AK red dot setup

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Looking at jpwilly's picture, I'm pretty sure that Kobra would smack me in the shooting glasses under recoil. I very often get scratches on my shooting glasses from getting my face too close to the nub on the back of the dust cover. That blocky back end of that Kobra unit would definitely get in my face. (I'm 6'4" and lanky.) I'm actually thinking about swapping to an after market "NATO length" stock as is. --Stork
Here's another Kobra shot (this is the slightly slimmer coin-cell model, the BKP-8-02):

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It is definitely intended to be shot from a "heads up" position. If you get head-down on it, you'll be staring at the back of the sight, not the lens, as the sight is quite tall (lens center is 3.8 inches above the bore axis). I like mine, but you might like an optic on an Ultimak forward rail better. If you can afford it, an Aimpoint Micro on an Ultimak, positioned just ahead of the rear sight, is the lightest and most robust option.
 
I went with a Bushnell TRS-25 (it's a clone of the aimpoint shown on the rainy table) on an Ultimak:

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I really am impressed with the Russian optics though, I bought a POSP 4x24 from Kalinka Optics for my 7.62...It's got an illuminate reticle, 400mm rangefinder, all steel built like a god damn tank, and it was only $169. If I had to do it again I'd go with Russian red dot for this gun too.
 
Ultimak/Aimpoint fan here. Right now, its the best all around and usable set up going.


Looking at jpwilly's picture, I'm pretty sure that Kobra would smack me in the shooting glasses under recoil.
I know it would smack me, and its the biggest complaint about the Kobras I have. If your accustomed to shooting iron sights, with your head down and forward (as you should be), your nose will be at, or just along side the top cover. The Kobra will definitely be giving you a smack.

Just to add to it, they are mounted way to high, and also in your way, field of view wise, and block your vision. Any hope of natural shooting goes right out the window.

The Kobras are well made, like most other things Russian, they just have a crappy mounting system and location.

The biggest advantage to the Ultimak/Aimpoint set up is, your rifle still shoulders and shoots like it did with the irons alone. You still get the same basic cheek weld, and the iron sights are right there for instant use with no though and a simple shift in focus, from the dot to the sights, in the odd chance the Aimpoint were to go down.

I'm actually thinking about swapping to an after market "NATO length" stock as is.
I'd resist the urge until you find a good dot set up. The standard length AK stock is the proper length, and really isnt "short". It has the same LOP as most other combat type rifles, as well as any working type rifle used in a capacity other than static, bench type shooting. Once you lengthen the stock, I think you will find it annoying, unless you do all your shooting seated at a bench.
 
The Kobras are well made, like most other things Russian, they just have a crappy mounting system and location.
That's the thing. Every optic mounting option on the AK has a tradeoff. The siderail has to sit high or else you can't get the top cover off without removing the sight. The Beryl type flip up mount over the top cover adds the bulky latching system to the rear of the top cover (gets in the way when you are trying to snuggle down on the stock), plus that's one more thing to get out of the way if you need to remove the top cover for any reason. The Ultimak setup seems to be the best ergonomically and allows the lowest mount (also gives you a good place to mount a light), but adds weight out front and is only good for a red dot or LER optic.

There is no one right answer for everyone. It depends on what the individual wants and what they are willing to give up or put up with.

Kalishnikov just never intended his rifle to mount optics. Stoner didn't either, but the AR/M16 break open design did better lend itself to a rail on top that didn't interfere with the the operation or handling of the rifle.
 
I've been using ML2's on the AK's I have Aimpoints on since the Ultimaks first came out, and at this point, I dont find the slight weight difference to really even be noticeable. You have to keep in mind, the Ultimak actually weighs less than the hand guard it replaces, so what your really comparing weight wise, is not even the full weight of the sight itself, so things cancel each other out to some extent.

Even with the sight mounted most of the way forward (thats where I prefer mine), balance is good, with the balance being right at the front of the mag, and on the plus side, any slight bit of extra weight only aides in steadier holding and dampening muzzle rise. As far as handling goes, I really see no noticeable change in how the gun handles between my AK's with the dot, and my Ak without the dot.


I think DMK is right in respect to there being no real "correct" answer here, its all going to depend on what you want out of the gun, and what you can afford or want to spend in trying to get there.

Cost does often play a big role in the decision, as does lack of experience with the different set ups, which itself is usually a direct result of cost.

If you have the opportunity, try as many different set ups as you can, and make a reasonable and realistic choice based on that, and then work towards what you want.

No bias here or nothing... :D but your going to want the Ultimak/Aimpoint once you shoot that combo...trust me.
 
^^^ He's right. I went through several iterations of optics trying to avoid doing that (due to $$$), and it's what I ended up with. Nothing else works as well for a RDS.

Mike
 
I got a PKS-01 red dot for sale if anyone is interested. Very rare Russian special forces model. Never meant for import. Only about 60 in the entire US.

Need a guitar so it's up for $250.
 
You have to keep in mind, the Ultimak actually weighs less than the hand guard it replaces, so what your really comparing weight wise, is not even the full weight of the sight itself, so things cancel each other out to some extent.
You mean lighter than the original gas tube handguard combo right?

I need to weigh mine on my postal scale. I have a CompC3 which seems like it's considerably heavier than the little H1 you have. I wonder how much it actually adds when you subtract the weight savings of the aluminum Ultimak.

I'll tell you what, the Ultimak lower rail adds considerable weight. With rail covers, that thing is a full 1lb hanging off the barrel.
 
Forgot to add - it mounts to the optic rail on the side of the rifle and is offset to the left. Check 'em out at tantal.com. It's sweet. I bought it for $600 less than a year ago.
 
Yup, I was talking about the upper rail that replaces the upper hand guard. I dont have the lower rails on my guns.

I have Comp ML2's on my AK's, which arent much different size wise than the Comp C series. I'd like to update to some of the newer, smaller sights at some point, but mine work fine and I really dont see spending the extra money right now. Maybe if I have a windfall. :)

This is my old SAR1 with the Ultimak/ML2....

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I'm sorry AK103K, I got you mixed up with amprecon who posted some pics of his new H1 Aimpoint/Ultimak setup a little while ago.

I'm with you. The Aimpoint Micro is sexy looking and a little lighter, but I'm not all that sure it's light enough to justify an extra $100-200. Plus it seems to me the tube size is considerably smaller. I'm not sure I'd like such a small optic.


Nice camo job BTW!
 
I just receievd my very first AK. It's an arsenal saiga sGL 21, which comes with a picatinny rail. Can someone explain to me the difference between an ultimak rail and a picatinny rail?? Everyone here seems to think that a micro aimpoint goes hand in hand with an ultimak. can one be mounted on a picatiny??

I am not very knowledgeable as far as optics/rail systems are concerned, so I appologize if the questions I pose are of the general know how nature to most members.

I am being offered a decent deal on a combo of an Eotech XPS3 and a 3 x Eotech magnifier with a flip to side mount. Is this eotech combo at all compatible with an AK platform ??? I know thta the magnifier wont make any sense on the picatiny rail hanguards...but can this combo be mounted on a BPO sidemount?

I am a bit nearsighted and just cant understand how a standalone red dot all the way out there over the barrel will work for me even for CQB type of target practice...
 
I assume this is a picatinny rail replacing the top handguard?

let's break it down bit by bit...
Can someone explain to me the difference between an ultimak rail and a picatinny rail??
"Picatinny" refers to a type of rail (another type is Weaver), it is the standard milspec rail system in use today. The rail you are describing probably replaces the upper handguard on the AK. As such, it will sit higher than the rail section on the Ultimak. The Ultimak is a section of picatinny rail mounted on a replacement gas tube. Basically, you remove the front handguard an the gas tube from the AK and put the Ultimak mount in place of those parts. The advantage is that it allows the optic to get as low as possible, which is important because of the way the ergonomics on the AK work. Anything that puts the optic up further than the Ultimak tends to make you lift your head up to see through the sights. It's not the end of the world (as evidenced by the fact that Russian special forces seem to shoot OK with their oddball sights), but some people really don't like it (myself included).

Everyone here seems to think that a micro aimpoint goes hand in hand with an ultimak. can one be mounted on a picatiny??
Yes, since they both use the picatinny rail interface. However, the sight will sit high enough that you will not have proper position on the stock with your cheek, and the optic will block the iron sights, since it is sitting higher. Neither of these are the end of the world, but neither are as ideal as the Aimpoint/Ultimak combo.

I am not very knowledgeable as far as optics/rail systems are concerned, so I appologize if the questions I pose are of the general know how nature to most members.
No need to apologize. Everyone starts somewhere.

I am being offered a decent deal on a combo of an Eotech XPS3 and a 3 x Eotech magnifier with a flip to side mount. Is this eotech combo at all compatible with an AK platform ???
Yes, but there will be some issues.

1. The eotech will sit even higher, due to the fact that the window for the optic is atop the optic, as opposed to tube-type sights, which can be very low to the rail.

2. The magnifier won't work on the handguard due to eye-relief issues.

I know thta the magnifier wont make any sense on the picatiny rail hanguards...but can this combo be mounted on a BPO sidemount?
probably, but I'm not sure. And the sidemounts are even higher.

I am a bit nearsighted and just cant understand how a standalone red dot all the way out there over the barrel will work for me even for CQB type of target practice...
TRUST ME, it works. It works REALLY well. You look at the target and just superimpose the dot over it, then pull the trigger. if you can see the target, you can use the red dot, no matter whether it is up close or far out on the nose of the rifle.

Mike
 
Mike:
I really appreciate your insight.


Mow I am a bit ticked off that arsenal would make something that makes little sense given the AK's specs vis a vis the avilable optics. It is, however, totlaly my fault, for not researching this issue to begin with.

They have detailed pic's of what I bought on http://www.k-var.com/shop/product.php?productid=17049&cat=329&page=2

If you dont mind taking a look, can you give me your opinion as to whether the situation is as you suspected i.e. that the picatiny rail that I have will make any red dot set up sit too high?

If that's the case, I will probably have to consider geting a side mount with a Russian Posp and will use the picattiny rail to add flighlights and maybe a grip pod...that way I get at least some use out of this "patent pending" pile of ...

K-var descibes this picatiny set up as a " U.S. made durable black aluminum upper and lower handguards with Picatinny rails, U.S. made double stage fire control group, 1000m rear sight, cleaning rod, scope rail."

Another question slightly off topic...I played around with the safety and as soon as I fliped it to and from the fire and safe position, the safety scraped the black finish off the rifle...is this normal for all AK's?? I certainly havent seen this in my ARs.... maybe I am being a bit OCD here, but I am beginning to wonder if I made a good purchase here.
 
"Too high" is relative. LOTS of people use and like the Kobra sight, which to me is practically up in the stratosphere. If I already owned that rifle, I would have no issues with plopping an Aimpoint on the picatinny and calling it done. I would just want some quick-detach method of getting rid of it, since it will block the irons. No biggie. It'll work. Worst case scenario is you get a cheek piece to move your eye up a little. Best case is you don't mind the extra height and you really don't care. I would not like an Eotech on that setup, but an Aimpoint (Comp series or Micro) should be OK. I would go with that setup over anything on the side rail.

As far as the safety scratching the receiver, they all do that. Don't worry about it.

Mike
 
I have experimented with several optic-setups on my Romanian AK and this is what I have found:

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Two Romanian AK's with Russian optics on siderails. The top is my bro's before he put the Ultimak on it, wearing my PK-AS-V. The bottom is mine with the Kobra EKP-1S-03M mounted.

I initially put a PK-AS-V on the siderail. This is a tubular red dot sight with a circle dot reticle. They appear black like a normal scope when not illuminated. When illuminated, the center dot glows red. The center dot is about 2 MOA, the outside ring was around 50-something MOA, IIRC. It is very fast while still allowing decent precision. It seemed fairly durable as well. Now the cons; the optic sits too high to allow a proper cheek weld with pretty much any stock setup. The PK-AS has external adjustments, and requires the optic be removed from the rifle to access one of the adjustment knobs. The adjustment knobs are only marked in Russian and they lack the tactile clicks of Western optics. This makes it much more difficult than Western optics to properly zero. Finally, it doesn't have the battery life of some American optics and once mine went dead, I have been unable to get the sight to work. I have bought several of the '357' style batteries the manual said would work, and they don't. The reticle is still visible without being illuminated, but as of now, mine is a dot sight, not a red dot sight.

I'd give it a 2.5 out of 5 stars overall.

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View through PK-AS across ~12 foot bedroom.

I replaced this optic with a Kobra EKP-1S-03M, which is the newer AA battery model. This model sits lower than the PK-AS-V, allowing for a better cheek weld. It has multiple reticles, though I've just put mine on the chevron and left it pretty much since I got it. Replacement batteries actually work for this optic, and as it requires common AA batteries, they are easy to find. It also has internal adjustments, which makes it easier to zero, though you will still have to read Russian. I've taken mine out in the snow to play a little, but have no experience with the rain/washout issue.

Mine has been pretty solid and I definitely rate this set up higher than the PK-AS-V--call it a 3.5 out of 5 stars.

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View of 16" wide torso target at 50 yards through Kobra with chevron reticle.

Overall, the siderail mount has been fast and repeatable for me. It is a decent setup, and as the Russian siderail optics are of decent quality, they represent a great value. Most of them can be had for ~$200. I have yet to see an American optic with similar features and quality at the same price. However, one thing that bears consideration is that if your receiver isn't square, it can bring the rail far enough out of alignment that is it difficult to zero the optic. As my WASR was assembled by Century's barely literate poorly trained monkeys, I have encountered this problem. The PK-AS was simply a PITA to zero. The Kobra would have been simple, but I ran out of windage adjustment trying to get it on @ 100 yards. The rifle groups respectably for a rifle of its type--about 4 MOA, but I can't adjust it the 2 to 3 MOA to the right that I need to in order to get it properly zeroed. While this isn't an issue at across the street distances, it quickly becomes an issue as you reach 100+ yards.

This leaves me with forward mounted optics options. I ordered an Irondot, but it was so backordered I canceled my order. My brother has an Ultimak with an Aimpoint CCO on it. This is really a great setup. It is low enough to co-witness, something none of the siderail mounted setups can claim. It is rugged and repeatable. However, it heats up. The Aimpoints can take the heat, some of the others, not so much. The Aimpoint, is an excellent candidate for the Ultimak for its durability as well as its battery life, which is exceptional. The 2 MOA dot is fast while providing enough precision to reach out to 200+ yards. It zeroes easy and the Ultimak keeps its zero. Unfortunately, this set up costs nearly 3x as much as the siderail setups. I feel it is worth it, and if I ever get around to replacing the Kobra on my AK, it will be an Ultimak/Aimpoint T1 setup. Of the setups I've seen, it is by far the best thing going for the AK.
 
Slightly off topic, who sells the best 7.62X39 ammo online for the best price? I am looking to take my new arsenal aK out to the range in the next week and would like to buy decent ammo (500 or 1000 rounds) over the internet. will appreciate nay advice.

Also, what slings do you guys recommend for these beasts? I am used to single points for ARs that allow the rifle to just hangle the with the grip at waist level, but the AKs seem to be made for 2 point slings only? Is there any way to put a single point on an AK?
 
Accuracy wise, I've always had the best luck with the old Barnaul 125 grain SP's. I still have a bunch, so I havent had to really look elsewhere. Its my understanding that the Brown and Silver Bear labels are actually Barnaul, but I dont really have any experience with them.

Wolf can be very hit or miss, and seems to vary a good bit from lot to lot. I got some Wolf 154 grain SP's from Sportsmans Guide a few years back that was very good though.


As far as the slings go, I've always liked the issue Russian web slings the best. They are well made of heavy canvas, easily adjustable, and long enough to be used in a number of ways. I usually just slip the sling around my neck, like an MP40 or similar. You can also slip an arm through and still easily shoulder the rifle. When you let go, it drops off to the left side (assuming a right hand shooter).

I've seen some single point type slings available for the AK's. Some looked OK, some not. A lot will probably depend on where your sling swivels are on the gun. The side mounted rear swivels on the full stocks, or the placement of the swivel on the folders would probably work best.

My SAR and WASRs swivels were mounted on the bottom, so I moved them to the side in the same position as rear swivel on my Saiga.
 
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