AK red dot setup

[StorkPatrol]

I'm looking into putting some sort of red dot optic on my AK. It seems there are several ways to mount a sight on the AK. It can be located over the receiver using a mount that attaches to the side rail, or it can be mounted further forward on an accessory rail that replaces the hand guard. There seems to be some good solutions out there for either type of setup.

My question is, what location for the scope is better? What are the advantages and drawbacks for a red dot over the receiver vs. attached to the hand guard? What gives a better field of view? It seems to me that having the optic closer to your face would make it easier to keep the dot in your field of view, but having it farther forward would allow you to have a more comfortable cheek weld and maybe a better overall field of view.

Am I thinking right, or am I full of crap? I have very little experience shooting with a 1x power optic. This is all a big experiment for me.

--Stork

 

[DMK]

It depends on what you want.

Putting the optic on the siderail: The advantages are it's easy to do. Low cost. Easy to change optics. Balance is good. The disadvantages are it puts the optic very high or you will have to remove the optic from the rail every time you clean the rifle.

Putting the optic on a flip up Beryl rail (Krebs, TWS, etc): The advantages are it's a standard rail so you can use a multitude of available rings to get the height you want. You can mount the optic very low. Depending on your optic's length, you can move the optic a few inches forward or back to get optimum eye relief. Balance is good. A rear peep sight is an option. Disadvantages: It still does not put a red dot low enough to co-witness.

Putting the optic over the gas tube: The advantages with an Ultimak rail you can mount a red dot low enough to co-witness with irons. Does not interfere with removal of the top cover. Allows you to use the original iron sight. Gives you a wide field of view including the side of your dominant eye (shooting with both eyes open). Allows use of Tech-Sights rear aperture. Disadvantages include more weight out front, throws the balance off a little. Can only be used with a red dot or long eye relief (pistol or scout) optic. There are many mounts available and most are crap. Most mounts are too high.


I use all three of these. I like the Beryl rail (mine's a TWS) for a magnified optic (rifle scope) or a red dot if you don't care about co-witness, the Ultimak for a red dot (allows co witness), and the siderail if you just want to mount a scope or red dot occasionally or wish to keep a more classic AK look.

 

[sharkhunter2018]

I've got the Ultimak rail on my AK and I would say it's the best mount for the gas tube option. I have an Aimpoint Comp ML3 on mine which adds quite a bit of weight to the front, which doesn't bother me too much. Should you go with that, something along the lines of the Aimpoint Micro will cut down on the weight considerably.

Don't have experience with the first two options that DMK mentioned. With that said, he's pretty much spot on with the gas tube mount.

 

[Coronach]

DMK is dead on, those are your options, and those are the advantages and disadvantages of each. I would add that the TWS/Beryl/KKrebs style rail also adds a step to your malfunction clearance drill if you have top remove the dustcover. Not a dealbreaker, but something to consider.

If you're mounting a red dot, I see no reason not to use the Ultimak setup, unless you're using a heavy optic. Aimpoint Micro + Ultimak = WIN. It really does work very, very, very well.

Mike

 

[mshootnit]

Kobra KOBRA KOBRA KOBRA

 

[briansmithwins]

Kobra KOBRA KOBRA KOBRA

I had the Kobra. Here in Oregon it rains a lot. If you get rain on the emitter the image in the window Christmas-trees, making the sight useless.

I got a PK-23 from eastwave.com

It's high enough that I can strip the rifle without removing it and loseing zero, but is still pretty low. All that for $185 shipped. BSW

 

[mshootnit]

OK I'll add info to back up my opinion. I have a Kobra that I have had on 5 AK-47's now ranging from Romanian to Bulgarian to Russian and in three different calibers. The Kobra is completely parallax free. The dot is 1.8 moa yielding a perfect size. The Kobra looks awesome and is authentic to the country of origin for the platform. The Kobra was approved for use by Kalashnikov himself. The Kobra is waterproof and shockproof. With the new Lithium batteries it is very light. The side mount system allows you a throw lever return to iron sights if necessary. When remounted properly comes back to zero pretty well.
Are there downsides? Yes as with everything. The lense is tinted and does not work well in low light situations (this can be overcome to some extent by utilizing the Bindon concept.) The Kobra does not have an automatic "off" should you forget to turn it off you are out of luck. Also unless you read Russian you will have to remember what the windage and elevation adjustments do. Other than that its pretty damn good.
BTW I have a Leupold that is useless in the rain too.

 

[DMK]

The Kobra is completely parallax free. ... The Kobra looks awesome and is authentic to the country of origin for the platform.... The Kobra is waterproof and shockproof. With the new Lithium batteries it is very light. The side mount system allows you a throw lever return to iron sights if necessary. When remounted properly comes back to zero pretty well.

You could say these things about a lot of sights. The Kobra seems to be a decent sight, but it is certainly not unique in its features.

 

[inherentical]

I had the Kobra. Here in Oregon it rains a lot. If you get rain on the emitter the image in the window Christmas-trees, making the sight useless.

The Aimpoint/Ultimak combo handles the rain pretty well.

 

[StorkPatrol]

Wow, great info and opinions! There are good options for both receiver mounted and hand guard mounted setups. If i decide to go receiver mounted, I am liking the PK series scopes that I see on Eastwave and Kalinka. If I go for a hand guard mount, the Utilimak with a "micro" sized optic seems like the best bet. There is a Bushnell red dot that I have seen posts about for this application. I forget the exact model number. (TRS-25 ?)Does anybody have an opinion on that one?

I guess I need to handle a few rifles with different style mounts to see what I feel most comfortable with.

Thanks again. --Stork

 

[briansmithwins]

If you're in the PDX area come by some time and try out the AK.

BSW

 

[Girodin]

DMK is dead on, those are your options

One other option is the LaRue Iron dot http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/laruetacticalak-irondot/laruetacticalak-irondot.html

Although I am not sure if they are back in production at the moment, so it might be less of an option right now but there is always the used market.

I do not like the side mounts. Most (if not all) that I have seen/used put the optic too high for my liking.

An aimpoint micro on a ultimak rail is the creme de la creme. A micro is light enough that that weight being out front really isn't much of a factor. The micro also has the other things I like in a red dot, it is very durable and has a long battery life.

 

[DMK]

One other option is the LaRue Iron dot http://www.laruetactical.com/pics/la...k-irondot.html

Although I am not sure if they are back in production at the moment, so it might be less of an option right now but there is always the used market.

I've been lusting for one of those. They are out of production now and next to impossible to find used. From what I gather, the optic itself was changed and the mount no longer worked with the new design, so Larue is back to the drawing board. Hopefully they will have something this spring or summer.

 

[mshootnit]

I prefer the optic over the receiver because it enables a better field of view through the optic and for me makes two eyes open aiming easier. The Kobra is pretty low and centered over the bore which the PK sights are not. Also the PK sights are not parallax free. If I were dead set on an American red dot, I would go with the Aimpoint on a BPO2 mount with the rail lowered and centered. I lowered a BP02 rail once but not to the extent that it is possible if you only want to mount a red dot and not a two ring setup. I have seen excellent internet discussions on the Aimpoint/ lowered BP02 setup. I don't like the handguard or gas tube setups because the Russians stay away from them and I figure they would have spent more time evaluating the best way to mount optics on the rifle than about anyone else. I also kindof like mine to be all Russian if possible. I really don't like red dots subtending more than 2 moa.

 

[Coronach]

I have an Irondot that I have just rotated out of service on my "serious" AK and moved to my plinker.

I think it is a very good optic for a fun gun, but not acceptable for use on a defensive weapon. The problem is the optic itself, not the mount. Hopefully, the redesign of the optic will improve the overall setup. I'm unimpressed with the battery life and the method of changing it is sub-optimal.

Mike

 

[mshootnit]

I have to disagree with DMK that the Kobra is not unique in its features and since he (or she) quoted my statement I would ask him (or her) to name another sight which is all these things:

1. Russian
2. Approved for use on the weapon by M. Kalashnikov
3. Parallax free
4. Multiple reticles
5. Quick detach
6. Black finish to match the rifle
7. Waterproof
8. Smells like Vodka
A very similar sight is the C-more sight which is a competition speed sight used in pistol competition. If its fast enough for that game its fast enough for me. Come to think of it that one would also be good on a BP02.
The KVAR04s is also a nice side mount but not quite as low as far as I can tell. I also did not have the best luck with it but that may have been due to the alignment of the side rail. About the best side rail was the Molot Vepr picatinny rail mount but I can't find one for sail now and they were 160 when you could find them.

 

[boricua9mm]

I have an Irondot that I have just rotated out of service on my "serious" AK and moved to my plinker.

I think it is a very good optic for a fun gun, but not acceptable for use on a defensive weapon. The problem is the optic itself, not the mount. Hopefully, the redesign of the optic will improve the overall setup. I'm unimpressed with the battery life and the method of changing it is sub-optimal.

I guess I have to ask what your complaints are? I have heard many people bash the Fastfire, claiming that it does not respond well in low light situations and I have found that to be a somewhat inaccurate judgment. Upon further examination, all of the people making this claim were using the optic mounted in the LaRue Irondot mount. I have found that the Burris fastfire, on it's own, responds pretty darn well to low-light situations, and even hangs in there when using a light. In fact, I got so tired of hearing it that I made this video to show otherwise. The fact of the matter is the LaRue Irondot blacks the light sensor from receiving omni-directional light, and instead only allows it to receive light directly from the front. This causes problems that are not present when running the Fastfire by itself.

As for battery life, again, I am unsure of the complaints. I guess if you were using it on a true self-defense or SHTF rifle, then you would have to leave the optic turned on 24-7. That would probably require a good amount of battery swaps. However, if the optic is turned off after use, it seems to last a very long time. I have a Fastfire I on a Buckmark that gets at least 2 hours of use every time I go to the range (at least 3 times a month). I have had the same battery in the Fastfire I for 3 years now.

I have a Fastfire II on my AK and it works for me. I don't require a co-witness, but I will probably be buying one of the ADM quick-release mounts for it. Again, I have not had any battery issues, but this rifle gets shot much less than the Buckmark that wears the Fastfire I. I think the most logical argument against the Fastfire (both versions) is going to be their ability to take abuse. I have no doubt that they would break much easier than any Aimpoint.

I find the Fastfire II to be a good optic for what it is, a waterproof Mini Red Dot sight that costs less than half of an Aimpoint or EoTech. I hope that when LaRue redesigns their mount to accept the FFII that they make sure to leave the area surrounding the light sensor uncluttered. This particular area has caused some problems and has given the Fastfire an undeserved reputation for poor low-light performance.

 

[Coronach]

My main complaint is that I have pulled it out of my car twice now and found it with a dead battery. This is NOT a huge deal for a fun gun, which is where it resides now. It is a little more of an issue on a serious gun. And, the fact that you have to take the optic off of the gun to change the battery is just chock full of suck.

A secondary compaint is that the mount did not seem to be all that solid on the first AK. It would wiggle back and forth if you pressed it from the sides. It always seemed to return to center, and the gun in question is not exactly a precision instrument, so it wasn't a huge deal to me. Once I put it on the second AK, I noted that there was no wiggling. I attribute this to the "ears" of the sight base being slightly closer together, and just allowing no flexing of the mount. So, happy day- it actually fits better on the second gun. Note: this is no fault of the FastFire, but it is something to consider for people buying an Irondot...it might wiggle on your AK, or it might not.

A third complaint is just a general "the sight doesn't seem that robust", though I admit I haven't bashed it around to see. It seems to be more "water resistant" than water proof. Again, this is NOT an issue on a fun gun, which is where it resides now.

So, there you have it. I think the Irondot is great on a fun gun. It's not cut out for a weapon, IMO. Even so, it will probably work. I switched to an Aimpoint Micro, which I know will work (but is accordingly priced, ouch). YMMV.

Mike

 

[boricua9mm]

Thanks for the clarification. I agree that your concerns should be heeded. I think that given the nature of the AK's wide variance in tolerances and specs, the IronDot mount is a tough project for LaRue.

For the record the Fastfire I ( found in the LaRue AK IronDot) is definitely NOT waterproof, and I wouldn't even consider it water resistant. The Fastfire II has addressed the problems with the first model's open circuitry.

 

[DMK]

1. Russian
2. Approved for use on the weapon by M. Kalashnikov
3. Parallax free
4. Multiple reticles
5. Quick detach
6. Black finish to match the rifle
7. Waterproof
8. Smells like Vodka

You got me there. I know of no other sights (Russian or not) that were recommended by Kalashnikov or smell like Vodka.


On a serious note, you raise a good point. One needs to determine what is important to them, research for themselves and compare specs. Just picking what someone else uses may not be appropriate for you. Personally, only three of those points are important to me and only two of those are deal breakers. On the other hand, battery life, co-witness and toughness were not mentioned.

 

[DMK]

I have an Irondot that I have just rotated out of service on my "serious" AK and moved to my plinker.

I think it is a very good optic for a fun gun, but not acceptable for use on a defensive weapon. The problem is the optic itself, not the mount. Hopefully, the redesign of the optic will improve the overall setup. I'm unimpressed with the battery life and the method of changing it is sub-optimal.

For the record the Fastfire I ( found in the LaRue AK IronDot) is definitely NOT waterproof, and I wouldn't even consider it water resistant.

That's good to know. I was considering one of these for a .308 Saiga. The barrel is too thick for an Ultimak to fit and the TWS rail does not allow my Aimpoint to cowitness even with rings so low that I can't fit the lens cap on. Maybe I'll just skip the irondot, find some lever release rings for the Aimpoint and call it done.

 

[jpwilly]

I just mounted this Kobra and will have more info once I get out to the range:

 

[Coronach]

DMK:

you sure that the Ultimak won't fit? They have a Vepr model that can accomodate the Vepr's thick barrel. I'd call and ask before you write it off.

Mike

 

[StorkPatrol]

Looking at jpwilly's picture, I'm pretty sure that Kobra would smack me in the shooting glasses under recoil. I very often get scratches on my shooting glasses from getting my face too close to the nub on the back of the dust cover. That blocky back end of that Kobra unit would definitely get in my face. (I'm 6'4" and lanky.) I'm actually thinking about swapping to an after market "NATO length" stock as is. --Stork

 

[DMK]

you sure that the Ultimak won't fit? They have a Vepr model that can accomodate the Vepr's thick barrel. I'd call and ask before you write it off.

I didn't know they had one that fits the Vepr. I don't see it on their website. I'll take some measurements and ask them.