hundreds more contain substantial redactions, rendering them virtually worthless. The Department has actively engaged in retaliation against multiple whistleblowers, and has, on numerous occasions, attempted to disseminate false and misleading information to the press in an attempt to discredit this investigation.

Your letter dated October 7 is deeply disappointing. Instead of pledging all necessary resources to assist the congressional investigation in discovering the truth behind the fundamentally flawed Operation Fast and Furious, your letter instead did little but obfuscate, shift blame, berate, and attempt to change the topic away from the Department's responsibility in the creation, implementation, and authorization of this reckless program. You claim that, after months of silence, you "must now address these issues" over Fast and Furious because of the harmful discourse of the past few days. Yet, the only major development of these past few days has been the release of multiple documents showing that you and your senior staff had been briefed, on numerous occasions, about Fast and Furious.

The Mexican Cartels

A month after you became Attorney General, you spoke of the danger of the Mexican drug cartels, and the Sinaloa cartel in particular. The cartels, you said, "are lucrative, they are violent, and they are operated with stunning planning and precision." You promised that under your leadership "these cartels will be destroyed." You vowed that the Department of Justice would "continue to work with [its] counterparts in Mexico, through information sharing, training and mutual cooperation to jointly fight these cartels, both in Mexico and the United States."

Under your leadership, however, Operation Fast and Furious has proven these promises hollow. According to one agent, Operation Fast and Furious "armed the cartel. It is disgusting." Fast and Furious simply served as a convenient means for dangerous cartels to acquire upwards of 2,000 assault-style weapons. On top of that, the Government of Mexico was not informed about Fast and Furious. In fact, DOJ and ATF officials actively engaged in hiding information about Fast and Furious from not only Mexican officials, but also U.S. law enforcement officials operating in Mexico for fear that they would inform their Mexican counterparts. This strategy is inapposite and contradicts the promises you made to the American people.

Your September 7, 2011 Statement

On September 7, 2011, you said that "[t]he notion that [Fast and Furious] reaches into the upper levels of the Justice Department is something that at this point I don't think is supported by the facts and I think once we examine it and once the facts are revealed we'll see that's not the case." Unfortunately, the facts directly contradict this statement.

Lanny Breuer, the Assistant Attorney General for the Criminal Division, clearly a member of the Department's senior leadership, knew about Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. In fact, I have learned that the amount of detail shared with Breuer's top deputies about Fast and Furious is simply astounding.

For example, Manuel Celis-Acosta was the "biggest fish" of the straw purchasing ring in Phoenix. From the time the investigation started in September 2009 until March 15, 2010, Manuel Celis-Acosta acquired at least 852 firearms valued at around $500,000 through straw purchasers. Yet in 2009, Celis-Acosta reported an Arizona taxable income of only $15,475. Between September 2009 and late January 2010, 139 of these firearms were recovered, 81 in Mexico alone. Some of these firearms were recovered less than 24 hours after they were bought.

This information, and hundreds of pages worth of additional information, was included in highly detailed wiretap applications sent for authorization to Breuer's top deputies. It is my understanding, the Department applied to the United States District Court for the District of Arizona for numerous wire taps from March 2010 to July 2010. These wire tap applications were reviewed and approved by several Deputy Assistant Attorney Generals, including Kenneth A. Blanco, John C. Keeney, and Jason M. Weinstein. Breuer's top deputies approved these wiretap applications to be used against individuals associated with the known drug cartels. As I understand it, the wire tap applications contain rich detail of the reckless operational tactics being employed by your agents in Phoenix. Although Breuer and his top deputies were informed of the operational details and tactics of Fast and Furious, they did nothing to stop the program. In fact, on a trip to Mexico Breuer trumpeted Fast and Furious as a promising investigation.

Gary Grindler, the then-Deputy Attorney General and currently your Chief of Staff, received an extremely detailed briefing on Operation Fast and Furious on March 12, 2010. In this briefing, Grindler learned such minutiae as the number of times that Uriel Patino, a straw purchaser on food stamps who ultimately acquired 720 firearms, went in to a cooperating gun store and the amount of guns that he had bought. When former Acting ATF Director Ken Melson, a career federal prosecutor, learned similar information, he became sick to his stomach:

I had pulled out all Patino's -- and ROIs is, I'm sorry, report of investigation -- and you know, my stomach being in knots reading the number of times he went in and the amount of guns that he bought. Transcribed interview of Acting ATF Director Kenneth Melson at 42.

At the time of his briefing in March of last year, Grindler knew that Patino had purchased 313 weapons and paid for all of them in cash. Unlike Melson, Grindler clearly saw nothing wrong with this. If Grindler had had the sense to shut this investigation down right then, he could have prevented the purchase of an additional 407 weapons by Patino alone. Instead, Grindler did nothing to stop the program.

Following this briefing, it is clear that Grindler did one of two things. Either, he alerted you to the name and operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case your May 3, 2011 testimony in front of Congress was false; or, he failed to inform you of the name and the operational details of Fast and Furious, in which case Grindler engaged in gross dereliction of his duties as Acting Deputy Attorney General. It is fair to infer from the fact that Grindler remains as your Chief of Staff that he did not engage in gross dereliction of his duties and told you about the program as far back as March of 2010.

In the summer of 2010, at the latest, you were undoubtedly informed about Fast and Furious. On at least five occasions you were told of the connection between Fast and Furious and a specific Mexican cartel – the very cartel that you had vowed to destroy. You were informed that Manuel Celis-Acosta and his straw purchasers were responsible for the purchase of 1,500 firearms that were then supplied to Mexican drug trafficking cartels. Yet, you did nothing to stop this program.

You failed to own up to your responsibility to safeguard the American public by hiding behind "[a]ttorneys in [your] office and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General," who you now claim did not bring this information to your attention. Holder Letter, supra note 1. As a result of your failure to act on these memos sent to you, nearly 500 additional firearms were purchased under Fast and Furious.

The facts simply do not support any claim that Fast and Furious did not reach the highest levels of the Justice Department. Actually, Fast and Furious did reach the ultimate authority in the Department – you.

Your May 3, 2011 Statement

On May 3, 2011, I asked you directly when you first knew about the operation known as Fast and Furious. You responded directly, and to the point, that you weren't "sure of the exact date, but [you] probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks." This statement, made before Congress, has proven to be patently untrue. Documents released by the Department just last week showed that you received at least seven memos about Fast and Furious starting as early as July 2010.

In your letter Friday, you blamed your staff for failing to inform you about Operation Fast and Furious when they reviewed the memos sent to you last summer. Your staff, therefore, was certainly aware of Fast and Furious over a year ago. Lanny Breuer was aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010, and Gary Grindler was also aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. Given this frequency of high level involvement with Fast and Furious as much as a year prior to your May 3, 2011 testimony, it simply is not believable that you were not briefed on Fast and Furious until a few weeks before your testimony. At the very least, you should have known about Fast and Furious well before then. The current paper trail, which will only grow more robust as additional documents are discovered, creates the strong perception that your statement in front of Congress was less than truthful.

The February 4, 2011 Letter

Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this intransigence is that the Department of Justice has been lying to Congress ever since the inquiry into Fast and Furious began. On February 4, 2011, Assistant Attorney General Ronald Weich wrote that "ATF makes every effort to interdict weapons that have been purchased illegally and prevent their transport into Mexico." This letter, vetted by both the senior ranks of ATF as well as the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, is a flat-out lie.

As we understand it, in March 2010, top deputies to Lanny Breuer were informed that law enforcement officers intercepted calls that demonstrated that Manuel Celis-Acosta was conspiring to purchase and transport firearms for the purpose of trafficking the firearms from the United States into Mexico. Not only was ATF aware of this information, but so was the Drug Enforcement Administration and the Federal Bureau of Investigation. This information was shared with the Criminal Division. All of these organizations are components of the Department of Justice, and they were all aware of the illegal purchase of firearms and their eventual transportation into Mexico.

These firearms were not interdicted. They were not stopped. Your agents allowed these firearms purchases to continue, sometimes even monitoring them in person, and within days some of these weapons were being recovered in Mexico. Despite widespread knowledge within its senior ranks that this practice was occurring, when asked on numerous occasions about the veracity of this letter, the Department has shockingly continued to stand by its false statement of February 4, 2011.

Mr. Attorney General, you have made numerous statements about Fast and Furious that have eventually been proven to be untrue. Your lack of trustworthiness while speaking about Fast and Furious has called into question your overall credibility as Attorney General. The time for deflecting blame and obstructing our investigation is over. The time has come for you to come clean to the American public about what you knew about Fast and Furious, when you knew it, and who is going to be held accountable for failing to shut down a program that has already had deadly consequences, and will likely cause more casualties for years to come.

Operation Fast and Furious was the Department's most significant gun trafficking case. It related to two of your major initiatives – destroying the Mexican cartels and reducing gun violence on both sides of the border. On your watch, it went spectacularly wrong. Whether you realize yet or not, you own Fast and Furious. It is your responsibility.

Sincerely,

Darrell Issa
Chairman
 
It's getting to him... It is about time. I fully expected him to lash out in defense of what I hope are proved to be indefensible actions.

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"You want the truth?? You can't handle the truth!!... Your G-D right I did!! (ordered a Code Red)
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"Your honor, I request the defendant be given his Miranda Rights."
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On May 3, 2011, I asked you directly when you first knew about the operation known as Fast and Furious. You responded directly, and to the point, that you weren't "sure of the exact date, but [you] probably heard about Fast and Furious for the first time over the last few weeks." This statement, made before Congress, has proven to be patently untrue. Documents released by the Department just last week showed that you received at least seven memos about Fast and Furious starting as early as July 2010.

In your letter Friday, you blamed your staff for failing to inform you about Operation Fast and Furious when they reviewed the memos sent to you last summer. Your staff, therefore, was certainly aware of Fast and Furious over a year ago. Lanny Breuer was aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010, and Gary Grindler was also aware of Fast and Furious as early as March 2010. Given this frequency of high level involvement with Fast and Furious as much as a year prior to your May 3, 2011 testimony, it simply is not believable that you were not briefed on Fast and Furious until a few weeks before your testimony. At the very least, you should have known about Fast and Furious well before then. The current paper trail, which will only grow more robust as additional documents are discovered, creates the strong perception that your statement in front of Congress was less than truthful.

Is speculating that the Attorney General must have known OK around here if Chairman Issa does it?
 
So who will bear responsibility for Wide Receiver?



From 2006 to about the end of 2007, as part of "Operation Wide Receiver," investigators "permitted guns to be transferred to suspected gun traffickers and had not interdicted them," according to a current Justice Department official.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...in-scathing-letter-to-congress/#ixzz1aIwyDazE
There was an honest, if bungled attempt to track the guns in Operation Wide Receiver. These two articles give details,including the names of some of the people involved. A couple of them turn up again in Operation Fast and Furious.
Surprise Surprise
By the way I am still not amused
http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=46714
http://www.theoutdoorwire.com/features/224570
 
Is speculating that the Attorney General must have known OK around here if Chairman Issa does it?

Maybe I do not understand the question:

Issa is the mouth piece for the investigating body. If the body finds no evidence then the mouth piece has nothing to prosecute.

One thing about the government and it's officers is the incredible amount of schedules and paperwork trails it generates as part of records and CYA. One can usually get to the bottom of something "IF" you can beat the shredder.
 
Some developments today in Issa's committee. AAG Lanny Breuer testified today that he was aware of Gunrunner, but did not brief Holder. The other twist comes at the end of the article, where Breuer concurs with Feinstein in noting that the ATF needs more regulatory power:

“the No. 1 tool would be if ATF were given the ability to know when guns are purchased.” Breuer also recommended that Congress grant the ATF and DOJ the ability to require gun dealers who knowingly sell firearms to criminals to forfeit their weapons and inventories.

Not only are they not backing down, they are aggressively trying to change the dialogue towards a need for more firearms regulation...

See the article at

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/1...l-atf-should-have-stopped-gun-walking-tactics
 
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Never mind. Looked like there was clear evidence of Breuer perjuring himself during testimony; but it appears to be sloppy reporting on the part of either the NYT or The Hill since one is reporting Breuer knew about gunwalking in Fast & Furious last year and the other is reporting that Breuer never made the connection between the gunwalking he knew about in Wide Receiver and that he didn't know about in Fast & Furious.

Although how you believe he talked to ATF about Wide Receiver, and then it never even occured to him the exact same people might be walking guns in Fast & Furious, even after it was a major news story, is beyond me. If Breuer is truly that stupid he shouldn't even qualify for a meter maid in DC
 
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Holder cannot take the bal and leave as that would imply that obama was in the know as to the whole mess.

And then obama would be badly tainted for the 2012 election.

So I see Holder not backing down or leaving.
__________________

Of course Obama was in the know; he's not like <excuse the politicking here> Bush 2; he's kept careful control over his staff. I personally think that Obama will have gained points with both communities for 2012, because the antigunners will know about his F&F program while the pro-gun people will remember how he let them carry in more places. And just about anything that happens tohim on the gun front will be made up for because he scored epic national security points by getting Osama Bin Laden. /Politicking.
 
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If Holder is so innocent, why isn't he rooting out and proscuting the guilty parties, instead of trying to bury it? :rolleyes:
 
Apparently, former Bush Attorney General Michael Mukasey was briefed on gunwalking in 2007 when a dozen guns went missing from Wide Receiver. Rep. Elijah Cummings seemed to get very excited about this and wants to bring him in as a witness.

Personally, I can't imagine that is going to pan out as well as Rep. Cummings hopes it might. After all, if the previous Attorney General was briefed when a dozen guns went missing under an operation with tighter controls, what does it say about the current Attorney General's ignorance of 2,000 guns being walked with few controls by the same group of people?
 
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