AG Holder fires back

[jerkface11]

The fact that we do not shun those people involved in dog whistle politics only serves to weaken our position against OF&F.

Our position against OF&F? You've seemed rather apologetic about it in every thread.

 

[JFrame]

There were many issues with the last administration which deserved the kind of coverage which OF&F received, but did not get.

So -- now we're back to "Bush's fault"?

It's funny that you seem to be the self-appointed Thread Police here, yet bring Dubya into a discussion of Holder and OF&F.

There has been continuing coverage by the news services of OF&F,

I must be missing the OF&F Coverage Channel that you've found...


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[JFrame]

Our position against OF&F? You've seemed rather apologetic about it in every thread.

Kind'a reminds me of that old joke about the Lone Ranger and Tonto.

The Lone Ranger and Tonto find themselves surrounded by hundreds of hostile Indians.

The Lone Ranger turns to Tonto and says, "What do we do now, Tonto?"

Tonto replies, "What do you mean 'we,' Paleface?"


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[we are not amused]

No, it was an issue before the OF&F story broke. That was the point of the cited NYTimes Holder article, that it has been going on for years . The claim that Holder discounted OF&F criticism as solely being caused by racists is a strawman, since that is completely divorced from the reality as demonstrated by the article.

Do we actually have Holder on record as being in support of civil liability for gun owners due to theft?


It was merely a commentary on the nature of the current reporting system. A post on the opposing side responding to a denial with citations would get Reported into oblivion.

The point that OF&F was being silenced by the media is rather odd, given that CBS was one of the first to report it.

I seem to remember when this story first broke, some,(not to mention any names, but you know who I mean) attempted to dismiss it as a "Faux" News story.
Of the major News Networks, only Fox News and CBS have covered the story in any detail. If you don't believe me, use google and check.
Despite the fact that criminal laws were broken and we have an incompetent and corrupt person sitting as Attorney General, the News Media is downplaying the story. Just pretend, that this had happened under President Bush and the Attorney General was John Ashcroft? Do you really think the News Media would be soft pedaling the story then?

This story ought to be bigger than Watergate, because we had agents of the American Government aiding and abetting the smuggling of weapons into a friendly country, to known criminals involved in international drug trading, in contravention of numerous laws. The Attorney General, is refusing to turnover key e-mails and documents, and claims that he is not subject to Congressional oversight.

 

[Neverwinter]

pubulius...Yes. The accusations of racism remind me of a lazy student claiming that he's failing because the teacher doesn't like him.

All political figures have enemies. The wise path is to not give them anything to lock onto.

That hasn't prevented people from locking onto non-existent racially charged issues. If your position as a moderator allows you to look at removed posts, you could see the citations for those examples.

People just don't seem to realize that it's not Holder playing the race card in the NYTimes article. That was played a long time ago, and before the administration was even instated.

Our position against OF&F? You've seemed rather apologetic about it in every thread.

That's a good question. Are you with my position on having Issa and Grassley complete their investigation to uncover any wrongdoing in this case?

People seem to be falling into the mistake that because a person refuses to play along with the fictitious narrative that an insignificant racial component exists for the attacks on the administration(OF&F or otherwise), then they support OF&F. I have made a reasonable effort to clarify this over the course of several posts, so further misunderstandings are a failing on the part of the reader.

It's funny that you seem to be the self-appointed Thread Police here, yet bring Dubya into a discussion of Holder and OF&F.

Your post was the one to bring up Republican administrations where scandals would be continuously trumpeted to the level of OF&F. I was responding with a recent counterexample.
I'm not the only one to be mentioning it either. See the following:

Just pretend, that this had happened under President Bush and the Attorney General was John Ashcroft? Do you really think the News Media would be soft pedaling the story then?

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[JFrame]

Your post was the one to bring up Republican administrations where scandals would be continuously trumpeted to the level of OF&F. I was responding with a recent counterexample.

The context of my statement had OF&F specifically in mind. Yours had nothing to do with OF&F.

I'm not the only one to be mentioning it either. See the following:

In that case, I suggest you stop trying to be such a Thread Policeman and just go with the flow.


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[Ky Larry]

A.G.Holder reminds me of a magician. A magician will get you to focus on one hand while the other hand does the trick. By claiming racism, he's trying to focus attention away from OF&F. I remember reading a quote that said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I believe in this case, it should read "Crying racism is the last refuge of A.G. Holder." Let us not forget what started OF&F. Obama, Holder, Billary, Fineswine, Chucky, and the Brady Bunch want our guns and will stop at nothing to get them.

 

[Neverwinter]

Of the major News Networks, only Fox News and CBS have covered the story in any detail. If you don't believe me, use google and check.

Why is broadcast media singled out here? Why are we limiting the discussion to the greatest participants in the 24 hour news cycle? Or is it the only one that supports the fiction that the media isn't covering the story?

Despite the fact that criminal laws were broken and we have an incompetent and corrupt person sitting as Attorney General, the News Media is downplaying the story. Just pretend, that this had happened under President Bush and the Attorney General was John Ashcroft? Do you really think the News Media would be soft pedaling the story then?

The fact that Ashcroft was used as an example here instead of Gonzales suggest s that soft pedaling had occurred.

The context of my statement had OF&F specifically in mind. Yours had nothing to do with OF&F.

The statement had the claim that a scandal like OF&F would be trumpeted by the media if it were a Republican administration. Hiding behind the idea that the other scandals were not OF&F doesn't invalidate the counterexample.

A.G.Holder reminds me of a magician. A magician will get you to focus on one hand while the other hand does the trick. By claiming racism, he's trying to focus attention away from OF&F. I remember reading a quote that said "Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel." I believe in this case, it should read "Crying racism is the last refuge of A.G. Holder."

There has been more coverage by the RTP media outlets than the one interview in the NYTimes, oddly enough. [quote ]Let us not forget what started OF&F. Obama, Holder, Billary, Fineswine, Chucky, and the Brady Bunch want our guns and will stop at nothing to get them.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that all of those people were involved with OF&F?

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[jerkface11]

Are you saying that all of those people were involved with OF&F?

Pratt referred to a proposal from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in which dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas would be required to report multiple sales to the same person of certain kinds of rifles.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html#ixzz1imwIPI2v

 

[Carl N. Brown]

This story ought to be bigger than Watergate, because we had agents of the American Government aiding and abetting the smuggling of weapons into a friendly country, to known criminals involved in international drug trading, in contravention of numerous laws.

Uh, "smuggling of weapons" and "international drug trading" sounds more like Iran-Contra than like Watergate.

 

[JFrame]

The statement had the claim that a scandal like OF&F would be trumpeted by the media if it were a Republican administration.

Do you deny that this is the case?

Still trying to be a thread cop, eh?

Hiding behind the idea that the other scandals were not OF&F doesn't invalidate the counterexample.

Hiding?

The contiguity of OF&F being a major crime perpetrated by the Obama administration; that the crime was executed in an effort to inspire a new push for gun control; that AG Holder claimed racism as a compelling reason for why some are making OF&F such an issue; and that the media perpetuates whatever myths the Obama administration wants to propagate, are all contextually relevant.

You're the one that seems to be somewhat out of step.


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[Carl N. Brown]

dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas would be required to report multiple sales to the same person of certain kinds of rifles.

Demand Letter 3.

Well, Mike Detty, Tucson AZ dealer involved in Wide Receiver 2006-2007, and the "cooperating FFLs" in the Phoenix Operation Fast & Furious 2009-2010reported suspicious straw buyers to ATF, only to be told by ATF to keep on selling to the suspected cartel buyers.

[¿rhetorical]With ATF telling dealers to keep on selling when the dealers voluntarily outted suspected straw buyers, requiring dealers to report suspected straw purchases to ATF will fix what problem about Gunwalking?[/rhetorical?]

The real problem with Gunwalking was ATF telling dealers to make multiple sales when the dealers were suspicious of the purchasers. Demand Letter 3 ought to be called Fig Leaf 3.

 

[LongTimeGone]

...

person refuses to play along with the fictitious narrative that an insignificant racial component exists for the attacks on the administration

...

Yep, we are all Raaaacist, so anything we say is invalid.

 

[armarsh]

Uh, "smuggling of weapons" and "international drug trading" sounds more like Iran-Contra than like Watergate.

Iran-Contra? Just the fact that you know who Oliver North is is a strong example of the media choosing sides.

Iran-Contra resulted in jail time for some involved. I really look forward to the same standard to be applied to O F&F.

 

[jerkface11]

Iran Contra was the US government choosing sides in an internal conflict. Interesting analogy.

 

[Neverwinter]

Pratt referred to a proposal from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) in which dealers in Arizona, California, New Mexico and Texas would be required to report multiple sales to the same person of certain kinds of rifles.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1392132/Obama-eyeing-gun-control-radar.html#ixzz1imwIPI2v

The article link at most has a mention of the Sarah Brady(who is such an honest gun lobbyist ) under the radar quote.
That does not answer the question. Do you think that all of those mentioned people were involved in orchestrating OF&F?

Do you deny that this is the case?

Hiding?

The contiguity of OF&F being a major crime perpetrated by the Obama administration; that the crime was executed in an effort to inspire a new push for gun control; that AG Holder claimed racism as a compelling reason for why some are making OF&F such an issue; and that the media perpetuates whatever myths the Obama administration wants to propagate, are all contextually relevant.

The hiding was the refusal of the counterexample to the claim that if this had been a Republican administration, the media would have been all over it to the same level that FNC has. The counterexample just happened to be the last administration and was denied despite the willingness of the claimant to put all of the previous Republican administrations on the line. So, no, the current media coverage of OF&F is not uncharacteristic of scandals of recent political history.


A more telling point was another post which claimed that if Bush and Ashcroft had been in a similarly questionable position, the media would have been all over it. This further serves to disprove the earlier claim, since Gonzales was completely ignored despite being an example of an AG in a questionable position from that same administration. Either that story was softpedaled, or the poster in question was so far divorced from actual media coverage that they never got the message. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

......

Yep, we are all Raaaacist, so anything we say is invalid.

A banal expression of a position which has already been thoroughly debunked earlier in the thread.

The staunch denial of the support by racists for attacks on the Obama administration(which carries to the OF&F scandal) has numerous, citable counterexamples. The people who persist in the belief that there are no racists attacking the administration are as dishonest as the people who believe that Holder could never be involved with OF&F. It's about as honest as the Persian statesman who claimed the non-existence of a specific demographic in his country.

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[danez71]

Iran-Contra? Just the fact that you know who Oliver North is is a strong example of the media choosing sides.

Funny.... he never mentioned Oliver North in his post.

 

[JFrame]

So, no, the current media coverage of OF&F is not uncharacteristic of scandals of recent political history.

Sorry -- you are simply delusional in a viewing-world-through-leftist-prism sort of way. There's no way around it...

A more telling point was another post which claimed that if Bush and Ashcroft had been in a similarly questionable position, the media would have been all over it. This further serves to disprove the earlier claim, since Gonzales was completely ignored despite being an example of an AG in a questionable position from that same administration. Either that story was softpedaled, or the poster in question was so far divorced from actual media coverage that they never got the message. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.

At this point, I'm not even going to bother to track back through the litany of posts to see what you're even talking about. But if you're referring to Operation Wide Receiver, that comparison has already been thoroughly addressed and discredited.


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[LongTimeGone]

Purported racism will be increasingly front and center as soon as a GOP nominee is selected.
Neverwinter gives but a small glimpse of the vitriol to follow.

No matter, the Dept of Homeland Security has his back.

http://www.theatlanticwire.com/tech...onitoring-drudge-report-new-york-times/47300/

 

[we are not amused]

The article link at most has a mention of the Sarah Brady(who is such an honest gun lobbyist ) under the radar quote.
That does not answer the question. Do you think that all of those mentioned people were involved in orchestrating OF&F?





The hiding was the refusal of the counterexample to the claim that if this had been a Republican administration, the media would have been all over it to the same level that FNC has. The counterexample just happened to be the last administration and was denied despite the willingness of the claimant to put all of the previous Republican administrations on the line. So, no, the current media coverage of OF&F is not uncharacteristic of scandals of recent political history.


A more telling point was another post which claimed that if Bush and Ashcroft had been in a similarly questionable position, the media would have been all over it. This further serves to disprove the earlier claim, since Gonzales was completely ignored despite being an example of an AG in a questionable position from that same administration. Either that story was softpedaled, or the poster in question was so far divorced from actual media coverage that they never got the message. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and go with the former.




A banal expression of a position which has already been thoroughly debunked earlier in the thread.

The staunch denial of the support by racists for attacks on the Obama administration(which carries to the OF&F scandal) has numerous, citable counterexamples. The people who persist in the belief that there are no racists attacking the administration are as dishonest as the people who believe that Holder could never be involved with OF&F. It's about as honest as the Persian statesman who claimed the non-existence of a specific demographic in his country.

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Since Neverwinter is accusing people on this site of being racist, perhaps it is time for this thread to be closed.
Otherwise, I am going to respond to that partisan hack.

 

[Neverwinter]

Sorry -- you are simply delusional in a viewing-world-through-leftist-prism sort of way. There's no way around it...

The unsubstantiated denial of the example mentioned in the quoted post has been noted.

At this point, I'm not even going to bother to track back through the litany of posts to see what you're even talking about. But if you're referring to Operation Wide Receiver, that comparison has already been thoroughly addressed and discredited.

The bipartisan pressure on Gonzales to resign was not related to Operation Wide Receiver. But thank you for further adding to the body of evidence regarding a lack of coverage regarding the scandals of the Gonzales term. If the Congressional investigation of OF&F closes with a poor result for Holder, he should similarly resign.

Since Neverwinter is accusing people on this site of being racist, perhaps it is time for this thread to be closed.

That statement does not match any of my posts here. I have not accused people on this site of being racist. All I have done is to dispel the fiction of Holder accusing all of the OF&F attacks as being racist as well as the fiction that there are no racists attacking the Obama administration over OF&F.

 

[jerkface11]

All I have done is to dispel the fiction of Holder accusing all of the OF&F attacks as being racist as well as the fiction that there are no racists attacking the Obama administration over OF&F.

It doesn't matter if the people attacking him over fast and furious are still wearing their klan robes he's still GUILTY.

 

[JFrame]

The unsubstantiated denial of the example mentioned in the quoted post has been noted.

Your reference to every substantiation as being unsubstantiated because you say so is duly noted.

By the way -- interesting lack of denial on your part as to your leftist world-view...

The bipartisan pressure on Gonzales to resign was not related to Operation Wide Receiver. But thank you for further adding to the body of evidence regarding a lack of coverage regarding the scandals of the Gonzales term. If the Congressional investigation of OF&F closes with a poor result for Holder, he should similarly resign.

In other words, previous GOP AG's took bipartisan heat, while Democrats circle their wagons around their AG in the face of outrageous conduct...That also is duly noted.


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[Davek1977]

I gotta agree with Jerkface here....although I dispise racism, it doesn't matter the slightest if some of the complaints against Holder come from those holding racist views. The fact of the matter is, regardless of how you feel about race, the man is most likely guilty, and at the very least refusing to cooperate with Congressional investigations (aka obstruction of justice....ironic coming from the JUSTICE Dept!). It doesn't matter who are making these claims, because they are factual. Our justice department was a key facilitator in arming Mexican drug cartels. That deserves outrage regardless of skin color. The fact that Holder attempted to blame the fallout on race...or at least partially on race...is irrelevant. It just hows his desperation, but the truth of the matter is, even if some of the criticism of his operations come from those with racist beliefs....the criticisms themselves are largely valid. Rather than address the validity of that criticism, he attempts to deflect it with the race card....which, to me, speaks volumes about the man's character...or lack thereof.


As far as racism goes....How is it not racist against Mexican citizens as a whole to supply criminals with guns that will be used against them in all likelihood? IMO, the most vile racism in the OFF controversy is firmly rooted in the ATF, who facilitated weapon sales to criminals knowing they would most likely end up being used south of our border.

 

[Deanimator]

As far as racism goes....How is it not racist against Mexican citizens as a whole to supply criminals with guns that will be used against them in all likelihood? IMO, the most vile racism in the OFF controversy is firmly rooted in the ATF, who facilitated weapon sales to criminals knowing they would moost likely end up being used south of our boarder.

And speaking of racism, I seem to remember the then BATF putting on a WHITES ONLY function called the "Good Old Boys Roundup". I also seem to remember millions of dollars in settlements to the Black employees of the BATF. Something about a "pattern and practice of racial discrimination and harassment".

The BATFE is dirty to the core. Those who defend it only dirty themselves.