Aiming for groin

[Renigeid]

My only thought is shoot to stop the threat, however much that takes.

 

[rocky branch]

Quote:
Quote:
We were taught to finish a guy off with a groin shot to bleed him out.

Who is we?

That would be the GBA.


(Guild of Bloodthirsty Assassins.)

They're like ninjas, but ... thirstier.

-Sam

Actually it was in the combat orientation course, 5th Special Forces on Hon Tre Island in 1968 at the beginning of my two tours.

 

[Sam1911]

Actually it was in the combat orientation course, 5th Special Forces on Hon Tre Island in 1968 at the beginning of my two tours.

So the 5th Special Forces instructed you to "bleed a guy out" rather than just killing him as quickly as possible? Sounds like an odd strategy. What if he shoots you while he's bleeding out? Or pulls the pin on his grenade if he's dying anyway.

Either way, not applicable to civilian, LEO, (or military, really) defensive shooting. Shoot to stop the threat. Not "to kill" or "to wound" or "to watch a man bleed."

Bleeding out is not a terribly quick way to stop a threat. And "finishing a man off" beyond the cesation of the threat is frowned upon. Here, and in court.

-Sam

P.S. -- Thank you for your years of service!

 

[wrs840]

I'm not pushing any particular position, but I don't know that I give more creedence to the opinion of a surgeon that says "pelvic shots are not very effective" over a career LEO/firearms instructor who says "the pelvis a great place to put the first one".

Les

 

[bababooey32]

FYI - the brachial artery is the arm, not the leg. I'm sure you were thinking of the femoral artery.

"Groin" would be the wrong target area. "Pelvic complex" might be a better aiming concept. Misses high would be going towards COM. Misses low would hit legs or just miss.

Not sure how I feel about tis. If I have the wherewithal to pick my spot in such a situation, I think I'll take the head/CNS shot before pelvis. Just becasue he can't walk doesn't mean he can't shoot.

 

[CWL]

We have a member here, retired LEO who took a slug to his hip (I think it was a .45ACP)- messed him up for life. Years of surgeries, pain, mobility problems. All of this is ongoing and years after the fact.

But that bullet didn't stop him from putting the BG down with his own pistol at the instant of the gun battle.

The only legitimate defensive firing into a BG's pelvic area is if you are having to zipper your shots upwards due to extreme proximity of your attacker during your draw. The goal is still to "walk" your shots upwards to end up firing into COM.

I doubt that any of the "pro-groin" shooters here have ever taken any firearms training courses, nor have ever shot at moving targets before -let alone while being shot at. If you did, you'd realize that nobody stands there while you are trying to shoot them. Shoot for the biggest target, COM, don't try to pull any TV moves.

 

[CWL]

Actually it was in the combat orientation course, 5th Special Forces on Hon Tre Island in 1968 at the beginning of my two tours.

"beginning of my two tours" -Strange, one of the requisites to qualify, you need to have to already served "in country" in Vietnam.

 

[Cosmoline]

But that bullet didn't stop him from putting the BG down with his own pistol at the instant of the gun battle.

I was going to go into details about upper chest organs vs. mere bones, but that sums it up nicely. Don't shoot for the hip unless the guy's a ninja in ceramic plates.

No...actually, you shoot to stop the threat.

You're taking that out of context, as many many people do. The idea behind "shoot to stop" is that you shoot UNTIL they are stopped. Once they are stopped and no longer present an imminent threat of deadly force you have no justification in executing a coup de gras.

THIS DOES NOT MEAN that you are supposed to shoot hips, feet, hands, etc. in some misguided attempt to "stop" the attacker without killing him. Make no mistake, you are using DEADLY force and you ought not to be using it at all unless you're faced with imminent and unlawful deadly force. In other words--kill or be killed. Do not shoot to wound or trip or intimidate or warn or any other dangerous habits.

 

[JMusic]

Well said Cos.



Jim

 

[mesinge2]

First, I greatly prefer the term

Pelvic complex

to groin shot. Thanks, bababooey.

Secondly, I read all of the posts for it and against it, and I believe there are points to be made for both.

Personally, I adhere to COM and I will continue to; but I wonder how relivant aiming for COM or the "Pelvic complex" is in the heat of the moment at close range. For example, I had to draw my weapon in defense and the range could not have been more than 3 feet(http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=438745).

I remember the gun aiming directly at the side of his head and, as he turned, his face.

My point is I did not have time to think, "Hmmm, should I aim for his groin, or chest, or hand, or the laces on his shoes, etc." I simply reacted to the threat.

 

[JMusic]

Thats why you zipper up. For those that that don't know it is a constant firingslow swing upward of the pistol. ususally 3-4 shots.



Jim

 

[rocky branch]

"beginning of my two tours" -Strange, one of the requisites to qualify, you need to have to already served "in country" in Vietnam.

You sure got that wrong. Where in the world did you hear something that dumb?

I did have a year and a half SF service under my belt at the time, though.
SFTG and 6th group.

Lots of guys try that sharpshooting nonesense, don't bother me.
I only did 4 years, but a lot of skeptics never did 4 minutes.

 

[Templar223]

The groin is a poor choice if you want to stop someone. Contrary to gun magazine myths people do manage to remain mobile with broken pelvises, I've spoken to a few physicians about that.

There are two ways to quickly stop someone from taking hostile action against you, a central nervous system hit and exsanguination. The body does a real good job of protecting the vulnerable spots of the central nervous system and making reliable hits there is difficult. This brings us to exsanguination, dropping the blood pressure fast enough that the attacker rapidly loses consciousness. The most reliable way to do that is to hit the blood rich internal organs in the thoractic region. This also just happens to be center of mass.

The brachial artery in the groin area is a pretty small target, chattering a pelvis to the point that it immobilizes someone is a very lucky shot with a handgun round and a tricky proposition with a rifle.

COM first, then head is still the most reliable way to stop a fight.

If you're facing a blunt-force instrument or an edged weapon, the pelvis is the best place to shoot.

As an added bonus, you can walk the rounds right up the bad guy.

I don't know where you got what you're stating Jeff, but it's directly in opposition to what I've been taught by Farnam, Ayoob, Sullivan and Rogers in addition to other instructors not-so-well known.

Your physician friends might have anecdotal stories, but you can come up with anecdotal stories for about anything.

John

 

[archigos]

I know a woman who stopped a rape this way. She was rewarded for it by having her pistol permit revoked. Given, it was in New York.

 

[Jeff White]

I don't know where you got what you're stating Jeff, but it's directly in opposition to what I've been taught by Farnam, Ayoob, Sullivan and Rogers in addition to other instructors not-so-well known.

The writings of Dr Martin Fackler, the writing and extensive conversation with with Dr Gary Roberts, conversations with several emergency room physicians over a 22 year police career, personal observation of many victims who suffered from fractured pelvises who were not incapacitated.

Of the instructors you list I have only personally trained with Pat Rogers, and I have trained extensively with him, 5 classes, hours of personal conversation, email exchanges and shared moderator duties with him on other forums. Not once do I recall him teaching or advocating a pelvic shot. I have also trained with Louis Awerbuck and he never recommended a pelvic shot in that class. I have extensive law enforcement and military training and never once has any instructor advocated a pelvic shot or taught it on the range. I have been training and conducting training for more then 35 years now and I have never seen a pelvic shot advocated except in a magazine article or on an internet forum.

I draw my opinion from what I have learned over a good part of my lifetime.

 

[sacp81170a]

Good debate, lots of good points. John Farnam is an advocate of the "zipper" technique, i.e. at close range, start shooting as soon as the muzzle of your handgun is on something worth shooting and continue shooting as you move it up to the COM/thorax. However, even he will tell you it's not about the pelvis being a more effective target than the head/thorax, it's about getting shots on target as quickly as possible. He also makes the point that you should train to be able to make a brain stem shot when required. There are many different considerations to take into account, but when you want someone to quit what they're doing without being able to do anything else, the brain stem is the target of choice.

 

[weisse52]

Thats why you zipper up. For those that that don't know it is a constant firingslow swing upward of the pistol. ususally 3-4 shots.

I took a firearms course in Ohio years ago that suggested this method. The issue for me was it was suggested as "the" method for all shooting.

John Farnam is an advocate of the "zipper" technique, i.e. at close range, start shooting as soon as the muzzle of your handgun is on something worth shooting and continue shooting as you move it up to the COM/thorax.

This really puts it into context. At close range it makes sense, otherwise it is just "spray and pray"

I do agree, good debate.

 

[Boba Fett]

Just a question.

From what I have read in other articles and such, when the adrenaline and all gets going, it seems that the human body will continue to function oblivious to the fact that it has been damaged. Unless of course there has been a catastrophic hit to vital areas, the loss of blood causes them to pass out or expire, or the area shot is an area they are immediately attempting to use and realize they cannot (i.e. a hand or leg). The last not necessarily incapacitating them but simply limiting them or shocking them when they realize they've been hit.

Do I have that right?


Now, I have no idea if that would apply to the groin area, and I certainly wouldn't volunteer to find out. But it seems that such a groin shot might not end the fight.

What do you all think?

 

[coloradokevin]

Read a few years back of a new drill, like the two to the chest one to the head thing, but this had you fire to the groin area. Anyone have info or thoughts on this. (Sorry for the lack of question mark, the wife has the keyboard set in espanol and cant find the darn thing)

I'll preface my response with a bit of background on how we were trained in my department. We weren't ever really trained with the "two to the chest one to the head" drill around here. Our training was more oriented around the idea that you need to shoot towards the goal of solving the problem.

In talking with some of our older guys, the training we had a few decades ago consisted of drawing, firing two shots, then reholstering the weapon (some of you can probably already see where this is going). Anyway, in time the department discovered that officers would sometimes do this in actual shootings, and would holster their weapon while the threat was still present! It sounds ridiculous, but these things can become a matter of habit if they are done often enough in the same manner.

As such, our training has evolved to the point that we don't really have any specific order/number of shots that we are taught to fire in the course of an attack. During training/qualification the range officer will simply state instructions before each string is fired (ie: "When the bad guy faces, draw your weapon, fire 4 shots to the body and two to the head. Or, "When the threat appears fire two shots to the body, conduct a tactical reload, and fire two more shots to the body). The philosophy seems to be that if you vary the shot count and such, the officer will be more likely to engage the target without falling into a "routine" of stopping before the threat is gone.

A center of mass shot (or two, or three) is a good place to start, simply because it is the easiest target. The head is a harder target to hit, but also contains the body's "CPU". The pelvic girdle probably won't completely incapacitate the attacker immediately, but can certainly "remove their wheels".

We were certainly taught to include the pelvic girdle as a viable target, and our old qualification targets actually had a scoring zone for the pelvic girdle area. Again, we weren't really trained to fire a shot to that area at a specific time, but rather to remember that we need to find something that works (ie: if the head and body haven't dropped the bad guy, try the pelvic girdle). I might not be doing the best job of articulating this training philosophy, but I'll summarize it as: "When in doubt, DO SOMETHING!"

 

[Templar223]

Of the instructors you list I have only personally trained with Pat Rogers, and I have trained extensively with him, 5 classes, hours of personal conversation, email exchanges and shared moderator duties with him on other forums. Not once do I recall him teaching or advocating a pelvic shot.

I've been to a lot of courses over the last few years, including Pat Rogers this spring.

As I recall, the "failure to stop" drill was executed starting either at the groin for the first shot and walking the rounds up, or at the chest and finishing in the head, shooter's option.

I don't think Pat would have advocating a FTS drill beginning at the pelvis for no good reason.

If I'm mixing up Pat's coursework with some of these others, my apologies to Pat.

John

 

[akodo]

I have heard this as a technique to use with a shotgun loaded with buck.

Remember, a person on full adrenilin dump or on crystal meth is not going to feel pain.

It's a biological imperative. You need your testicles to reproduce, but intact testicles on a dead body won't do anything. Normally, pain is the body's way of saying 'don't do that' to avoid dangerous and unhealthy things. (You want to avoid a guy who is going to kick you in the nuts) However, if in a very dire fight or flight situation, that pain would debilitate you, it is a huge flaw and vunerability.

Instead the body will ignore that pain...and provide you with a spare in the hopes that whatever mangles your groin region will not manage to mangle BOTH you testicles.

Psychologically, it may come into play if you were ever to get in a situation where the attacker stopped, but didn't flee, and began to challenge your 'guts' saying 'you won't shoot me!'


And, as many others have said, you knock out the pelvis they will probably fall to the ground but their brain, eyes, arms, and fingers are all still going to be working, so if they have a gun of their own, they are still a very real threat.

 

[rondog]

Personally, if I have to shoot someone to defend myself, I think I'm gonna be so freaked out and adrenaline-pumped that I'm just gonna try to hit him the best I can, in the biggest area I can. Which would be COM, in my view. I just can't forsee having the time to get fancy with pelvis shots, head shots, "zippering" shots, 2 to the chest & 1 to the head, etc. I expect I'll be screaming like a little girl and blasting away between his armpits until he hits the ground.

 

[middy]

Personally, if I have to shoot someone to defend myself, I think I'm gonna be so freaked out and adrenaline-pumped that I'm just gonna try to hit him the best I can, in the biggest area I can. Which would be COM, in my view. I just can't forsee having the time to get fancy with pelvis shots, head shots, "zippering" shots, 2 to the chest & 1 to the head, etc. I expect I'll be screaming like a little girl and blasting away between his armpits until he hits the ground.

This.

 

[Al Thompson]

That.

The BG has body armor or is zonked out of his mind on drugs. Why wouldn't you switch targets if CM isn't working? Groin/pelvis, thighs, what ever is visible and viable gets shot (if CM is ineffective) until the attack ceases.

 

[KBT1911]

I do a "zipper" drill where I start at pelvic level and shoot 5 shots, ending at head level with the target about 5yds away. I shoot rapidly and I combine it with reloading and regular center-mass shots to mix things up a bit. I follow the natural motion of bringing a weapon up and let the recoil help move to the next level. The groin is a target but not the total focus. Under stress there is a good chance shots will go squirrely but there is plenty of good fight stopping targets along the line.